James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

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James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Adit on Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Benitez has been trying to find a place for James all season and the best role he found for him is LCM role. It is probably motivated by Ancelotti's Madrid where Di Maria played that exact role to perfection. Rafa thinks the space left by Ronaldo on the left side will be able to exploited by James just like Di Maria did. On paper it should work , similar tactics but he doesn't realize the bigger picture.

James has even better crossing and decision making abilities than the former, then what is the problem? It is multiple problems not one.

That LCM role has to cover allot of ground. It has to act as a CM in defense and also act as a LM in attack, now this requires not just effort but ability. They not only have to cover the ground alot but cover it faster. The transition between offence and defense depends a lot on the contribution of this midfielder. James Rodriguez not being an athletic freak fails in this regard compared to Di Maria who was exceptional in transition Simply put the engine and defensive ability a midfielder has to offer, in our case extra ability can't be matched by James who is mainly a No 10 in traditional sense..

Now both these players are one footed yet this seems to affect James more than the other, why?
James is totally one footed, I haven't seen him use right foot for anything. Everything he does it is with his left foot. Now being on the left, when against the defenders only thing he can offer is crosses. His lack of dribbling ability and explosive pace means he doesn't fit the description of a natural left midfielder during attacks. It shows, when the crossing isn't working there isn't much James can offer from that side. Compare that to Maria who with his dribbling ability could totally provide the width and explosiveness from the wing.

Now how can we solve this problem? For starters not selling Di Maria was an option but let's get to reality.
The LCM has to have the ball retention skills of a midfielder, work rate and defensive mentality of midfielder, pace, dribbling and crossing of a winger. Now that leaves most of our midfielders out. Modric,Kovacic Kroos all of them played that role one or two games but they were largely unconvincing in that role, understandably. When Modric played that role he couldn't provide the width a natural LM could give so it left Marcelo alone in the wing against Atletico (or Bilbao?) the tactical deficiency was there to see.

Ancelotti after trying James in the beginning in that LCM role realized the problem and moved him to RW where he excelled. Instead he chose the only player who could play that role properly and that was Isco. It is no coincidence our best football came when Isco played on LCM and James at RW. For once James closer to the goal which is where his strength is, he could now cross the inswinging cross as well as cut in and provide that killer pass. Isco being known for his multi dimension now was in joy, he now has the freedom to come deep to support the midfield and hog the ball as much as he likes. Now he can go to LW and take on the defender..full of options. His willingness to track back and his defensive ability means he fitted right away. The only draw back was that he can't provide the width as much as Di Maria can since he like James can only do the inswinging crosses but he more than made it up with his much superior midfield contribution. His mere presence was meant ball retention was done effortlessly. It's no wonder our midfield was so fluid and no body could take the ball away from us.

I'm baffled at Rafa. He now plays James at LCM and Isco further forward as RW. They aren't doing bad but you can clearly see they are not enjoying their football and are being played out of position. For the sake of the team he has to change it, it is the only solution to CR going to striker from LW.


Last edited by Adit on Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:34 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:44 pm

Goddammit! Brilliant. Just. Freaking. Brilliant :bow:

Is there any chance Rafa sees this? Somebody fax this to Real Madrid. Oh wait...

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Adit on Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:01 pm

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:Goddammit! Brilliant. Just. Freaking. Brilliant :bow:

Is there any chance Rafa sees this? Somebody fax this to Real Madrid. Oh wait...
Fax lmao... Don't even mention it.

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:05 am

Hey Adit, i hear your pain. This is what i have in my mind when i talk about a badly constructed squad, or at least, part of it.

Now to your main thesis, which is "Rafa is mishandling James", well, i disagree with you, and i will explain why.

First of all, you are perfectly right about the fact that James is not a LCM. He lacks the basic abilities and physical capacity to play that position and to "enhance" the team, meaning to perfect to a high enough level that he drives the team. Di Maria did that and we won the CL. James will not succeed in that position, and games like vs Malmo prove nothing.

Now you say  

Ancelotti after trying James in the beginning in that LCM role realized the problem and moved him to RW where he excelled.
You are right James moved to RW/RM and excelled. You are right again but in what context? in what system? who was playing with him? Benzema-Isco-Cristiano. Why was it successful? I believe it was due to the fact that we had a point of fixation up top in Benzema, one floating behind him with freedom in CR, Isco playing on his favourite left side and James playing with relative freedom to go in or stay wide according to the situation. Simple football which applied properly provided success.

