What's really wrong with current team

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by sportsczy on Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:09 am

Teams can pressure you with 4 guys in the midfield and you only have 2 guys that know what to do and how to handle it... that's the issue.  Opponents don't even need to break shape to put pressure on you and take the ball away.  That's what they're doing to us right now and we have somewhat of a hard time already.  Now imagine having a DM in there for Kroos and this player being even more uncomfortable making decisions with the ball under pressure.

It doesn't work.  That's why i've never liked a 3 striker setup because it really limits what you can do with the rest of the team.  Neymar isn't really a striker as he does the creative work in the middle when needed, which is why Barca stay balanced.  Heck, Messi can do it too.  None of our guys up front can do it like it's needed to allow for a DM.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by futbol_bill on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:25 am

@sportsczy wrote:Teams can pressure you with 4 guys in the midfield and you only have 2 guys that know what to do and how to handle it... that's the issue.  Opponents don't even need to break shape to put pressure on you and take the ball away.  That's what they're doing to us right now and we have somewhat of a hard time already.  Now imagine having a DM in there for Kroos and this player being even more uncomfortable making decisions with the ball under pressure.

It doesn't work.  That's why i've never liked a 3 striker setup because it really limits what you can do with the rest of the team.  Neymar isn't really a striker as he does the creative work in the middle when needed, which is why Barca stay balanced.  Heck, Messi can do it too.  None of our guys up front can do it like it's needed to allow for a DM.


I still don't agree with you Sports. I see nothing wrong with Modric, Isco and a proper DM or at least a Cm that can play defense. i do agree about the 3 man front line of essentially 3 strikers. I must point out that our 4-3-3 is rather unique in that all three of them seem to think they are strikers. You can easily call both Messi and Neymar AMs with only Suarez a real striker. You can have a striker with 2 wingers or 2Ams or one of both, but it seems we are the only ones playing 3 strikers. That is the basic problem and why so much pressure is on the midfield and defense. You can also argue that Hazard is more like messi as an AM or winger and thus if we do replace Ronaldo with Hazard we are better in that regard leaving Zidane to only convince Bale to play as a winger, helping out with defense.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by sportsczy on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:39 am

It's not a defensive issue... it's a transition from defense to offense issue.  If you have 3 strikers, a DM and only 2 CMs that are comfortable dealing with pressure and have the ability to break pressure...  your transition game is easily neutralized.  You just bracket the 2 CMs and ask the DM to be the one who makes the decision with the ball.  At least right now, they have to stay honest with Kroos.  Put Casemiro or another DM in there and they'll just give him space and take out the other guys...

Last thing you want to do is fix a significant issue (defense in front of the back 4) with another problem (lack of control in the midfield).  It's better to be pretty good at both rather than great at one and awful at another.

The best solution is to find a technical player that can do the defensive duties, like Marchisio, or a DM that is good technically, like Matic.  But that's the issue...  there's Busquets, Lahm, Marchisio and Matic that fit the bill right now.  I can't think of anyone else.

My suggestion is that, since the good options are so thin in terms of finding someone to play the middle if you maintain Isco/James, improve the defensive cover at the opposite side of Modric so you don't need to limit yourself to such a narrow profile. That solution might be Kova but he needs to show a lot more than he did today.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by Clutch on Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:42 am

The fight and resilience that Juventus showed afer going 2-0 down is what I really want from this team. If this team had half the grit Juventus did, I'd be a litle optimistic instead of having 0 faith when we lose a lead.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by sportsczy on Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:02 pm

Juve has physical and athletic guys they can use... we don't. They decided to get physical with Bayern (Mandzu, Pogba, Morata and Hernanes got into their face) and Bayern wilted.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by Clutch on Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:31 am

I dont know about you but when we lose a lead to a semi decent team, I hope that we at least tie it up because I have little faith we'll grind out a win. I'm pretty sure physicality isnt the only reason why teams make a comeback.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by sportsczy on Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:38 pm

It's not physicality or athleticism itself... it''s having the diversity in player profiles that you can change tactics and execute. We're very limited here. We couldn't play any other way if we wanted to.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by Adit on Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:36 pm

If we are playing such a super offensive non track back football then we should actually play a center back who is damn good on the ball in the Anchor role imo. That will make sure we have atleast 5 players who are defensive specialist first. We have played Helguera-Makalele back in the day when Zidane was around.

Of course it's not a surprise we won 3 cls when we had all time great anchor men like Redondo and Makalele. If Zidane don't buy a DM or play Casemiro he has to go after next season imo.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by Valkyrja on Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:49 pm

We should contact Mourinho

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by sportsczy on Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:51 pm

We won the CL with Alonso Adit. It's not about playing a proper DM. It's about team balance. Casemiro is nice but he's not a great player... he's not going to win us anything.

Besides, as i keep harping on, you can only play a DM IF one or both of the wingers participate in the midfield. Ronaldo and Bale can't do that. So again, we're limited by the personnel we chose.

You can't have a DM sit in front of the back 4 and then 2 CMs.... with 3 strikers. That's what Rafa did. It leaves the middle completely sparse. If we had Vieira and Essien at their prime, it would work. But we have Modric and Isco/Kroos/James/Kova. It's impossible.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by futbol_bill on Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:21 pm

Bale can (and has on occasion) participated in midfield. Let's just hope Ronaldo is indeed gone and if he is replaced, his replacement MUST also participate with midfield. That done then Adit's point is very valid.

