SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:42 pm

Yeah, im surprised we are not even trying the diamond. Isco has been underperforming on the far right all season, and James returning looks almost as bad. He is not a winger, will never. If we cant play him in his n10 role, we might as well just sell him because he will continuously underperform.

i miss di maria ):

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by Valkyrja on Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:47 pm

Rafa's tactics also play a part in the fact that most players underperform. He won't try a diamond midfield because he likes to have players on the wing

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by vanDEEZ on Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:04 pm

@Valkyrja wrote:Rafa's tactics also play a part in the fact that most players underperform. He won't try a diamond midfield because he likes to have players on the wing


Absolutely.. And Rafa is too stubborn or idiotic to realize we don't have the players to suit his style. He needs to adjust or we will continue to get mediocre performances out of Isco, James, Bale etc so long as those players are played out of position

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:33 pm

well, he has to be thinking about + and - i guess. Our squad is not well built. We have a lot of quality players but that dont necessarily fit with one another.

So from the start, you know you will have unhappy players, underperforming players, players out of positions showing 1/2 their level, etc... and that's especially true with our attackers.

If we play a diamond midfield, width will become an issue for us. So we sacrifice overall team structure over improving James performances? that's as much a gamble as playing him right, hoping that he picks himself up and performs better, while keeping team structure.

If you think about it, we had those kind of issues last season. We were playing differently but Bale was not performing at all most of the time (scored a winner today and overall played good too), we had issues with James not showing his best level as well because he was being played in that half left space in midfield and it wasnt working well.

James had his best ever stretch for us when we were playing that 442 with isco and him on both side. they had freedom to go in and out and obviously we were playing two real strikers benzema-CR, rather than whatever we have right now.

I will continue to say, not to protect Benitez, that our squad is built like crap and we signed players who wont reach their potential in the shape we have now. That's not up to Benitez. Sure his team selection will impact who plays better but not all our players will reach their potential and there is nothing he can do about it

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:42 pm

Ranieri played James on the right in a 433 with a midfield of Toulalan, Kondogbia and Moutinho... and he looked fantastic.  Difference was that Ranieri had one of Fabinho or Kurzawa bombing down the flank for width and Toulalan covered the defense.

I just think Rafa doesn't really know how to think outside the box.  The line gaps and player triangulation schemes are HORRIFIC this season... far worse than last season.  That's all on coaching.

We only played like crap last season when Modric was out. He was the key as we have nobody to replace him and had no depth whatsoever. We have Kovacic and Casemiro to help this season too.

No excuse.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:52 pm

Benitez definitely has a lot of issues, just like most managers tbh with controlling the space and so on.

But you are rewriting history here to make Ranieri looks good and Benitez look bad. James at Monaco was the "star", he had an excessive amount of freedom to come in deep, to go inside and so on. Only, one moves with respect of his team mates. if James had freedom, it was because everyone else had tactical discipline, specially the other forwards.

Here we have to worry about CR going wherever he wants with no discipline, and Bale not being assigned tactical responsibilities so not to overwhelm is little brain. James on top of that cant move with as much freedom.

So the cross comparison doesnt work imo. We are too different, in way too different context, playing at a way higher level, to be compared. Not to mention that Monaco very very often was relying on a 442 or 4231 with a set double pivot, which makes a huge difference again

The only team where James played in a pure 433 was Porto, but he was young and inconsistent back then. James has enough quality with better form (he clearly is lacking some now) and more happiness to perform wherever you play him.

Now, Is James going to consistently look world class playing right wing day in day out? No. Will James reach his potential and lead our team playing RW? No. So that's the situation. Great players that hardly fit with one another and cause more headaches for our managers because we have never decided how we wanted to play, and we just sign players as they get available.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:54 am

He wasn't the star.... Ranieri benched for the first 2 months of the season. Falcao was the star with Moutinho. James was just a kid nobody knew about and people felt was bought for way too much. Only after he Falcao went down and Moutinho was struggling did James become the star... as i recall from Jan going forward.

If you remember, Monaco's Riviere strangely was on absolute fire to start the season and Ranieri was forced to switch to a 442. You had Germain/Carrasco getting most of the play with James benched next to those two. As Riviere cooled down and James got his act together, you went back to a 433.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:04 am

you are just saying exactly the same thing i did. He wasnt the star to start, then when he became that, he just took off. So we agree on that.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:16 am

Oh i loved him.  But the system wasn't set up to cater to him even when was starring.  Ranieri has his system and James found a way to star in it.  The key was that you had a fullback take defenders wide and a CF making runs inside... so they were creating room for James or anyone else.  We're not that organized and don't make runs to open space for others...  guys only make runs to get the ball or don't run at all.  Fullbacks are left between a rock and a hard place too because they get no defensive cover.  In fact, James was initially benched at Monaco for not covering...  he came back by covering like a demon.  Not quite like Di Maria; but he was doing the round trips hard.