So remember the context please, Bale was out and things were working in that setup. So with Bale back, that setup can no longer work. Bale is not Isco, and cant play the position of a traditional midfielder, who thinks about balancing the squad with his positioning. He thinks like a star, right or wrong, he wants to be close to goal, he wants to score goals to justify his status.

To your point about James being great at RW, even that i am not sure is the best position for him. You are right that he is great with that inswingging pass, that through ball, he is a fantastic passer. Yet he sucks in 1v1, he has no breakout speed to threaten or pin back the opposing left back. He needs that freedom to go wherever he wants. So where do you play him? 442? it wont work due to the fact that Bale is not a left mid. 433? You play BBC and then James LCM? as you said it wont work...

The problem here isnt that Benitez does not know where to play james, it's simply that James doesnt have a natural place with BBC. Let's not forget that not even Ancelotti could figure it out. he had pathetic games with this line up and he also finished trophiless. It's just tough to make it work.

To me the game in Malmo, was just a way to get James to find his feeling again, he played James as deep as he could so that he could touch the ball and swing it forward. That worked, James is building back rhythm and it's good for his self confidence.

Let's be honest, some tough decisions have to be made as far as who we play out there for the biggest games.




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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by titosantill on Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:18 am

well said mrnick, adit makes a good point but context is key. james can never play his best position with the situation we have at hand. there are too many untouchables; and i'm not sure i even like him playing on the right side of midfield or right wing. yes, he did well when he played there, and bale was out injured at times, but these weren't against the best of opponents. now, rafa can play him on the right and play bale in the middle (ten role), but we all see something inherently wrong with that. rafa's inherited the best squad individually ever in his career, but it isn't the best assembled. there's very little he can do. and isco only plays cos of injuries, suspensions and games where some guys can get rest. he won't start when everyone's available
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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Adit on Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:26 am

@Nick

Every body knows James best position isnt RW but we aren't playing with a 10 and in our wicked 442 formation only place James can shine is RW...I thought that was the context of the current tactics.

Well, when I say playing both Isco and James it automatically means that only two of the BBC plays and preferably only one of CR or Bale. Yes the context of the writing is that I imagine only two of the BBC plays. Didn't knew it wasn't obvious from the first post. With out Isco playing the entire system breaks down.

And imo the title should be why Isco is the only player who can play the LCM role in current team. The post actually talks more about the fit of Isco in that role and inability of James in that role than searching about James's best position.

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Adit on Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:43 am

About me blaming Benitez. Last match he played both Isco and James with Ronaldo and Benzema in that wicked 442 yet he chose to play James at LCM and Isco at RW when it should have been the other way around. I fail to see how poorly constructed squad had anything to do in that context. There is no excuse for playing James at LCM and Isco at RW.

So what can we learn from that? It doesn't matter weather bale is playing or not Benitez thinks James is suited to LCM and Isco at RW.

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:56 am

For our own sake, I hope it was just a one-time thing. Playing Isco at RW and James at LCM impedes them both from playing to their full potential. The other way around is the way to go.

Also, I agree with Adit, it doesn't matter who's playing up front as long as our midfield is properly set and BBC aren't playing all three at the same time.


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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Valkyrja on Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:31 pm

Am i the only one who thinks that Isco is a must in 4-3-3. Kroos-Modric as the advanced midfielders doesn't work

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:45 pm

@Adit wrote:About me blaming Benitez. Last match he played both Isco and James with Ronaldo and Benzema in that wicked 442 yet he chose to play James at LCM and Isco at RW when it should have been the other way around. I fail to see how poorly constructed squad had anything to do in that context. There is no excuse for playing James at LCM and Isco at RW.

So what can we learn from that? It doesn't matter weather bale is playing or not Benitez thinks James is suited to LCM and Isco at RW.
To that i will answer that we won 8-0... and even playing James LCM and Isco further forward did work... My first thought when i saw him deep was "Carlo wants to improve James' play deep in the field because BBC is untouchable" It was just my guess and what made the most sense to me.

You guys keep talking about one of the BBC out, but that's wishful thinking. It's not going to happen if they are all fit, and to balance the team, Benitez will have to sacrifice one of those big names.


