Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by Art Morte on Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:47 pm

I just wonder would Sturridge accept playing out wide in a 4-3-3. Along with Coutinho he's our best player running at defenders. We need some of that, imo. Clyne and Moreno providing width isn't enough.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by Natalie Portman on Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:20 pm

How was is Sakho by the way ?

I wouldn't trade him for any CB in the world. I love the bloke. My favourite player by far. A true soldier, and not a cry baby who goes missing when things don't go his way.


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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by Don't call me James on Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:32 pm

@Art Morte wrote:I just wonder would Sturridge accept playing out wide in a 4-3-3. Along with Coutinho he's our best player running at defenders. We need some of that, imo. Clyne and Moreno providing width isn't enough.


We don't play 4-3-3 under Klopp though. For all intensive purposes it's 4-3-2-1.

The 2 behind the striker never go wide. It's the fullbacks and the 2 CMs (Can and Milner) from the three that go wider when space is there.

So Sturridge can certainly play as one of the 2 behind Benteke with Coutinho or Firmino as the other guy.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by Don't call me James on Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:33 pm

@Unique wrote:we wont see the team improve until we have a fit squad. we are missing our big players. just having a fit Henderson and sturridge will make the world of difference for us. plus klopp is still having a look at some players.


The team is already improved. How can anyone not notice the improvements after the absolute dross David Brent put us through so far this season. There is clear instruction and direction in our play now along with better mentality. Those 3 things Klopp has done well to implement in only 12 days or whatever.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by iftikhar on Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:01 pm

@Art Morte wrote:
Ifty wrote:Also, I'm beginning to accept that our squad is average, except a few.

Not really, Rodgers just effed up by making the squad too homogeneous. A lot of our players are good at their roles, but too many of them share the same preferred role.
Yes, that's one way to look at it. Also, since it's only two games under Klopp; he haven't figured out the best tactics with the squad. But I had such high hopes with Milner, Lallana and Coutinho under him that it feels a bit underwhelming.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by Art Morte on Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:27 pm

@Don't call me James wrote:
@Art Morte wrote:I just wonder would Sturridge accept playing out wide in a 4-3-3. Along with Coutinho he's our best player running at defenders. We need some of that, imo. Clyne and Moreno providing width isn't enough.


We don't play 4-3-3 under Klopp though. For all intensive purposes it's 4-3-2-1.

The 2 behind the striker never go wide. It's the fullbacks and the 2 CMs (Can and Milner) from the three that go wider when space is there.

So Sturridge can certainly play as one of the 2 behind Benteke with Coutinho or Firmino as the other guy.


On the other hand the reason we've played 4-3-2-1 in the first two games could be that we've got no good wide players. Could be that we see a change of formation when we have Sturridge and Benteke back.

Also the fact how easily Coutinho has been shut out of the games lately makes me think that trying both him and Sturridge out wide would be an interesting experiment:

Can - Lucas - Milner
Sturridge - Benteke - Coutinho

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by Curtinho on Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:50 pm

Just because it's a pet peeve of mine...it's not 'intensive purposes' it's 'intents and purposes'.

I would go:

Henderson - Lucas - Coutinho
Milner - Benteke - Sturridge

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by iftikhar on Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:38 am

Guys, I don't think Sturridge should be playing wide. Given his frailty, he should be protected as much possible and played at #9.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by Lucifer on Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:34 am

I agree he shouldn't be allowed to work hard rather should be fed properly given his injury reputation. Him playing wide especially in Klopp team not so good idea

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by donttreadonred on Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:45 pm

@Art Morte wrote:On the other hand the reason we've played 4-3-2-1 in the first two games could be that we've got no good wide players. Could be that we see a change of formation when we have Sturridge and Benteke back.

