Barca now vs Pep's Barca

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:09 pm

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:I'd say:

1. Barça's attack under Enrique > Barça's attack under Pep

2. Barça's midfield under Enrique < Barça's midfield under Pep

3. Barça's defense under Enrique < Barça's defense under Pep

4. Barça's goalkeeper under Enrique >>> Barça's goalkeeper under Pep

5. Quality of football under Enrique < quality of football under Pep.

6. Efficiency under Enrique < Efficiency under Pep


Closing notes: Although, Enrique failed to win the sextuple unlike Pep, Barça now play more direct football, sort of a tiki-taka/counter hybrid with permission to shoot from long range.

I still think Pep's Barça is considerably superior to Enrique's...for the time being. But this could change over time depending on how well Enrique does in the next few years.

On a personal level, I think Pep is a much better tactician than Enrique.

Very nice comparison but that fourth point is unfair. Victor Valdes in his best days was very good and didn't leave us short in any way.

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:10 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
Pep team never got embarased in its prime like this team did vs Bilbao.

Did Pep ever play a cup final with three youth team players in the midfield? I do agree that Pep's team were perhaps never in a position where they could possibly get hammered. We saw such situations only after he left.


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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:16 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
You say you cant imagine this team struggling vs 10-11 Madrid and I can say I cant imagine that team getting assaulted like they did at Bilbao. It goes both ways.

Any way, more important is that is a horrible example. Your talking about a Mourinho team who played Barca over and over and over again until it found a solution. Common sense says if you play one team enough times you figure out ways to do it better.

Did they ever find a solution as such? Intimidation both on and off the pitch and negativity to it's maximum extent was their mantra. Only from 2012 onwards did they actually begin to match and even better us at football but it could be argued that was largely because we destroyed ourselves rather than them finding a way to get the better of us.

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:24 pm

@Bankz wrote:
Btw, there's no way in hell peps team annihilates madrid at their backyard WITHOUT MESSI.. Infact, if not for messi's late introduction in the game, barca would probably have had a manita against madrid that day. Things that can't be said bout peps team imo.

Pit MSN barca against peps barca then Manmark peps messi and the team gets confused but how do you stop MSN? save for some once in a life time flukish result ala celta vigo..

1. Pep's team did have a few great performances without Messi. The best that I can remember right now is how convincingly we beat Jose Mourinho's Inter Milan 0-2 in their own backyard in a XavIesta show.

2. MSN cannot be stopped? That's what we think right now but football tries to find a way around what works the best. Let's see how long MSN can remain invincible. If no one can find a way past MSN then as long as we are fully fit we should be winning the UCL again. However that has never been done which is why we have to tread with caution. Let's pick up this debate next summer again as to whether MSN is completely unstoppable or not.

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:28 pm

Pirloisjesus wrote:According to me this new version of Barca has face of Suarez all over it. He is main reason of our directness and counterattacking if he isn't in team that dimension does seem to be less effective. And we go from ruthless to toothless.

I have to agree with that. Suarez made this team, in a sense even more so than Messi.


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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:29 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:I think enough has been said about the differences between this team and that one in other threads.
That one was based on winning the midfield battle and creating numerical superiority all over the pitch among other things.
It was a thing of beauty and I havent nor will I ever see better football again in my lifetime.
This team is reliant on the individual brilliance of 2 all time greats in Messi and Suarez and an up and comer in Neymar.
That is it in a nutshell.

Very well put!!!

No wonder then that in the football media in those days it was the football of Barca that got so much appreciation while today appreciation is largely about the individual talents of MSN.

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by The Franchise on Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:44 am

@futbol wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
@futbol wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:What your saying futbol, just dont make sense.

Pep team never got embarased in its prime like this team did vs Bilbao.

They had difficult games of struggle, games where they couldnt break through and disappointing results like vs Inter. But I never felt the embarrassment and shame of that Bilbao game.