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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Adit on Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:30 pm

@Mr Nick09 wrote:
@Adit wrote:About me blaming Benitez. Last match he played both Isco and James with Ronaldo and Benzema in that wicked 442 yet he chose to play James at LCM and Isco at RW when it should have been the other way around. I fail to see how poorly constructed squad had anything to do in that context. There is no excuse for playing James at LCM and Isco at RW.

So what can we learn from that? It doesn't matter weather bale is playing or not Benitez thinks James is suited to LCM and Isco at RW.
To that i will answer that we won 8-0... and even playing James LCM and Isco further forward did work... My first thought when i saw him deep was "Carlo wants to improve James' play deep in the field because BBC is untouchable" It was just my guess and what made the most sense to me.

You guys keep talking about one of the BBC out, but that's wishful thinking. It's not going to happen if they are all fit, and to balance the team, Benitez will have to sacrifice one of those big names.



That we won 8-0 against a team who finished their season months ago in meaningless match means very little and it doesn't answer anything. Seriously it was good for motivation and stats padding , that's it. A match to judge tactical correctness ? It wasn't. Stop bringing that game as some kind of proof. It only shows that Benitez actually is very serious about playing James at LCM .

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:39 pm

So where do you think James should play with BBC? Answer me that, because as i recall, Ancelotti was doing the same thing.

Remember how we tried playing 4231 start of the year? CR was unhappy, not scoring. We tried high pressing and all the attacking guys were not pressing at all. We played them all in the clasico and they got destroyed.

So what is the solution Adit? How do you play BBC with James? And forget about one of the BBC being benched for James, not happening

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Adit on Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:53 pm

Answer is simple, its one or the other. BBC can't work with James. Some one has to go to the bench and preferably one of the BBC. If everyone in BBC is playing then James will have to sit out. Ancelotti was 'lucky' in a sense that he had bale inured till December and then James was injured after January so he barely had to play all of them together. The funny thing with Benitez is that even if one of BBC is injured he will play Isco there and J at CM. Now that is just hopeless.

Benitez is the manager. If he can't bench primadonnas for the better of the team and for his own job then what is he? He will not last Im afraid. Benitez needs to grew some *bleep* balls, he gave into the player and media pressure and played James and he almost got sacked. Hasn't he learned anything from it at all? What is better, to get sacked by playing some ones formation or getting sacked playing your own line up?

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:06 pm

Benitez benched James two games prior to Clasico and drama ensued...I think Benitez understands very well what the issue is, and the only way he can play BBC along with James is to play him deep.

No one can bench those guys, what are you talking about? they have been empowered by the club/Flo and the fans who just lash at him, as you can see in this forum.

I find your whole "he needs to grow balls" a bit too convenient here firend, it's not that easy.

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Adit on Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:03 pm

When Benitez was appointed one thing everyone and media proclaimed about him was that he treats players similarly and how he doesn't like to put anyone above the squad. It seemed like it for the first 2 months and after that he went the players way.

Why should Benitez stick with a failure of a tactics just because of the player pressure? That is one of the bigger coward if there was ever one. He clearly knew that James playing his first game with BBC was suicidal but went with that anyway. He in my book has to grow some freaking balls. Playing James deeper isn't a solution, its just suicidal .

He will get sacked anyway, so why not go by your own way instead of going in someone's way

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:10 pm

No drama will ensure if he benches one of BBC. In fact, he did and nobody complained.

We are absolutely for benching one of BBC. What most of us are against is benching either James or Isco for the sake of BBC. That is suicidal. Those two should have their starting spot pinned down.

And like Adit said, he'll be sacked anyway, so why not go his way and grow some freaking balls instead of being a world class coward?

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Adit on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:38 pm

Didn't learn from clasico, will he even learn from this game for the sake of finishing second.

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by sportsczy on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:45 pm

We should bench Bale and put CR/benz up front... let Isco and James handle the corners and Modric/Kroos the middle. 442. It would work like a charm.

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Valkyrja on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:47 pm

@sportsczy wrote:We should bench Bale and put CR/benz up front... let Isco and James handle the corners and Modric/Kroos the middle. 442. It would work like a charm.


We would have won the league and CL with that formation last season :facepalm: . But it will never happen Sad

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:56 pm

@sportsczy wrote:We should bench Bale and put CR/benz up front... let Isco and James handle the corners and Modric/Kroos the middle. 442. It would work like a charm.

It hurts, doesn't it? To know the solution and still can't do anything about it.