I don't think we have a team concept...  haven't had one since Mou's first and second year when he was a dictator.  Even in Carlo's first year, we struggled A TON until Jan...  and lost the league.  We got it together for the cups.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by vanDEEZ on Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:53 am

Nick- to talk to your point regarding width and team structure:

What is the point of having such attacking outside backs in Danilo, Marcelo and Carvajal if it is not their duty to provide the majority of the width? That should be their job along with defending of course but it's not like any of them are brilliant at defending anyways.

If that is not enough then put Ronaldo on the right and Bale on the left so we don't have 2 wingers who cut in.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:22 pm

attacking fullbacks is like a norm now in modern football. It's part of things, yet it's tactical schemes that can create width.

And you know damn well CR is never going to ply on the right

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:39 pm

In fact, CR won't play on the left anymore either Laughing He parks himself in the box and waits for the ball Laughing

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by vanDEEZ on Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:11 am

Idk if width is necessarily the problem. I still think the gap between our defense and attack is too large and our midfield either gets caught too far up or too far back. That is the biggest problem for me.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:26 am

I am not saying we have a problem with width. I just think that width is a concern for Benitez as a coach, and with any scheme that he will create, he will have in mind. He is a manager that believes in strong wingers, as his valencia and liverpool days have shown.

Now whether our team is split in half whenever we play is another issue enterely, but that's mostly personel and the primadonas we have in attack

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:19 pm

Not really Nick... it's bad alignment of the 3 lines schematically. Our lines have never played this far apart so there's no reason why it is suddenly happening other than Rafa setting it up this way.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:27 pm

The gap in midfield is just as wide as its ever been under mou, and under carlo. Nothing has changed because we have kept essentially the same guys over the past 5 years in attack, or at least the eame type of primadonnas.

Lets be real here our forwards are lazy fckers. Tgings get marginally better or worse depending on who we are up against, what we are playing for or what not.

Its no surprise even benitez ditched his 4231 for a 433. He saw it, you can't force those guys to run back, they dont listen they don't care. He figured just like carlo its best to have a strong 3 mids to defend rather than 2.

The only think is that his understanding of the 433 and carlo's are completely different. And obviously one is better at working with creative elements than the other but even that we knew

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:05 am

I disagree. The line gaps are larger. We played a higher defensive line with Mou and that pushed the CMs up. Under Carlo, we either set up the block high or low depending on the opponent (whether we wanted to control possession or play the counter game).

Under Rafa, we play a low defensive line and a high strike line.... and an ocean for the CMs to cover. It's nonsensical. Where we don't have the talent advantage, it gets exposed.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by StrugaRock on Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:01 pm

Nah man, you've got it all wrong, under Benitez we play an advanced way of football, we play "free role", the catch? Everyone gets to play in his favorite position, with no tactical awareness, no defensive duties, so everyone to be happy

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by Adit on Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:00 pm

Agreed with sportzy. Our line seems even farther under Benitez. While Nick also has a point, our forwards were always been the same. They do press occasionally forward but running back to pick the player or aligning themselves with the midfield to make it difficult for opposition were never there. This is why it is important to offload CR, it will send a message to the other players.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by The Franchise on Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:09 pm

If I can opine on the subject?

I think at least in the Barca game, the midfield line had was too much space to cover and they were confused which line to even be closer to because staying in the middle was no mans land.

But those front 3 in that game did nothing and gave nothing. NOTHING.

Pressed for 10 minutes then seemed to decide that they dont want to get too fatigued or they cant do what they want with the ball.

James was in no mans land, caught in between pressing or supporting the midfield more.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:40 pm

It looked like a 4-2-4 Dani with the defensive line trying to play a high line at first....  but since there were only 2 CMs to cover the passing lanes and pressure the ball, that got torched.  Then they dropped back...  but the striker line stayed up on the pitch = massive gap.  

It was tactically comical to me.  Never had a chance.  We could have had the 11 best players at their positions in the world and we would have still gotten torched with that shape.

Per usual, Madrid doesn't realize it's a team game first AND THEN the individualists express themselves as part of the team concept.  Instead, we're compromising the team to facilitate the individuals who have no business being the pitch together to begin with.

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Re: SD Éibar vs Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:34 pm

There is no metric to measure that, it's all a matter of perception. To me the gap between offense and the rest of the team is as wide as it's ever been. During the last clasico it was comically bad.

But it's mainly the same thing because the guys we play forward as i said, are the same, and they generally have the same attitude towards defending. There have been times when things were better, that i agree, specially under carlo, but overall, if we are playing some scrub team away in la liga, the behaviours are consistently the same.

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