So I dont really want to hear this team is better at winning games and nostalgia is blocking our views. Thats a cheap cop out.

You say you cant imagine this team struggling vs 10-11 Madrid and I can say I cant imagine that team getting assaulted like they did at Bilbao. It goes both ways.

Any way, more important is that is a horrible example. Your talking about a Mourinho team who played Barca over and over and over again until it found a solution. Common sense says if you play one team enough times you figure out ways to do it better.

Of course this team wouldnt struggle like that, because that Madrid team would never have experienced it before.


I don't take a result like against Athletic Bilbao seriously in the grand scheme of things. It happened at the beginning of the season when the team was clearly still in holiday mood. That's not a measure of the team's capabilities. Enrique's teams tend to have a slow start to the season judging by Enrique's last 3 seasons (both Celta and Barca). Has been like that even when he was Barca B coach.

And im sure the volanco which hindered Barca's travel had an impact on the Inter game. These are either excuses or good reasons depending on what side of the fence your on.


That's silly, man. A team not looking match sharp at the beginning of the season is completely natural. Supercups and Community Shields are often seen as preseason games.

Traveling from Barcelona to Milan by bus takes about as much time as traveling from Munich to Hamburg. Laughing Spending a couple of extra hours in a luxury bus has surely not had such an impact. The team simply got wrecked by physicality and counterattacks the same way it did a year before against Chelsea (but Chelsea didn't capitalize while Barca's first shot on target in the 93th minute went in).

Hold on though. Why is it Barca were not sharp and Bilbao were? Do they play in Russia where they start the season 6 months early? No of course not.

You cant have these excuses, because you open yourself up to the same from the other side. You think the Volano is the only thing one could say? How about Iniesta not being there? how about Abidal not being there? and that left side being the one to get raped the whole evening?

How about the arguement this isnt even the best Barca team. Nearly everyone would say the team will Etoo or the team with Villa was considerably better than the team with Ibra.

Barca were not at thier best in both games, that can happen...and it can happen to any team. But dont turn them into a indestructible team like you claim the Pep nostalgia fans are doing either.
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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by The Franchise on Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:46 am

@futbol wrote:


In general I agree with this. Can't compare 4 years vs. 1 1/2. This team could still end up winning no more trophies or it could win back to back trebles. But that's what makes a discussion right now more interesting, doesn't it? Judging afterwards is always easier.

Sure. But discussion is one thing and making statements and claims is another.
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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by The Franchise on Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:47 am

@messixaviesta wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
You say you cant imagine this team struggling vs 10-11 Madrid and I can say I cant imagine that team getting assaulted like they did at Bilbao. It goes both ways.

Any way, more important is that is a horrible example. Your talking about a Mourinho team who played Barca over and over and over again until it found a solution. Common sense says if you play one team enough times you figure out ways to do it better.

Did they ever find a solution as such? Intimidation both on and off the pitch and negativity to it's maximum extent was their mantra. Only from 2012 onwards did they actually begin to match and even better us at football but it could be argued that was largely because we destroyed ourselves rather than them finding a way to get the better of us.


Solution probably not. But they found a way to make up for their gap in quality.
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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by futbol on Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:39 am

@The Franchise wrote:
@futbol wrote:


In general I agree with this. Can't compare 4 years vs. 1 1/2. This team could still end up winning no more trophies or it could win back to back trebles. But that's what makes a discussion right now more interesting, doesn't it? Judging afterwards is always easier.

Sure. But discussion is one thing and making statements and claims is another.


Well, then to make it clear. Everything I state here is my own opinion, I don't claim that to know the truth of course. Just how I see things.

The Athletic Bilbao example doesn't make sense because Athletic Bilbao is clearly not an opponent that sees eye-to-eye with Barca. The same way no Barca fan will brag about the 5-2 in their stadium last season or about wrecking them in the Cup final, the same way it's meaningless if they manage to win 4-0 in a glorified preseason friendly. Didn't we go there a week later and took all the 3 points with a clean sheet? The evidence is there that the 0-4 was a slip-up and not due to some fundamental struggles against their tactics or anything of that sort. So I don't feel ashamed or embarrassed to lose, same way I didn't care about losing 0-2 to Hercules Alicante in 10/11. It's not an important or big game.

