CF Villanovense - Barcelona

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Post by FennecFox7 Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:29 am

Players develop at different rates though. You can't forecast how x player will turn out at only 20.. its not happening.

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Post by futbol Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:15 pm

FennecFox7 wrote:Players develop at different rates though. You can't forecast how x player will turn out at only 20.. its not happening.


IMO 20 (almost 21) is not a kid's age anymore like 16 where you could expect huge jumps in development (from stinking up the place against Villanovense to becoming Barca first team material). I have nothing to back this up, just my own impression from what I have seen so far in football. Great players usually were showing something with 20. I remember Thiago. He really stood out in every youth level I've seen him play. Has been twice the MVP when Spain U21 won 2 ECs. Obviously he had some flaws but in general you could throw him in a Clasico with 20 and he wouldn't stink up the place. Iniesta featured in 37 out of 38 league games when he was 20. Xavi was named Breakthrough Player of The Year with 19. Busquets I've already mentioned. Messi was compared to Maradona with 18. 20, 21 years of age is really when you should start to at least look like first team material.

Samper is showing some good flashes here and there but honestly: I don't see anything breathtaking in his game. I waited a long time to come to this conclusion because of the "next Xavi / next Busquets" hype but I felt that he doesn't stand out for a long time now.

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:37 am

futbol wrote:
FennecFox7 wrote:Players develop at different rates though. You can't forecast how x player will turn out at only 20.. its not happening.


IMO 20 (almost 21) is not a kid's age anymore like 16 where you could expect huge jumps in development (from stinking up the place against Villanovense to becoming Barca first team material). I have nothing to back this up, just my own impression from what I have seen so far in football. Great players usually were showing something with 20. I remember Thiago. He really stood out in every youth level I've seen him play. Has been twice the MVP when Spain U21 won 2 ECs. Obviously he had some flaws but in general you could throw him in a Clasico with 20 and he wouldn't stink up the place. Iniesta featured in 37 out of 38 league games when he was 20. Xavi was named Breakthrough Player of The Year with 19. Busquets I've already mentioned. Messi was compared to Maradona with 18. 20, 21 years of age is really when you should start to at least look like first team material.

Samper is showing some good flashes here and there but honestly: I don't see anything breathtaking in his game. I waited a long time to come to this conclusion because of the "next Xavi / next Busquets" hype but I felt that he doesn't stand out for a long time now.


You seem to be forgetting one tiny little detail. All those players were trusted by the coach and got innumerable chances to prove their worth, something which Samper has not got. You just mentioned that Iniesta played 37 matches at 20. That is because Rijkaard trusted him and gave him the confidence to play and improve. Same with Busquets, Thiago, Xavi etc etc. Busquets didnt magically one fine day play the CL final. Pep didnt decide on the day of the game,"HMM what do I do? I know,I will just play 20 year old Busquets in the CL final".
Pep played him throughout the season. Gave him the license and the confidence to fail early on. I know you are a revisionist. I am sure you are going to claim now that Busquets hit the ground running from day 1. Fact is that he had a lot of shaky games and plenty trusted Pep's judgment in giving Busquets playtime. There were also calls for Busquets to be dropped. Pep trusted Busquets and his confidence paid off big time.
Young players need the trust and confidence of the coach to thrive and improve. Enrique is a scrub who is single handedly destroying our youth setup. Whats Samper supposed to do? He sees scrubs like Rafinha, Roberto and Gumbau get playtime and yet he is stuck with the B. A scrub like Roberto has been getting chance after chance after chance despite stinking up the place every single time he sets foot on the pitch( a backheel which wasnt even that good to begin with doesnt impress me so dont even bother). Same with Rafinha( marginally better but still not good enough ). And then we have Gumbau.
How do you expect Samper to perform when he hasnt got a single chance? Ridiculous and idiotic logic from you.

Just look at Halilovic. If Enrique is to be trusted, Halilovic isnt good enough(while scrubs like Rafinha, Roberto and Gumbau are) . And yet he has been lighting up the place at Sporting.
See what confidence and trust from a coach can do for a player.

You dont know jack about spotting talented players or youth development. Neither does Enrique. He wouldnt know it if it hit him in the face. If he continues as the coach, then it would be the death of our youth system and we will keep losing the really talented players. While the hipster idiot will keep promoting the likes of Gumbau.

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Post by futbol Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:32 am

Trust? Players have to earn the trust. Otherwise youth development would be a game of rolling the dice, randomly "trusting" according to gut feeling and then seeing how it goes. If a players doesn't convince in training, doesn't show anything when he gets chances in the Copa del Rey against 3th division opponents and doesn't manage to stand out week in week out in the Tercera why would he deserve the trust of the A team manager?

