True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

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True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Adit on Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:36 pm

If there is one player I like reading interview of it is Tony. He is superb at understanding what exactly is happening on the pitch and what exactly is tactics. In recent interview he said true great players moves their position deeper and deeper as their career progress. What do you think?

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Freeza on Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:39 pm

I wouldn't call Benzema great yet though.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by sportsczy on Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:43 pm

That's not necessarily true. I've noticed that the truly great players tend to compensate for what they lose as they get older by playing smarter in terms of positioning, but not higher or lower. They still operated in the same areas. Since they didn't run as fast or play as quickly as before... they just anticipated things more.

Zidane, Henry, Maradonna, Van Basten, etc. all did this.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Adit on Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:54 pm

@Freeza wrote:I wouldn't call Benzema great yet though.


rofl

True goat :bow:

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Adit on Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:02 pm

Sports interesting points.

Although I think Zidane in his last years played alot deeper than he was at Juventus.

Henry kind of never adjusted to his lose of pace if I remember. He was sold by 31 years of age.

Pirlo is another example. Started as TQ but ended his career as a DLP. Lampard and Gerrard tried to play deeper but failed obviously. Modric is transforming into a CM . Messi now playing more as a assist man than as a striker.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by titosantill on Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:12 pm

i don't necessarily agree with this. great players adjust, it doesn't always mean they have to play deeper or be able to play deeper. in fact, sometimes the change of position screams politics in certain scenarios. luxemborgo in the latter part of the 05 season, when the team went on a reasonable run of wins, played owen and ronaldo upfront, with zidane, raul and beckham behind them. that was clearly political, it was basically what we face now of trying to squash everyone in the team....figo unfairly suffered for that

sometimes its based on what the player can provide. football isn't like basketball, where to play center you have to be like 6'9, 6'10. if you have certain intangibles the coach can move you deeper, further, wide etc another thing to consider, just cos certain great players have been moved deeper doesn't always mean they were great playing in the deeper position. maradona played deeper in italia 90, as good as he was, he wasn't the same diego, and that was practically his curtain call in the spotlight on the pitch. same goes for deco; he did alright as a cmf, but wasn't close to the same deco at porto.

and some players have played the same position all their careers without being moved deeper, doesn't mean they weren't great. romario spent all his career in the box, so too batistuta, van basten (at least in his prime), figo on the right flank, ronaldo el phenomeno and so on

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by titosantill on Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:13 pm

also, the pirlo lampard gerrard comparison isn't as straightforward. the last time pirlo played tq was early on in his career, maybe the late 90s. even at brescia, i never remembered him as a playmaker or 10. from 2000 onwards he's always occupied the central midfield/ deep lying playmaker role. seedorf and rui costa played in front of him and gattuso, with rui costa handling majority of the play making duties. and then seedorf and kaka. so pirlo for at least 10-12 years has always played a similar position on the pitch

compared with lampard and gerrard who played deep, and then at their peaks, played further up front as attacking midfielders, and only tried to revert back when their legs were done and they were in their mid 30s. messi's playing the role he is now, because of the shape of team, to account for suarez especially. and he too is used to that role because he's been playing the playmaker role for argentina. modric i've always considered to be a cm.....kroos may just be trying to give himself some confidence with this talk...i'd say henry adjusted alright, his second season at barcelona playing predominantly on the left was good, he had the most assists in la liga that year if i'm not mistaken. the guy had two groin injuries, he had maxed out
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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Adit on Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:47 am

@titto

Agree on something that great players do adjust their position and not necessarily deep but the counter is also true... Great players never v really moves forward as they age.. Those who tried they failed miserably.

Yeah, the pirlo example is probably wrong as he changed his position earlier in his career and not necessarily to compensate his lack of pace.

Disagree on Deco. Nobody is going to be as good as they were in their prime.. But Deco moving to CM was perfect example of a great player who changed his position to compensate for lack of pace. Deco was superb for Chelsea for atleast two seasons.

