The Level of Dutch Football in 2016

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The Level of Dutch Football in 2016

Post by Art Morte on Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:37 am

Their national team didn't make the EUROs, even though the number of participants went up from 16 to 24.

All their biggest stars (Robben, Sneijder, Van Persie) are over 30. Their successors are guys like Depay, Wijnaldum, Lens and Luuk De Jong.

Ajax are looking unlikely to progress from a CL group that has Fenerbache, Molde and Celtic with them.

And now I've just noticed that a 35-year-old Dirk Kuyt is second in Eredivisie's scoring chart with 11 goals in 14 games for Feyenoord. (Kuyt Proud )


How big a slump is Dutch football in and are they going to improve again or is this the new norm for them?
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Re: The Level of Dutch Football in 2016

Post by futbol on Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:36 pm

They are the equivalent of Bundesliga without Bayern. (:

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Re: The Level of Dutch Football in 2016

Post by zigra on Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:50 pm

I'm not sure what you want to talk about. The dutch league or the dutch national team?
The dutch league is crap. Has been for a while. And it won't change anytime soon.
However with the national team things are a bit different. The fact that even the biggest dutch clubs can easily be outspent by midtable teams from bigger leagues forced them to change their ways. Focus even more on the youth. And as players leave the league younger than before it means the clubs can give more youngsters a chance.
The current national team is poor, but it's because the generation that should peak right now was crap and/or ruined by injuries. Stuff like that can happen from time to time, especially for smaller countries.
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Re: The Level of Dutch Football in 2016

Post by titosantill on Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:40 pm

dutch football used to be the middle man. young talented guys play there, develop and move on. with the money in football now, and rise of bigger rich clubs, the middle man is slowly fading out. in fact, rich clubs (and porto) are becoming the new middlemen. a youngster's parents would rather have their kid at some club that has all the dollars and euros, and if that kid can cut it there, dream of moving to an elite club

as far as the national team goes, its normal, football goes in cycles; when one generation of good players gets older, it takes a bit for new talent pool to step up....even brazil who never had such problem are experiencing this. imo as long as football is given utmost attention in a country, it will get better with time. but the same goes for everyone and at some point, talent, hardwork and a bit of luck weeds teams out. but this is normal and their national team will get back on its feet....can't say the same for clubs as i don't follow it as closely as i used to, and money plays an even bigger role in club football nowadays compared to before
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Re: The Level of Dutch Football in 2016

Post by Art Morte on Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:02 pm

An excellent post, Tito Cool

I especially liked the middle man part. It makes sense. Ajax and the rest of the Dutch clubs aren't getting the Zlatans and Suarezes any more, I suppose. Clubs with more money have taken that role.

But I also think the domestic production i.e. the Dutch players themselves have gone down in quality. The Euro qualification being a concrete example of that. Also the fact that I don't see who would be a superstar Dutch player in a few years' time, like they've pretty much always had until now.
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Re: The Level of Dutch Football in 2016

Post by titosantill on Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:39 pm

thanks. i think there was still quality in the qualification process. i caught some of the dutch team's games. it was a case of players just getting older, and egos. young players can get away with disliking each other when the skill, youth, understanding of football are present. when you're mid 30s, can't run as fast, yet you (rvp) and huntelaar can't get along its bound to cause problems

as far as the future superstar, we really don't see all of them. its funny, i mean yes, we all could see ronaldo de lima and go, "he's legit", but there are hundreds of great players who we never saw coming. that we don't see them doesn't mean they won't arrive. not saying netherlands should expect a savior, just that sometimes talent just pops up when you aren't looking.

think about it, we never really saw the rise of spain until they were in their mid 20s. we knew all those guys, but the one predicted as being their golden child after raul was torres; not villa, xavi, xabi and all those boys. we never gave pirlo time of day till like 05, even though he had been doing alright at inter and milan. only people from certain areas from france saw zidane coming, and i bet they didn't all see the influx of growing talent until maybe close to the 98 world cup....

u're not going to see the next guy unless he's really pele, maradona, ronaldo de lima, or messi type special; but it doesn't mean talent will just remain stagnant, especially when its a football based nation, like the netherlands, where the youngsters can probably string a decent couple of 10 yard passes before learning how to walk.
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Re: The Level of Dutch Football in 2016

Post by zigra on Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:49 pm

Meh, I do think there's a group of young dutch players who look somewhat special. Probably most of all Bazoer, who imo is the leagues best midfielder at the age of 19. I know the league is weak, but we dominate it with a team that consists mostly of dutch players who are 20+-2 years old and we still have some great talents in the youth like Nouri. I do think some of them have the talent to reach that "superstar" level.

To be honest though I'm not too impressed with what the other teams produce.
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Re: The Level of Dutch Football in 2016

Post by Curtinho on Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:14 pm

@zigra wrote:Meh, I do think there's a group of young dutch players who look somewhat special. Probably most of all Bazoer, who imo is the leagues best midfielder at the age of 19. I know the league is weak, but we dominate it with a team that consists mostly of dutch players who are 20+-2 years old and we still have some great talents in the youth like Nouri. I do think some of them have the talent to reach that "superstar" level.

To be honest though I'm not too impressed with what the other teams produce.

IMO Bazoer is not even the best midfield prospect at Ajax right now (MaraDonny for me, and Sinkgraven has just as much potential). If you consider Nouri a midfielder he probably has the highest top end. I did this for another site:

Neat, I'll do this for Dutch players (I won't list players that have declared, or are likely to, play for other NTs). My information comes from a combination of watching youth games/nationals when I can, and a private discussions group I'm a part of with some folks over in the Netherlands that regularly watch the youth teams and discuss them (we even keep a few charts with player rankings, etc.)