No, Athletic Bilbao don't play in Russia. But for them the Supercup alongside the Copa del Rey is the only realistic silverware, for Barca it's a Mickey Mouse Cup. Chances that they are pumped up for this all summer while Barca players are having treble hangover are quite high.

The Inter example on the other hand makes sense for me because over the 4 years we've seen the same fundamental struggles against similar opponents. Most notably Chelsea and Real Madrid once Mourinho made them respectable again after the 5-0 but even teams like Milan where I didn't enjoy it at all to rely on getting 2 penalties to beat them.

It's bizarre for me that people say this Barca relies on individual brilliance. Surreal in fact. Enrique's Barca allows the frontmen to score "normal" goals by utilizing space like any other team in the world. Pep's Barca relied a lot more on players pulling rabbits out of their hats because we forced the opponents to have 10 defenders behind the ball at all times with the methodical buildup that had to be executed at all costs. Here is an average example, I don't even need to post the prime example (Messi goal vs. Madrid in the CL):



This isn't tactical mastery. This is Messi shrugging off one and slicing through 3 other defenders straight through the middle of the pitch with Alexis scoring from outside the box with 2 defenders on his shoulders. Tell me how this isn't "individual brilliance" par excellence. Laughing And I don't even want to talk about the individual brilliance that Xavi and Iniesta had to pull off each and every day to dominate the middle of the pitch in the fashion which they did.

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by futbol on Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:46 am

And here is Nesta summing up my thoughts from my last paragraph:

Nesta said that Messi made the difference. "With respect to the other great Barcelona players, I think Messi did at least 70% of the work tonight," said the former Italian international. "Whenever they struggled to make their possession tell, he made one of his runs, making it so difficult for us because he does it so many times during a game."

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=1779524.html

You can apply to this to countless games under Guardiola.

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by BarcaLearning on Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:19 am

Very interesting, although I generally sense nostalgia by some as as others have pointed out, I also cant help but feel people tend of overly praise Pep? Or at least seem to highlight his best parts and forget the bad parts which his team did have at numerous times and especially towards the end?

I so clearly remember so often with Pep's Barca that I got so frustrated and just couldnt believe how stubborn and one dimensional the team was, especially when oppositions clearly has worked out how to PTB and kept us out, but still we just tried to tika taka it around and 'waiting' for an opening which was asking a lot from Messi since as some already mentioned we didnt have the magic and ability of Suarez and Neymar, but still, I just felt Pep could have done something different/changed things in those scenarios, but he simply didnt, it was just to pure with any flexibility. I think at some points he did try to introduce some changes and try to evolve, but it didnt really work out.

Of cos though, the fact that he implemented the possession domination, the tactics at the time, the pressing and the identity of the team to play as it did was a huge achievement, and brought to the world this 'pure' form of football again, but again I say it had flaws, which was exposed in many big stages and games. Like the CL exits to Inter and later Chelsea, the latter was almost funny I felt because we got knocked out by a team that played so purely PTB and counter attacking (or some called it anti-football), over two legs too, and I remember reading somewhere that Pep made his mind up to quite largely due to the exit to Chelsea. Meaning as good as Pep
s football was, it was getting countered and being beatable by such oppositions (no offense).

So to now with Enrique's achievement of the treble and the team playing the way it is today, I feel such happiness to no longer feel frustrated, knowing the team is much more dynamic. Is it down to purely MSN? The better GK we have? (Btw I agree though Bravo is such a good GK, Valdes was, but always mistake prone, and u often felt he would make a mistake. Stegen Im still not very convinced), or whatever it is we are doing right nowadays, but surely it is some tactics or philosophy or whatever Enrique has been able to bring to the team. Any team would have weaknesses and this current team still does, but it must be little, or feels like that anyway Razz And on this point, what would be the way to beat Barca today? I guess thats what all the oppositions are trying to work out, it will eventually come, but I feel and hope that it would probably be more difficult than to beat Pep's Barca? Its all interesting to see what will come along.