Lampard and Gerrard started as AMs though, not the other way around. I don't also consider them as truly special players any way.

Messi is playing deeper and deeper now days. He no longer crashes the box as much as he used to. To accommodate a player or not he is evolving, that much is certain.

Let's also read our along CRs transformation from a LW into a poacher which is not exactly going well for him atm as he is significant weaker physically than he was before.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by The Madrid One on Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:02 pm

I personally think that very good players are first of all, not liabilities to their team in terms of their psychology and abilities.

Very good players will be tactically conscious, they will have proper work ethic, they will be (diversely) talented and they will also be conscientious/team oriented.

You look at a player like CR7 and the holes in his game are becoming bigger and bigger, leaving clearer some of his fundamental deficiencies as a player and arguably as a person.

I look at someone like Isco for example and i see someone who is talented, has proven to have work ethic, and has also been intelligent enough to adapt his game in becoming a diverse player.

About Toni, i believe it was Abel Rojas (a football Guru who i'm not TOO fond off) who said that Toni's physical and technical conditions produced a natural evolution to a fitter place for him deeper in a team's ecosystem. I agree and i also think that in his specific case, he has limiting physical conditions which make it so that he becomes arguably a liability in a team that is not constructed most adequately (something Modric arguably doesn't suffer from to the same degree for example).
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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by sportsczy on Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:32 pm

TMO Proud

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Hapless_Hans on Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:38 pm

True great players may move deeper with age, but then true great players don't reach that kind of age already at 24.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by titosantill on Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:19 pm

btw players as they get old hardly move forward because, with age, your pace declines, and whilst speed may not be the most important ingredient, its still a sexy recipe for a coach to have further forward. only in very rare cases, when they move to a lesser team and are surrounded by scrubs, like when ronald de boer played for rangers, and became like a striker than attacking mid. but its not always because they are true great players....sometimes its politics, sometimes its a coach just wanting them on the pitch..

and agree with the above, they don't reach that age at 24. can u imagine a coach telling ruud gullit or figo at 24 to play deeper in midfield? its such suggestions that makes a player want to slap a coach. kroos doesn't have the endurance level or stamina to start chasing and tackling people on the pitch. hell he doesn't even have the physical appearance, he's not effenberg or matthaus. the positive thing about his comment is that @ least he's not whining nor complaining. he's accepted the situation for what it is, and that's very commendable, for what its worth
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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Mr Nick09 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:41 pm

Kroos is an odd one, he has the tactical understanding to play in a deeper position, a bit like Xabi, not as masterfully but he is smart enough to accomodate playing that role.

That being said the physical limitations that forced him into a deeper role, are his downfall. You look at other pivots in footy, the very few that we have, and they all do more off the ball than Kroos. I have Thiago and Busquets in mind, more hustle, more strength, more nastiness, much greater ability to win the ball back, and that's his truly what differentiate them and someone like Kroos.

His talent passing the ball is obvious though, he is elite, so you can build a midfield to accomodate that alone.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Robespierre on Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:18 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:True great players may move deeper with age, but then true great players don't reach that kind of age already at 24.

Still I remind Lothar Matthaus played as sweeper in last years of career - played until old 40 - and he was going to win even a Champions League if not Sheringham/Solskjaer at extratime (or simply,  if Hitzfield didn't replace him on 90' .. )  .. .What an absolute legend
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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Adit on Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:35 pm

It took Ancelotti to find the best position for Kroos. He is just like Pirlo, physically weak but superb in controlling the game with his passing and movement from the deep.

Bayern used him wrongly and they developed him wrongly as well. A player that low in mobility was used as an advanced center midfielder or at times 10.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by El Blanco Madridista on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:02 pm

We can all agree that Kroos has to play deep, but he either needs a more aggressive/physical midfielder in front of him, kind of like Pirlo had Vidal/Gattuso, either our attackers have to work really hard defensively to make up for Kroos' defensive deficiencies (yeah, his positioning is really good, but not his tackling or marking).