Maybe you think you are more knowledgable than the guy who led Barca B to the 2nd division and then reached Barca B's best ever standing in the Segunda. And that's fine, you aren't the first and won't be the last Internet football expert. But for now let me put my money on Enrique's decisions and not on your opinions if that's okay for you.

Fact is that neither Iniesta nor Thiago nor Busquets and not even Rafinha or Sergi Roberto looked out of their depth against this level of opponent when they got newly promoted. Busquets was prone to playing some risky passes out of the back and had little flaws but he didn't look straight up unready against scrubs, losing every duel and chasing shadows like a little child against men. Never. Same with Sergi Roberto. Roberto's problem was that he didn't manage to shine or do something extraordinary but he also didn't look straight up bad and struggled in basic duels. He was just average.

If Samper isn't ready he isn't ready. I don't even see the issue here. He clearly isn't. He chases shadows against Villanovense. There is no connection to Gumbau. That's just childish polemics.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:40 am

Alex wrote:I am sure you are going to claim now that Busquets hit the ground running from day 1. Fact is that he had a lot of shaky games and plenty trusted Pep's judgment in giving Busquets playtime. There were also calls for Busquets to be dropped. Pep trusted Busquets and his confidence paid off big time.

Even after the CL final most of us couldn''t understand why he was selling Toure
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Post by futbol Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:48 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Alex wrote:I am sure you are going to claim now that Busquets hit the ground running from day 1. Fact is that he had a lot of shaky games and plenty trusted Pep's judgment in giving Busquets playtime. There were also calls for Busquets to be dropped. Pep trusted Busquets and his confidence paid off big time.

Even after the CL final most of us couldn''t understand why he was selling Toure


And to date it remains a stupid decision. Yaya's problem wasn't even Busquets. Yaya is not a DM and could've easily played alongside Busquets in CM, especially in 09/10 when Iniesta was injured throughout the season. But Pep went with Keita instead.

Lineup against Inter Milan:


Pedro Ibra Messi
Keita Xavi
Busquets
Maxwell Puyol Pique Alves
Valdes

Bench: Yaya.

Total minutes Yaya in 09/10: 2548

Total minutes Keita in 09/10: 3327

Could've easily kept Yaya and sold Keita and there shouldn't be a debate at all who the superior player is by far. But Pep had his Keita fetish.

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:54 pm

Basic duels. Well,if we want hustlers might as well stick a couple of marathon runners in the side. We already have one in Roberto.

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Post by free_cat Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:57 am

futbol wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Alex wrote:I am sure you are going to claim now that Busquets hit the ground running from day 1. Fact is that he had a lot of shaky games and plenty trusted Pep's judgment in giving Busquets playtime. There were also calls for Busquets to be dropped. Pep trusted Busquets and his confidence paid off big time.

Even after the CL final most of us couldn''t understand why he was selling Toure


And to date it remains a stupid decision. Yaya's problem wasn't even Busquets. Yaya is not a DM and could've easily played alongside Busquets in CM, especially in 09/10 when Iniesta was injured throughout the season. But Pep went with Keita instead.

Lineup against Inter Milan:


Pedro Ibra Messi
Keita Xavi
Busquets
Maxwell Puyol Pique Alves
Valdes

Bench: Yaya.

Total minutes Yaya in 09/10: 2548

Total minutes Keita in 09/10: 3327

Could've easily kept Yaya and sold Keita and there shouldn't be a debate at all who the superior player is by far. But Pep had his Keita fetish.


Agreed. It was a dumb move, especially considering Toure was so great everywhere, including CB where we lacked for seasons.

I'm certain that had we played Toure instead of Keita in 09/10 and Bojan instead of Ibra, we'd have another CL.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:05 am

Damn, I totally forgot about this debate and I missed it. Anyway, its fine, its like most of the time I agree with Alex and not Futbol.

Its not by fortune some clubs are really good at introducing young player and others are totally useless at it, talent is all over the place, you can find it any where, the differences are how they are used, what they are taught and the chances they are given to learn, fail and persevere.

We used to be one of the best at this, and its very sad that right now we are not.

Sadly our current coach has been corrupted by modern football's win-now and at all costs mentality which is only short term success and long term failure.