Also the fact how easily Coutinho has been shut out of the games lately makes me think that trying both him and Sturridge out wide would be an interesting experiment:

Can - Lucas - Milner
Sturridge - Benteke - Coutinho
I'm with Art on this one. I think the 4-3-2-1 is a means to an end, mainly for these reasons:
- As Art said, we simply have no confidence or quality in wide areas. Ibe is about the only natural wide player in the squad (excluding fullbacks). Milner can (and should) do a job on the wing. Beyond that... there's really no one.
- Klopp likes to play players in their natural roles. Does anyone else remember his quotes on Kagawa's misuse at United? It pained him to see a player he helped develop into a star misused and adapted simply to suit the manager's concepts rather than the player's own individual strengths.
- Prior to Rubin Kazan, Klopp had only had something like 4 full training sessions with the first team. This simply isn't enough time to groom players into different roles. So what do you do? Perhaps you put players into roles they are already familiar with.

Therefore, I would suggest that Klopp has adapted his typical approach so as to get the most out of the available players, playing who is fit in their most natural roles so as to alleviate the shock of the transition to a new style, new, formation, new ideas, etc.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by iftikhar on Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:28 pm

@donttreadonred wrote:
@Art Morte wrote:On the other hand the reason we've played 4-3-2-1 in the first two games could be that we've got no good wide players. Could be that we see a change of formation when we have Sturridge and Benteke back.

Also the fact how easily Coutinho has been shut out of the games lately makes me think that trying both him and Sturridge out wide would be an interesting experiment:

Can - Lucas - Milner
Sturridge - Benteke - Coutinho
I'm with Art on this one. I think the 4-3-2-1 is a means to an end, mainly for these reasons:
- As Art said, we simply have no confidence or quality in wide areas. Ibe is about the only natural wide player in the squad (excluding fullbacks). Milner can (and should) do a job on the wing. Beyond that... there's really no one.
- Klopp likes to play players in their natural roles. Does anyone else remember his quotes on Kagawa's misuse at United? It pained him to see a player he helped develop into a star misused and adapted simply to suit the manager's concepts rather than the player's own individual strengths.
- Prior to Rubin Kazan, Klopp had only had something like 4 full training sessions with the first team. This simply isn't enough time to groom players into different roles. So what do you do? Perhaps you put players into roles they are already familiar with.

Therefore, I would suggest that Klopp has adapted his typical approach so as to get the most out of the available players, playing who is fit in their most natural roles so as to alleviate the shock of the transition to a new style, new, formation, new ideas, etc.
Why are we discussing this in a match day thread  scratch ?

Anyway, I will dig in too  eco smile .

I don't think 433 would be a good option with our available resources. #1. Sturridge, with his given fitness record, isn't suitable an shouldn't be risked to cover wider/greater area. #2. Shifting Coutinho to wide area will deny us of any creativity from the central channels, on which both Benteke and Sturridge will thrive. True, he isn't been effective lately, but we can't expect any better from Milner, Henderson or Emre either. In my view, our most effective style/formation would be:
Mignolet
Clyne-Skrtel-Sakho-Moreno
Lucas-Milner
Lallana-Coutinho-Firmino
Sturridge

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by donttreadonred on Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:37 pm

@iftikhar wrote:Why are we discussing this in a match day thread  scratch ?
Good point... Wink

To bring it back to the Rubin Kazan match...

I have been hung up on the formation since watching the match, mainly because I don't think it worked for us, and I hope we change.

Even against 10 men (granted a fairly entrenched 10 men), we failed to break them down. Of course, had Benteke's shot nestled in the corner rather than smacking the post, we might have a very different feeling about this match.

In any case, I felt the formation (due to lack of form and reliance upon the wrong players) let us down as much as anything.
- A lot was asked of Origi. While he didn't create too much for himself, I thought his general play was okay without being outstanding.
- A majority of the attacking onus is on the two CAMs in this setup, and both were quite poor. Coutinho simply looked out of sorts. Lallana did his now typical turning and dawdling on the ball as runners and opportunities passed him. Granted, Lallana was the better of the two on the day, but he still seemed to waste the good positions he found himself in far too often.
- The CMs seemed too far apart to play collectively. in the 4-3-2-1, the 3 have to spread themselves across the pitch in order to cover the middle of the ground, with the added expectation of getting forward to support the attack. Can looked more at home in this role than Milner (who seemed to go missing, or at the very least stuck in two minds). Allen was pretty ineffective in the central, controller role, with Lucas looking far better once he came on.