I'm not huge on ranking them just because especially the younger you go there's so much that can change. I'm a big fan of just picking out the top talents, but I've tried to kind of order them in what would be a general ranking with lots of wiggle room.

Forwards/Wingers
Steven Bergwijn (97)
Bobby Adekanye (99)
Justin Kluivert (99)
Che Nunnely (99)
Memphis Depay (93)
Quincy Promes (92)
Sam Lammers (97)
Vincent Janssen (93)*
Jean-Paul Boetius (93)
Rashaan Fernandes (98)
Javairo Dilrosun (98)
Anwar El Ghazi (95)
Richairo Zivkovic (96)

Bergwijn is the crown jewel of this group, but the 99s are very promising and highly regarded. Janssen is a bit funny because he's a late bloomer, but is showing a lot of really positive attributes this season (from movement, to strength, two footedness, etc.) he just lacks in pace.

10s/Attacking CMs
Abdelhak Nouri (97)
Mink Peeters (98)
Daley Sinkgraven (95)
Frenkie De Jong (97)
Tonny Vilhena (95)*
Bart Ramselaar (96)
Kenneth Paal (97)
Jari Schuurman (97)
Adam Maher (93)
Dabney dos Santos (96)

Vilhena is playing a bit deeper nowdays, so may be more of an 8 than a 10, though most Dutch teams don't play with a "10" in the normal sense since they almost all play the 4-3-3. Still Nouri is an all world talent and I expect big things from him (as does most of the Dutch football world).

CM/DMs
Donny van de Beek (97)
Carel Eiting (98)
Riechedly Bazoer (96)
Davy Klaassen (93)
Davy Propper (91)
Rodney Kongolo (98)
Marco van Ginkel (92)
Jorrit Hendrix (95)
Yassin(e) Ayoub (94)
Rewan Amin (96)

MaraDonny tops the list. He can sometimes act as a more attacking midfielder, but really he's a great all-rounder. Eiting is a really silky guy as well, and I expect he'll be quite good. I kept this group together because there's generally still quite a bit of movement, and even some of the 10s/AMs get moved further back in time with physical progression (Sinkgraven could end up more of an 8 as well). Same with the defenders which is why I kept them in the same group.

CBs/FBs
Timothy Fosu-Mensah (98)
Calvin Verdonk (97)
Jetro Willems (94)
Mathijs de Ligt (99)
Terence Kongolo (94)
Jairo Riedewald (96)
Joel Veltman (92)
Kenny Tete (95)
Wesley Hoedt (94)
Joost van Aken (94)
Jerry St. Juste (96)
Rick Karsdorp (95)
Kevin Diks (96)
Mats Knoester (98)
Julian Lelieveld (97)

Some of these I just don't really know where to rank against eachother because I find defenders a bit hard to read. It's one of those positions I find you learn a lot more as the player gets older and more experienced. Talent and physicality alone will not make a great defender. Still, this is how I see it.

I don't rate keepers for the most part. Cheers.

As has been mentioned before the NT right now has been racked by injury, fast drop offs (RVP, Sneijder, every defender lol) and are in a transitional period where the best players of this generation still hold a big sway on the team, and the big talent for the next generation is still too young to really take a foothold on the team. Between the injuries and drop in form we're left with some average to very good players.

Part of the problem is that the KNVB seems to have no real direction right now. It looks a lot like they're favouring the LvG school of thought over Cruyff's which IMO is a huge mistake. You can see the lack of progressive and forward thinking coaches that have taken over the NT recently, and with de Boer in charge at Ajax he's stifling a lot of the good younger players at the moment. We can have all the talent in the world for the Oranje but with a coach like Danny Blind it won't matter. There is still good talent available to be used that aren't, our play is rigid and unimaginative, etc.

Anyway, the Dutch league is another matter. Outside of a special group of young talents that actually choose to stay together into their early 20s (I hope Ajax's current youth crop do, a midfield of Nouri-Eiting-van de Beek could be absolutely epic) they're going to struggle to make an impact in Europe. It's still a really great league to watch though -- you don't get a lot of 'park the bus' crap, and even though the defending is often quite poor it makes for exciting football.

I see a lot of potential talent coming through right now. With the right coach and grooming the Netherlands will remain near the top, or climb back there, sooner than later.

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Re: The Level of Dutch Football in 2016

Post by footyfan01 on Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:43 pm

The league has fallen - The CB's are not playing against Zlatan & Suarez anymore. Guys like Bruma & Ake are leaving @ 16 for Chelsea for $ & spoiling their careers. The club teams are bad & can't compete in the CHL - CHL football is very important.

Also football education has to be looked, pacy, skilled creative wingers & Attacking mid-fielders are not coming. Depay may have a bag of tricks but compare his 1st touch vs Robben's - He seems like a very mediocre end product.

Among the growing crop - I like the CB's - Some good talent there - We'll have a good defense - In 2020-22, I can one of the toughest defense be Dutch, if these young guys make the leap. Tete is going to a fabulous pure RB, best defensive RB in the world, but sad he doesn't have much of an attacking game.

Ziyech was an elite talent who Hiddink & Blind didn't call & he went for Morocco. Among the new guys I like Bergwin & Nouri.

I am not as bullish about Nouri. Bazoer is an elite level player, look at his technical ability, he started as a CB for PSV anyways.

Van De Beek is not bad, De Jong is okay, Eiting is nice - I just don't get the exciting feeling - I'm not sure who will be WC in here, if any

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