I will be sad to see Samper dominate at another club but unfortunately every year we are further removed from the vision of Cruyff and we become more like every other team in the world. Sadly this isnt even fought against by the fans, it is embraced. Its sad that important traditions which made Barca different are going and fans dont even care.

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Post by Lucifer Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:48 am

The Franchise wrote:Damn, I totally forgot about this debate and I missed it. Anyway, its fine, its like most of the time I agree with Alex and not Futbol.

Its not by fortune some clubs are really good at introducing young player and others are totally useless at it, talent is all over the place, you can find it any where, the differences are how they are used, what they are taught and the chances they are given to learn, fail and persevere.

We used to be one of the best at this, and its very sad that right now we are not.

Sadly our current coach has been corrupted by modern football's win-now and at all costs mentality which is only short term success and long term failure.


I will be sad to see Samper dominate at another club but unfortunately every year we are further removed from the vision of Cruyff and we become more like every other team in the world. Sadly this isnt even fought against by the fans, it is embraced. Its sad that important traditions which made Barca different are going and fans dont even care.

u sir cannot be more right. That's what I am saying for a time now. Lucho should take lesson from Mou what happens if u don't have plan for future. Mou sold some of the best young talents which he would die to have now in KDB, lukaku,shurrle etc. Don Vito Corleone aptly says " think of bigger  loss in future instead of  small profit of present " not in exact words but u get the point

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Post by futbol Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:15 am

Let's be fair. He's giving chances to Munir, Sandro, Rafinha, Sergi Roberto and has other youngsters training with the first team occasionally. What you mean to say is not that he is ignoring young players but that he is not (yet) promoting the young players which you personally like and that he's promoting the players which you don't like instead. That's a big difference.

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Post by eelir Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:51 am

futbol wrote:Let's be fair. He's giving chances to Munir, Sandro, Rafinha, Sergi Roberto and has other youngsters training with the first team occasionally. What you mean to say is not that he is ignoring young players but that he is not (yet) promoting the young players which you personally like and that he's promoting the players which you don't like instead. That's a big difference.



This season I agree, the past season was not like this one. But then again this season he had no chance to do it otherwise due to injuries and Vidal and Arda not being able to play. Let's wait and see when Arda and Aleix are allowed to play and see how much chances will Masia get. Plus, let's not forget the hints of signing Nolito or bunch of old farts when we have Halilovic beside the duo Sandro + Munir.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:48 pm

futbol wrote:Let's be fair. He's giving chances to Munir, Sandro, Rafinha, Sergi Roberto and has other youngsters training with the first team occasionally. What you mean to say is not that he is ignoring young players but that he is not (yet) promoting the young players which you personally like and that he's promoting the players which you don't like instead. That's a big difference.


I dont give him any credit for Munir and Sandro, because he has done them a poor disservice. He has totally thrown them into the deep end when they didnt even excel at Barca B. That's the opposite of good development. He has only used them because he has no other choice, no other players, so I have some sympathy..but I lose that when you throw out players who actually did something in Barca B before.

Rafinha and Roberto he has done very well to introduce. He have give them many chances to fail and try and come back. Imagine if he did this with more talented players.

Still, we are talking about a time where he has no choices here. Barca cannot make signings, of course he must use these guys. You dont get credit for using the single option you have.





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Post by Myesyats Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:27 pm

The Franchise wrote:Sadly this isnt even fought against by the fans, it is embraced. Its sad that important traditions which made Barca different are going and fans dont even care.


Socios are 60 old year farts. Of course they close their eyes before everything as long as season tickets are cheap. Non-influential fans like us do care about this but what can we do?

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Post by The Franchise Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:41 pm

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/members/fidelity-card/detail/card/commitment-card


Then wait 3 years and become an actual member I believe.

But I cant commit to coming to Barca even single year.
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Post by futbol Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:24 pm

The Franchise wrote:
futbol wrote:Let's be fair. He's giving chances to Munir, Sandro, Rafinha, Sergi Roberto and has other youngsters training with the first team occasionally. What you mean to say is not that he is ignoring young players but that he is not (yet) promoting the young players which you personally like and that he's promoting the players which you don't like instead. That's a big difference.


I dont give him any credit for Munir and Sandro, because he has done them a poor disservice. He has totally thrown them into the deep end when they didnt even excel at Barca B. That's the opposite of good development. He has only used them because he has no other choice, no other players, so I have some sympathy..but I lose that when you throw out players who actually did something in Barca B before.



Strange. Yet people slaughter him for not promoting Samper and thus not caring about youth development when Samper looks even more unready than Munir and doesn't excell one bit in the B team.