No one has talked about Pep's current Bayern yet, that was also a side question I had, do you think Pep has 'evolved' a lot at Bayern? He seems to have, but still with his team having some of those weaknesses of the old Barca.


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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by Harmonica on Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:37 am

Exact same thing that happened against Bilbao after the treble, would've happened in 2011 after the double against Madrid in Supercup. Madrid completely dominated the game when Barca were still in holidays and drunk on success, but fat Messi still holding his slippers on gave the title to Barca. It was probably the most ridiculous performance in Clasico ever, completely against flow of the game.

EDIT: Just watched 2011 Supercup 1st leg match, SKY studio completely gobsmacked by the result at half time, Barca had 0 real chance's but 2 individual goals, and Real completely run over Barca, more than Bilbao did in the first leg.


Last edited by Harmonica on Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by danyjr on Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:16 pm

Very easy to compare the two, watch Barcelona vs Bayern last season. It was the most clear example of how different these two teams are.

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by The Franchise on Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:23 pm

@Futbol

I understand. Also dont get me wrong, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and can compare all they like, it doesnt truly bother me like that, but I have to make it clear my stance. Which is actually you simply cannot compare the two teams directly.

The only other thing I personally wanted to really say is, cut it any way you like and use any reason/excuse, that Bilbao game made me feel something I never once felt with a Pep team, and that feeling was shame and embarrassment. That is just me. Others maybe were not embarrassed and other maybe feel there was valid reasons to lose like that (though at the time, in that thread, that wasnt the main sentiment at all). But me personally, thats how I saw it.

And the Bilbao game isnt some outlier fluke game. Of course we didnt lose like that before or since...but there has been at least 25-30 games I actually hated watching because the football was so bad by our standards. There were not great Pep games too, but nowhere near as many games when the team was actually in its prime like this one is.

As for Nesta. I respect him alot but I dont take his opinion seriously at all. Simply put, I know clearly I watched more Barca games than he did so he cant convince me of something different.

When one of the players who actually played on both teams tells me this team is better, than maybe I can start to take it seriously. But the only comparison I ever heard was Xavi who was hugely complimentary of both but to me seemed to favour the old team and didnt want to say it because he was still a current member on this one.

I would like to hear him (or Iniesta, or Messi, or Alves or Busquets) compare the teams 10 years from now. I dont really think anyone else can move me with their opinion.
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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by futbol on Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:00 pm

Coincidentally, Alves' recent interview confirms what I wrote with regards to the beginning of the season.

Yes, when things begin to fit together and fall into place, there's even the possibility of scoring. We're very happy about that, it was hard in the beginning because we didn't have a pre-season, and this is not an excuse but a fact. As we pick up the pace and intensity of the game, we find the best version of ourselves.


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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by Bankz on Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:13 am

Alves also add that the team is now less predictable than before.

"Typically in January or February we hit a bad
patch, but this year we can win all that we did under Guardiola,” he added. “Pep delivered a revolution, and Luis Enrique has kept it going, albeit with a different playing style. Now we aren't as predictable".

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by Winter is Coming on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:49 am

@The Franchise wrote:This team is still evolving and isnt finished that process, we should wait and judge the totality of it before comparisons in my opinion.

I have my (obvious) opinions on my preferences, but still we must wait.

I wont answer the question regarding what has changed because it has already been well answered.



Not sure were Franchise went nowadays.

Anyways I think a good time to make a comparison since Enrique time is coming to an end?

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Re: Barca now vs Pep's Barca

Post by windkick on Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:24 am

They play absolutely nothing alike. Not sure what there is to compare.

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