The formation didn't really offer any natural width, and made it relative to defend once Kazan dropped into a low block, especially considering Coutinho's lack of form and LAllana's slow decision making. Had either been able to release Origi early, we might've been able to grab a winner (not unlike what happened for Benteke's "almost-goal").

In short, I'd very much like to see a change for the So'ton match. We need t bite-the-bullet and move Milner wide; drop Coutinho into the wide-left position to remove the onus on him, and allow him to tuck back into midfield more, where he looks more comfortable; and then play one of Firmino or Lallana behind Benteke in a true CAM/CF role. Something like this:
Benteke
Firmino/Lallana
Coutinho--------------------Milner
Can---Lucas
Moreno--------------------Clyne
Sakho---Skrtel
Mignolet

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by iftikhar on Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:00 pm

I think the sterility of our attack is more due to personnel than tactics. We simply don't have a Suarez-like player who can break down a packed defense. Someone with close control, who can work his way into the box (or draw fouls). Benteke could have been an option, offering strength in place of trickery, but he is still finding his foot.

Your assessment of Lallana is spot-on. I feel Emre has similar problems too. While he (Emre) covers a lots of ground, all that is wasted due to lack of delivery (delayed decision or poor pass).

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by donttreadonred on Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:38 pm

@iftikhar wrote:I think the sterility of our attack is more due to personnel than tactics. We simply don't have a Suarez-like player who can break down a packed defense. Someone with close control, who can work his way into the box (or draw fouls). Benteke could have been an option, offering strength in place of trickery, but he is still finding his foot.

Your assessment of Lallana is spot-on. I feel Emre has similar problems too. While he (Emre) covers a lots of ground, all that is wasted due to lack of delivery (delayed decision or poor pass).
I would agree.. for the most part.

I think our attack became sterile under Rodgers, because he relied on individual brilliance too much. He was very good at putting players in the right positions to perform. However, everything I've seen suggests that he relied on individuals to take the initiative in chance creation and conversion. This was all perfectly fine with individual brilliance in the team like Suarez, Sturridge, and even Sterling at times. However, remove those naturally creative and clinical forwards, and the goals dry up. We simply didn't/don't know how to break teams down.

Lallana is a great example of this, in that he has the skill to be an incredible player for us. However, he's not intelligent/creative/clinical enough to knit the play on his own. Midfielders, even very good ones (like Coutinho) will have trouble breaking down teams on their own, as they typically only create the chances. Someone else needs to finish them.

This is why I have faith in Klopp. He has shown the ability to install a system/way of playing that is capable of winning with overall team quality, and not individual moments of brilliance. We can see the early stages of this already with the pressing we've seen in the Tottenham and Rubin matches. Hopefully we see more today against Southampton.

In any case, this is why I'm less concerned about individual players (i.e. Sturridge's mystery injury, Henderson's broken foot, etc.) than I would be under Rodgers. I think we will begin to see more goals dispersed throughout the squad, and less reliance on individuals as Klopp has time to affect change in the squad and the players.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:35 pm

@Curtinho wrote:
Anyway, has Klopp ever played a diamond? I feel with our current players that would be by and far the best formation to use.


There you go.

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by Helmer on Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:47 pm

bah Gawd, Hans's memory :bow:
I also felt yesterday, I heard about this diamond somewhere Laughing

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

Post by Curtinho on Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:27 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Curtinho wrote:
Anyway, has Klopp ever played a diamond? I feel with our current players that would be by and far the best formation to use.


There you go.


He finally listened to me and we won 6-1.

I should apply for my coaching licence. hmm

Clyne - Skrtel/Toure - Sakho/Lovren - Moreno
Lucas
Henderson/Milner - Allen/Can
Coutinho/Lallana
Sturridge/Firmino - Benteke/Origi

Ibe easily fits in too, and it's an easy formation to play around with in terms of switching to a 4-3-3. I just think the 3 midfielder base is so strong. Needs to address a back-up for the fullbacks and maybe another defensive midfielder to deputize for Lucas (though Rossiter is getting healthy again).

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Re: Liverpool vs. Rubin Kazan

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