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Post by free_cat Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:45 pm

The Franchise wrote:http://www.fcbarcelona.com/members/fidelity-card/detail/card/commitment-card


Then wait 3 years and become an actual member I believe.

But I cant commit to coming to Barca even single year.


Bartu is a MOFO.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:49 pm

futbol wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
futbol wrote:Let's be fair. He's giving chances to Munir, Sandro, Rafinha, Sergi Roberto and has other youngsters training with the first team occasionally. What you mean to say is not that he is ignoring young players but that he is not (yet) promoting the young players which you personally like and that he's promoting the players which you don't like instead. That's a big difference.


I dont give him any credit for Munir and Sandro, because he has done them a poor disservice. He has totally thrown them into the deep end when they didnt even excel at Barca B. That's the opposite of good development. He has only used them because he has no other choice, no other players, so I have some sympathy..but I lose that when you throw out players who actually did something in Barca B before.



Strange. Yet people slaughter him for not promoting Samper and thus not caring about youth development when Samper looks even more unready than Munir and doesn't excell one bit in the B team.

Who told you this lie? Samper was one of the best players last season.

Munir didnt play for the B team hardly at all, Samper has been there for a long time and there isnt a player who screams he needs to be tested at a more difficult level more than Samper.

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Post by alexjanosik Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:22 pm

The issue is that talented players will want to leave.It has already started. Bellerin left, Grimaldo wants to leave(openly criticized Enrique). So does Samper I presume if things dont improve. Adama left and so did Deulofeu.
I am no expert on the youth team but these are probably the more talented youngsters to come out of the youth team in the past 2,3 years(certainly more talented than Rafinha, Roberto , Sandro etc).
free was calling Deulofeu a crack talent. Didnt even get a look in. He has attitude issues but thats what a coach is for. He is finally starting to look good under Martinez.
The next talented kid is the Korean. free considers him a crack too. Considering Enrique's track record, I highly doubt he will get a chance.
If Enrique persists with the status quo, the talented players will stop coming to us and if they are already here will want to leave.

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Post by futbol Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:08 pm

alexjanosik wrote:The issue is that talented players will want to leave.It has already started. Bellerin left, Grimaldo wants to leave(openly criticized Enrique). So does Samper I presume if things dont improve. Adama left and so did Deulofeu.
I am no expert on the youth team but these are probably the more talented youngsters to come out of the youth team in the past 2,3 years(certainly more talented than Rafinha, Roberto , Sandro etc).
free was calling Deulofeu a crack talent. Didnt even get a look in. He has attitude issues but thats what a coach is for. He is finally starting to look good under Martinez.
The next talented kid is the Korean. free considers him a crack too. Considering Enrique's track record, I highly doubt he will get a chance.
If Enrique persists with the status quo, the talented players will stop coming to us and if they are already here will want to leave.


lel

Bellerin left because of Enrique? Bellerin left in summer 2011 when Pep was coach. lmao

Samper wants to leave?

Sergi Samper: "Luis Enrique is treating the B-Team players very well. He's always giving me advice on everything. He watches all our matches. It's great to have the main coach care so much about us."

Adama left? Adama didn't leave because he wanted to leave. He was sold with a buyback option by the club. € 10M or what was it? Great business for someone who will not make it at Barca for the same reasons as Tello.

Deulofeu left? Deulofeu was transfered last summer alongside Rafinha and apparently Enrique saw something in him which he didn't like in preseason and got rid. Right or wrong, time will tell. But my prediction is he will not make it beyond being Everton quality. free_cat's opinions on homegrown talent, with all due respect, aren't objective. Pedro is better than Stoichkov ever was according to free_cat. Again, no disrespect.

And I'm the revisionist? Sometimes people seem to be forgetting this is Barca, not every hyped player will make it. As always time will tell who was right and who was wrong.

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Post by Myesyats Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:13 pm

Agree with futbol on everything as usual.

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Post by Lucifer Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:23 pm

linetty wrote:Agree with futbol on everything as usual.

Very difficult to disagree with that pos Proud

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Post by The Franchise Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:26 pm

Nope, time doesnt always prove anything. The destiny of these players are often changed forever, there are players who would never make it if not for the right situation.

If Pique is rejected by Barca and not brought back, who knows what career he has. If Cesc never left Barca maybe he wouldnt have been a fraud and learnt what a CM is. There are many if's and many things can change. If we are honest, if not for Pep, Valdes, Busquets and Pedro have totally different careers most likely.