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Mr Nick09 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:07 pm

Hold up now, you are rewriting history here.

Kroos played as a 10 because he was damn good at it. When he was at leverkusen he was pretty great, and even when he returned to bayern he had fantastic performances as a 10 and CM. Its overtime that he starter moving backwards on the pitch, if we have to look for a cause, maybe his injury in 2013 made a difference. He is not the same player pre and post injury from what i see.

And another useless wanking at Carlo, im sorry but he did not invent the lightbulb with playing Kroos deep in midfield as pivot. Pretty sure pep had experimented with him in that position in a few games.

But i will say again, kroos has the tools to play as pivot ON the ball. Off the ball he sucks.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by chad4401 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:16 pm

off ball he sucks is nonsense, one players cannot cover so much ground by himself, casimero already put this argument to rest, and he failed even worst than kroos, at times as the team got dominated in the mid, but no one ever wants to bring that up, cause he was already championed to be the opposite of kroos.

this is another case of singling out the least hyped player to blame, cause things are never isco,james or modric fault, but the plain looking player kroos though, typical stupid reasoning on this forum, just like illarra and lucas silva situation, want to blame illarra so bad for everything, same posters treated that scrub silva as some sort of wc player, just to look foolish in the end.


Last edited by chad4401 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Adit on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:17 pm

Who said he was crap when played further though? Nobody has said anything like that so hold on.

A player who is lacking serious pace was always suited to play deeper which is his best position.

Who cares if Pep played him in one or two games as Anchor it is a very small sample size to say anything like pep changed his position.Match against minnows means *bleep* all too, otherwise there are countless examples of coaching changing players position. Its the big games and whole season that matters. One or two games? means bleep all.

It was Ancelotti who put Kroos in an Anchor role for a full season and credits where its due.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Hapless_Hans on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:22 pm

@El Blanco Madridista wrote:We can all agree that Kroos has to play deep,


Then you're all agreeing on the wrong thing.
Kroos is wasted so deep, and he's nothing special there either.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Adit on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:26 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@El Blanco Madridista wrote:We can all agree that Kroos has to play deep,


Then you're all agreeing on the wrong thing.
Kroos is wasted so deep, and he's nothing special there either.


He was special enough for us last season.He was so integral Ancelotti never rotated him.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by chad4401 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:30 pm

in the 4-4-2 formation where its more compact and the lines are closer kroos looked great, as long as the team is compact kroos usually looks a lot better, but zero workrate from the wings leaves him(or any player) with too much to do defensively, especially under the crappy rafa system.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by El Blanco Madridista on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:30 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@El Blanco Madridista wrote:We can all agree that Kroos has to play deep,


Then you're all agreeing on the wrong thing.
Kroos is wasted so deep, and he's nothing special there either.

With BBC, Isco and James, I don't think it is possible for Kroos to play in an attacking role.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Hapless_Hans on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:35 pm

@Adit wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@El Blanco Madridista wrote:We can all agree that Kroos has to play deep,


Then you're all agreeing on the wrong thing.
Kroos is wasted so deep, and he's nothing special there either.


He was special enough for us last season.He was so integral Ancelotti never rotated him.


Because Alonso left so suddenly Kroos had that role locked, and Ancelotti didn't rate Illaramendi at all, apparently.

I've said it before, it encourages his worse instincts, which are to be lethargic and play it safe. It well may be that's what he wants or where he sees himself, he's judging himself wrongly though and Real shouldn't indulge him.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

Post by Hapless_Hans on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:37 pm

@El Blanco Madridista wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@El Blanco Madridista wrote:We can all agree that Kroos has to play deep,


Then you're all agreeing on the wrong thing.
Kroos is wasted so deep, and he's nothing special there either.

With BBC, Isco and James, I don't think it is possible for Kroos to play in an attacking role.


Well tough shit. Clearly the aim should be to put together a succesful formation instead of desperately trying to fit all the big names in somehow.

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Re: True great players move deeper as they age, : Tony Kroos

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