Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by ES on Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:09 pm

I'm not sure what Mole was on about with realistic discussions when DTOR said 'The City squad just wasn't built for Pep.'. So yeah, blame shifting.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:12 pm

That's fine but can you please just let it go for once lol.

It's boring reading about it all the time.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by ES on Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:13 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
Pep's problem is that his players are flopping, Bravo flopped hard, Stones flopped even harder, Gündogan turned out to be not available.
But most of all, his tactical plan for City is not stable.



Hans hit the nail on the head here

Instead of trying to fit square pegs into round holes, how about you adapt yourself to the player's abilities? Its clear these guys can't play the way Pep wants them to play, so why the stubborness? It doesn't always have to be the way he wants it to be, sometimes he needs to change, evolve, play differently.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:24 pm

ES wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:
Pep's problem is that his players are flopping, Bravo flopped hard, Stones flopped even harder, Gündogan turned out to be not available.
But most of all, his tactical plan for City is not stable.



Hans hit the nail on the head here

Instead of trying to fit square pegs into round holes, how about you adapt yourself to the player's abilities? Its clear these guys can't play the way Pep wants them to play, so why the stubborness? It doesn't always have to be the way he wants it to be, sometimes he needs to change, evolve, play differently.


That's not the whole story though. The myth that Pep doesn't adapt or plays players out of position is completely wrong, if anything, he moulds the formation too much to resemble the squad.

Problem is that at City, his lopsided, super attacking 4-1-4-1 is mirrored by a lopsided squad.
The performance quality is there in attack, it isn't there in midfield and defense.
That's the stunning thing, that he didn't address the full back thing mre forcefully.

Personally I think he was spoilt, because Bayern players were able to execute his plans and formation to the dot on the i,
Neuer is able to control 40 meters of pitch, making it look like it's not a task. Boateng is able to play as sole CBs along player like Alaba or Kimmich as pseudeo-CBs, Lahm and Alaba are able to control a game positionally and with passing.
Our wingers and forwards were used to working hard against the ball and counterpressing.

City defense and midfield are not able to do it. Almost as if playing in the PL makes teams unable to control possession lol.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:29 pm

He does adapt, he just does it in very acute ways.

People think adapting is playing possession or playing direct lol.

Football isn't so black and white, for example and this is a long time ago. That game in the Bernabeu where Messi scored THAT goal to prevent counter attacks he had Barca play extremely deep and build up very slowly to control where counter attacks could come from.

That's adapting to an opposing teams strength, it may not be a traditional way of doing it but it is adapting.

There's plenty of other examples too, i don't particularly see that as a weakness of his personally.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by CBarca on Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:32 pm

He'll get there. I've said this before that I always give players a free year after moving because they must adapt to a new language, culture, style, English breakfast etc.

This doesn't exclude them from criticism, I love making fun of Pogba. Despite my love for Pep as well, I quite dislike City as a club and I don't mind laughing at Pep or City. Just means that I won't say anyone deserves to be sacked after a season, and that real judgement comes the next season.

Anyway, he'll get there. The GOAT of managers plays a long term game. You guys probably wouldn't understand :coffee:

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by rincon on Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:35 pm

He'll get there for sure. He'll drop 300m more this summer and revamp his team.
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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by CBarca on Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:38 pm

It's needed tbh, this city squad is an aging one that needs a revamp.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by Onyx on Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:03 pm

-----------------Bravo
Bellerin---Bonucci---Stones---Grimaldo
-------------------Weigl
----Jesus---Gundogan*---Silva---KDB
------------------Aguero

*Banega to rotate.

hmm

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by ES on Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:26 pm

-----------------Lloris
Semedo---Bonucci---Laporte---Grimaldo
-----------------Fabinho
----Sane---Verratti---KDB---Sanchez
------------------Jesus

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by juve_gigi on Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:32 pm

Conte seems to have adapted quite well to England and Chelsea. From what I understand he didn't speak a word of English until last year. Allegri also adapted quite well in his first year at Juve. As a matter of fact he went all the way to the CL final and almost won the treble with Conte's team, not his.