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by titosantill on Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:58 am

it would work against malmo. its too reckless a formation. two guys playing the same position, playing together. what happens when one or both gets hurt? which will happen, if they're playing all those games. i view kroos and modric as similar players, isco and james similar as well. it may even have worked in today's game, but in the long term, a season of 60 plus games, its too dangerous. especially when the entire formation and identity will change drastically if any of those guys gets injured. i'm not sure we will ever have an adequate solution for the rest of the season....all we will be doing is papering the cracks. a brilliant squad of individuals but poorly constructed
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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Adit on Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:09 am

Tittosanttil.

I kind of disagree. We can't just scared of getting injured and not play the strongest line up. Does Barca bench one of MSN In fear of injury? No, they have none to replace them but all of them plays. When injury comes we deal with it our squad players. That's how it's done.

Also disagree with Modric and Kroos being similar. Kroos is best in an anchor role, a reference in midfield to spread the ball across. While Modric is a ball carrier if there was ever one, he is used to relive the pressure on midfield and its no wonder when we are pressed the ball ends up in modric's hand.

James and Isco are vastly different, I and that article I posted already talked about Isco's multi dimensional traits. His style is high work rate combined with quick link up and dribbling. While James is about final ball and crosses,a traditional no 10 in all sense, a supreme chance creator.

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by titosantill on Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:53 am

if luis enrique had his way, he won't have sold pedro, and with the talent of their front three, they can always alternate if any of them get injured. two we do have to be careful about injuries, very careful; we suffered a lot earlier this season, modric had a relatively serious injury last year due to fatigue, and james is injury prone. to throw all of that out the window and act like these guys are fit as fiddles is reckless.

kroos and modric are central midfielders, we can get deeper into technicalities, but they aren't tacklers, and without the ball kroos especially, zones out. neither of them is a workhorse. we have a sketchy defense, and as long as carvajal is out, two terrible right backs in danilo and arbeloa. i doubt kroos and modric are going to provide much needed anchor to the defense. kroos' best role was playing with javi garcia and schweinsteiger behind him, or schweinsteiger and khedira behind him in germany, not chasing and tackling people

that brings me to isco and james; neither of these two are wingers. neither is a brilliant crosser of the ball, nor are they robben-esque, in terms of cutting in and shooting with the stronger foot. and once again, there are two sides of the game; offense and defense. i doubt isco and james are going to provide much needed help to the full backs, who are going to need it. both players are attacking midfielders, they don't have winger traits, and can't tackle for shit...and i'm not sure  'isco and high work rate' belong together

once again, this will work against the getafe's and malmos of this world. it might have even probably today if villareal had played open-ended, which they wisely did not. but in a 60 plus season, and against teams that know what they're doing, this is suicidal. and what happens when we lose the ball? isco's good but even in his best position (as an attacking midfielder; not central, not wing), he's been known to lose the ball every now and again, now i expect he gives up some turn overs as a winger, who'll chase the ball; isco, kroos, james? only modric will give some effort on that end, but he isn't even a good tackler

i noticed the article referenced ancelotti. let's not get carried away, remember half the squad ended the season knackered and could barely run late on when we needed them the most. this formation reminds me of queroz' zidane, beckham, figo, guti (solari) midfield quartet. who's going to play defense? don't forget we are not exactly the best defensive side in the world. this may work in one or two games, but over the course of a season? don't bank on it
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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by sportsczy on Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:56 am

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:We should bench Bale and put CR/benz up front... let Isco and James handle the corners and Modric/Kroos the middle. 442. It would work like a charm.

It hurts, doesn't it? To know the solution and still can't do anything about it.

Team selection isn't even that hard:

Navas
Carvajal
Varane
Ramos
Marcelo
Kroos
Modric
Isco
James
Ronaldo
Benzema

Anyone who doesn't like it, sell him. How hard can it be ffs.

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Re: James should not play as a center midfielder, it should be Isco

Post by Adit on Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:58 am

Tittosanttil

I don't get how you say Isco- kroos- modric-james doesn't work. Our biggest ever winning streak came, 22 win including Destruction on Barca and several tough teams with the use of that exact same line up. And also don't get how your point of them getting knackered under Ancelotti as a proof that it didn't work. If anything it shows that Ancelotti got the first choice line up right but refused to rotate which he has been guilty of several other teams he has coached as well. Isco has high work rate with out that that formation wouldn't have worked like a charm. I don't get how can discredit a 22 game win streak that only ended because of Ancelotti's no rotation policy not because the tactics were bad.

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