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Post by futbol Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:51 pm

True quality always shines through. If Deulofeu has potential Barca quality why should he not be able to prove that at Everton where he is adored by the entire fanbase and coach and where he loves to be?

For Pique the argument might be different. Manchester United with prime Vidic and Rio was simply the wrong place for him to develop obviously.

Some people say Cesc failing to become a proper CM is because he moved to the Premier League. But that's bollocks to me. Wenger, especially Wenger in the mid 00s, was ahead of the rest of the Premier League with his tactics. He didn't play for Big Sam. I don't see how a 17 year old gaining experience in the Champions League against Juventus, Madrid and Barca destroyed his development but staying at Barca B, where he would have stayed a loooooong time with Deco, Xavi, Iniesta ahead of him, would have turned him into a proper player. If we're going down that route we can come up with a lot of conjecture. Maybe Bojan truly becomes Messi 2.0 if Pep doesn't ostracize him for Afellay. Who knows?

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Post by free_cat Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:21 am

futbol wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:The issue is that talented players will want to leave.It has already started. Bellerin left, Grimaldo wants to leave(openly criticized Enrique). So does Samper I presume if things dont improve. Adama left and so did Deulofeu.
I am no expert on the youth team but these are probably the more talented youngsters to come out of the youth team in the past 2,3 years(certainly more talented than Rafinha, Roberto , Sandro etc).
free was calling Deulofeu a crack talent. Didnt even get a look in. He has attitude issues but thats what a coach is for. He is finally starting to look good under Martinez.
The next talented kid is the Korean. free considers him a crack too. Considering Enrique's track record, I highly doubt he will get a chance.
If Enrique persists with the status quo, the talented players will stop coming to us and if they are already here will want to leave.


lel

Bellerin left because of Enrique? Bellerin left in summer 2011 when Pep was coach. lmao

Samper wants to leave?

Sergi Samper: "Luis Enrique is treating the B-Team players very well. He's always giving me advice on everything. He watches all our matches. It's great to have the main coach care so much about us."

Adama left? Adama didn't leave because he wanted to leave. He was sold with a buyback option by the club. € 10M or what was it? Great business for someone who will not make it at Barca for the same reasons as Tello.

Deulofeu left? Deulofeu was transfered last summer alongside Rafinha and apparently Enrique saw something in him which he didn't like in preseason and got rid. Right or wrong, time will tell. But my prediction is he will not make it beyond being Everton quality. free_cat's opinions on homegrown talent, with all due respect, aren't objective. Pedro is better than Stoichkov ever was according to free_cat. Again, no disrespect.

And I'm the revisionist? Sometimes people seem to be forgetting this is Barca, not every hyped player will make it. As always time will tell who was right and who was wrong.


You coming at me bro?

I'm probably the most knoweledgeable poster on our la Masia here, surely more than you, only because I get to watch our youth teams at Barça TV whenever I want. I always rated Deulofeu highly but since the begining I stated he had big flaws, mostly mental. I always thought he would improve them with age, but he has turned out to be an uncoacheable, lazy, dumb and unimprovable player.

I never said Pedro was better than Stoichkov, I said they are on a similar level, and I stand by it. Stoichkov was definitely much better than Pedro in his era, which makes him a far more important player. But taking them out of context, you can see there's not a huge difference between them. Stoichkov technical qualities were average by todays standards. Anyway, it was a boutade as it makes little sense to take a player outside their context as football improves and most attacking players from today are better than Puskas, for instances.
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CF Villanovense - Barcelona - Page 3 Empty Re: CF Villanovense - Barcelona

Post by futbol Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:23 am

free_cat wrote:

You coming at me bro?

I'm probably the most knoweledgeable poster on our la Masia here, surely more than you, only because I get to watch our youth teams at Barça TV whenever I want. I always rated Deulofeu highly but since the begining I stated he had big flaws, mostly mental. I always thought he would improve them with age, but he has turned out to be an uncoacheable, lazy, dumb and unimprovable player.

I never said Pedro was better than Stoichkov, I said they are on a similar level, and I stand by it. Stoichkov was definitely much better than Pedro in his era, which makes him a far more important player. But taking them out of context, you can see there's not a huge difference between them. Stoichkov technical qualities were average by todays standards. Anyway, it was a boutade as it makes little sense to take a player outside their context as football improves and most attacking players from today are better than Puskas, for instances.

Not sure if you are aware of this but Barca B games were available for free on the official LFP site before they got relegated.

It's also irrelevant even if you catched more games than me. Your 2nd paragraph sums up why watching games and players regularly still leaves you out of touch with reality. Laughing

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