The fact is ManCity were in the CL semi-finals last year and lost a close one to Real Madrid. This year they get ko'd in the round of 16. They are also in a dog fight to make the top 4 and actually qualify for CL next year. That's on Pep. Ancelotti adapted to Germany, Bayern is doing just fine without Pep.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by juve_gigi on Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:34 pm

ES wrote:-----------------Lloris
Semedo---Bonucci---Laporte---Grimaldo
-----------------Fabinho
----Sane---Verratti---KDB---Sanchez
------------------Jesus


I'm not sure how Bonucci, Sanchez and Verratti can play on two teams at the same time, as everyone knows they will all be at Juve next year...  :coffee:

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by ES on Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:56 pm

Misspelt Papu Gomez, Izzo and Mandragora there

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by rincon on Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:02 pm

ES wrote:Misspelt Papu Gomez, Izzo and Mandragora there


Izzo and Papu Gomez you say?

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by farfan on Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:10 pm

I'm seing Fabinho in a lot of formations in different midfield positions these past few days. Laughing

This is his first year playing in the right side of a double pivot, and he's doing great so far. But i'm not sure where some of you get the idea that he'll be able to play in front of the defense.
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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by rincon on Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:43 pm

Isn't Fabinho a fullback?
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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by farfan on Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:00 pm

rincon wrote:Isn't Fabinho a fullback?


Yep, but Jardim converted him to a midfielder this season.
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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by rincon on Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:04 pm

farfan wrote:
rincon wrote:Isn't Fabinho a fullback?


Yep, but Jardim converted him to a midfielder this season.


Perfect player for Pep. Nothing he loves more than an out of position fullback.
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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by titosantill on Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:20 am

rincon wrote:He'll get there for sure. He'll drop 300m more this summer


this
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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by donttreadonred on Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:16 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
donttreadonred wrote:

I suppose my real question is this: did Pep know just how large of a rebuilding project he was signing up for? Through his relatively short managerial career, he's never been a long-term builder. He's just not stayed in one place long enough (4 years Barca, 3 years Bayern). Moreover, both of his previous clubs had talent when he arrived. He simply needed to bring out the best in his current players (which I think is his forte). I'm very curious to see how he goes about recruiting the players that will turn city around, because I'm not convinced they're currently on the books.


If he didn't he sure as hell does now lol, honestly while he'll have the money to make it happen it will be interesting to see how he does in building a squad.

He kind of did at Bayern and Barca in a way but those teams also had significant building blocks already in place.

This time he's going to have to build around players who have no experience in winning outside of Gundogan winning the Bundesliga so this might take longer than people realise.
That's really my point. While at Bayern and Barca, he was able to make a few adjustments, shift players around, and spend big in order to fill the gaps created. That's not at all what his task is here. Lack of winning experience is certainly a concern. However, the hodge-podge of styles in the squad is of larger concern for me, and I would largely blame that on the "high-profile" transfer approach of recent years. WHile all the players are technically very good. I get the sense that they don't quite "fit" with Guardiola's style or even each other. It's sometimes akin to watching an "All-Star" team from US sports: all are supremely talent, but there's little organic chemistry.

ES wrote:I'm not sure what Mole was on about with realistic discussions when DTOR said 'The City squad just wasn't built for Pep.'. So yeah, blame shifting.
I believe you're distorting my message here, ES. Please stop attempting to define my message based on a single line of text that suits your agenda. I'm not saying that Pep is blameless. In fact, I mentioned that he had a net spend of €177.65m in my first post yesterday. He's certainly bought to enhance the squad. But that's just it... He bought to enhance the squad. He didn't buy to overhaul the squad. If you look at how he spent the money, it's on several key additions, rather than sweeping changes. The manjority of the squad was, in fact, not bought for Pep, which supports the small excerpt you've pulled from my post.

Of course, this approach to last summer (and January) is Pep's fault, but the point I'm trying to discuss is the overall issues with City and how Pep may go about fixing them. I have ZERO interest in discussing whether or not Pep is the greatest manager of all time. Frankly I don't care. So, please stop attempting to drag me into the managerial fan-boy turf-war you're raging against.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by Casciavit on Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:57 pm

The offensive half of City's team looks good. City doesn't really have problems creating chances, they have problems finishing them off and preventing the opposition from creating chances.

The process was always going to take longer since he's teaching his football to declining footballers, unlike Barca and Bayern were the players had an idea of what he was bringing. Barca because of La Masia, and Bayern because of LVG.

He should have bought new fullbacks over the summer, and he has himself to blame for that. Yes, you can't replace the entire team in one summer, but that was clearly an area of reinforcement. Either way, there's going to be a big overhaul this summer. City will look very different next summer, and I can't wait TBH.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:13 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
I did expect City to be better at this stage, but then again their only competent midfielder is Silva and having a good midfield is a requirement for a Pep team.
Quoted from the Barca section:
He changed his style significantly at Bayern, and the City team play much more the new, Bayern-Pep style, which basically does not rely so much on the midfield. In his 4-1-4-1, there's basically one midfielder and 5 strikers.
He did similarly at Bayern. Some games, it was Vidal and 5 strikers (Costa, Coman, Müller, Robben, Lewa) ahead of him.
He could do that because he could rely on our fullbacks and CBs to take over part of what the midfield game is supposed to do - control, recycle, playmake.

Casciavit wrote:The offensive half of City's team looks good. City doesn't really have problems creating chances, they have problems finishing them off and preventing the opposition from creating chances.

The process was always going to take longer since he's teaching his football to declining footballers, unlike Barca and Bayern were the players had an idea of what he was bringing. Barca because of La Masia, and Bayern because of LVG.

He should have bought new fullbacks over the summer, and he has himself to blame for that. Yes, you can't replace the entire team in one summer, but that was clearly an area of reinforcement. Either way, there's going to be a big overhaul this summer. City will look very different next summer, and I can't wait TBH.

My point. However I don't think it's declining footballers per se, but it's definitively a team that is not used to playing a possession based/counterpressing game.
As for the fullbacks, maybe he overestimated them a bit (though he can hardly overestimate Clichy seeing how terrible he was when we faced City with Pep), or underestimated Zabaleta's decline.
Probably he simply didn't get fullbacks that would have been much of an improvement in his mind.

But in any case the balance is not there yet, as he himself admits in the pre Liverpool press conference.

He basically has not figured out yet how he can get this team to play in a stable way.
It works for spell and in certain constellations (like having Zabaleta in CM etc). But the 4-1-4-1 he quite obviously envisions for his attackers to feature lacks defenders who have the playmaking and possession qualities of Bayern's.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by Onyx on Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:22 pm

I think it's about time they sold Kompany too. No point having a key player around who barely plays. Replace him with a proven World class CB, instead of an up and coming prospect or a 50m one season wonder.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:42 pm

Jonathan Wilson wrote: Pep Guardiola’s zonal theory will take time for Manchester City to learn

The Barcelona and Bayern Munich players were already familiar with Guardiola’s complex juego de posición theory – at City he was virtually starting from scratch


The fashion these days is to knife a manager at the first sign of trouble. Nobody is allowed to build, nobody is allowed to learn from a mistake. Move to a new country, take over a new team, try to adapt to a new environment and if you’re not winning titles six months later you’re a fraud. Neither Jürgen Klopp nor Pep Guardiola are under pressure as such heading into Sunday’s game at the Etihad, but both are facing grumblings of discontent.
[..]
Guardiola’s project, his basic theory of play, is more complex. His preferred term for his philosophy is juego de posición and to instil it he divides the training pitch into 20 sections.
[..]
The idea is that players adjust their position according to which zone the ball is in. But that is just the foundation: ideally players should be flexible enough to fill a zone that would, in the initial template, be filled by somebody else, creating a level of rotation to overman in key areas while maintaining a structure that should both offer passing options and maintain a defensive shape that can react effectively to the loss of possession and a counterattack by being immediately prepared to counter-press.
[..]
Instilling those positional ideas is difficult. While basic elements such as a holding midfielder dropping between the two centre-backs to overman when playing out from the back against two centre-forwards, or even the full-back coming inside when the winger goes wide and vice versa, can be readily grasped, the principle of responding constantly to a mental pitch map is rather harder.

At Barcelona, Guardiola was dealing with players who had been prepared for his extreme interpretation of the theory from their upbringing at La Masia; at Bayern Munich, he was working with players who had been instructed in a (more cautious) variant of the philosophy by Louis van Gaal.

At City, he was virtually starting from scratch, which is perhaps why implementation there has proved so much trickier. It seems likely there will be a clearout in the summer and that more signings will be made but perhaps most important is that players who are already at the club assimilate the 20-zone system.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/mar/18/pep-guardiola-manchester-city-liverpool-barcelona-bayern-munich

Good read referring to points we have discussed; also includes an intellegible outline of what the fames 'positional game' means, definitively more intelligible than the mental midget hipsters at Spielverlagerung are able to provide.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by Unique on Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:58 pm

So does that mean one day klopp will put a team
Out that can defend.

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Re: Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Post by donttreadonred on Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:46 pm

Unique wrote:So does that mean one day klopp will put a team
Out that can defend.
           
2008–09:  W-15  D-14  L-5   GF-60    GA-37    
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Yes... :coffee:

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