I don't know why you (and maybe Zidane) are so convinced Casemiro can't do the job. He sure looked decent last year in CL and initially this year. I think he deserves a good look before speaking so badly about him. This is not like Illarra who was given opportunities and failed!. But if they do play him then Kroos has to take a rest (maybe that is what the problem is!!).

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by sportsczy on Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:42 pm

I'm not saying he's bad...  he's pretty good.  But he's not ready for such an important role on a team like Madrid.  Typically, DMs (like CBs) hit their peak later... like late 20s even early 30s.  It requires great anticipation, great tackling and good ball skills.  Motta, Marchisio, Lahm, Matic, etc. are all very experienced.  The only exception recently has been Busquets who did great at a young age in the role.  But Barca play a very specialized game so he was well covered.

Besides, Rafa tried to play Casemiro with Modric and another CM behind BBC.  Casemiro played his role fine...  but the shape was crap because the forwards were forward lol and it left 2 CMs to handle monstrous areas.  

If we want to play a purely counter attack style, sure it's a good a idea.  BBC will need to play much lower though. But if we're trying to control the game and play BBC, it won't work.

And Bale dropping in the midfield and making a back pass or kick & chase is not what i'm talking about.  It's about a wing player actually doing some CM work, which is triangulating with the other mids and being technically skilled enough to hold and play the ball under pressure.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by Adit on Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:18 am

Under Rafa fissures forwards rarely moved. I don't think that is really an example of why a casemiro-modric-kroos midfield won't work. Ideally you want a CM who does bit more than what Kroos does in the final third but it's not like Kroos is bad there, we v rarely played him in advanced positions.

Under Rafa it's pretty clear that CR and Benzema got pissed off because Rafa tried to make Bale the new comer the star over the two long serving CR and Benzema. They both worked least in Rafas team, along with James who was benched fairly.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by sportsczy on Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:37 am

I'm honestly a bit unsure of what Kroos' best position is. He's a not a deep playing mid obviously. He's not a B2B. And he's really not a CAM. What is he exactly? Laughing

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by Valkyrja on Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:46 am

@sportsczy wrote:I'm honestly a bit unsure of what Kroos' best position is. He's a not a deep playing mid obviously. He's not a B2B. And he's really not a CAM. What is he exactly? Laughing


He's a CM . but Modric and Kovacic are better there IMO.

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:25 pm

AS hardly ever writes something worthy of one's time, but this one is just brilliant:

Six keys to Real's disaster season

1. A poor preseason

Many of the Madrid players have complained about their summer preparations, "We did more flying than training" as Modric put it, los blancos were in Australia and China, among other places, the players travelled more than 45,000 kms. Cristiano also complained about the summer preparations: "The pre-season wasn't good, too many trips", Carvajal agreeing.

2.  Doctor Olmo

Real Madrid have had 21 injuries this season at the time of writing, many of those relapses, Pepe and Bale the obvious examples. The players are not happy with "doctor stretch" as they call him, Sergio Ramos particularly vocal about the faltering practice on the Madrid treatment table. In Bale's case, voices are increasing in volume that his recurrent injuries are down to Olmo's change in his treatment from the back-strengthening techniques he was following during Ancelotti's time to stretching, massage, and sand-pit work he's currently doing. He's already had four injuries this season. Keylor Navas, Modric, Pepe, Kovacic, James, Bale and Benzema have all experienced Olmo's ineffective methods this season.

3. Failed managerial decision: Ancelotti for Benítez

Florentino said adiós to Ancelotti, the man who brought the Décima back to the Bernabéu, and who was liked and respected by all the players. The changing-room heavyweights including Cristiano and Ramos were public about their desire to see him continue, but the club president wouldn't listen, bringing in Rafa Benítez. He inherited a difficult situation, players against him from the off, and he rattled too many cages. The bad vibes got worse and the situation became unsustainable, Florentino installing Zidane to calm the ship and stop the mutiny. 'Zidaneuphoria' has lasted only a month and a half however, as the spirit-raising appointment hasn't translated to points-raising results. The change coming half-way through the season has made it difficult for Zidane to get his ideas across.

4. No Director of Sport = a mismatched collection of playmakers

Real Madrid has no plan. That's obvious from the signings at the club which are led by Florentino inspired impulse-buys rather than any grand design. The squad is unbalanced, top heavy with creative players who want to play in the hole and few defensively-minded midfielders. In fact, the only one is Casemiro, all the others are attacking players shoehorned in to the 4-3-3 formed to the demands of the BBC. Real Madrid doesn't have a Sporting Director, which reveals the lack of structure and vision at the club. That makes it possible for Illarramendi to be bought for €40M and sold for €20M, or why there's no substitute for Marcelo when he's injured.

5. James from Ballon d'Or to barn door

A curious case, and a very significant one too. James cost €80M, was an essential part of the team last season, but has disappeared completely this season. It's like he's dragging himself around the pitch, yesterday the fans booed him roundly after he gave the ball away repeatedly and offered nothing going forward. His lowest ebb in the camisa blanca.

6. The heavyweights who weigh heavily on this season

Sergio Ramos has dropped his standards this season, perhaps at the start of the season due to that shoulder injury, but his dominance on the pitch has waned and he's scored only one goal so far this season, contributing much more in previous campaigns. Cristiano hasn't been himself either, he has the same goals per game average, 34 in 33, but has scored all those goals in 17 encounters and his performances away from home have deteriorated alarmingly. Against Roma he scored a chest-pounder, but he has failed to score in the majority of Real Madrid's most important matches this season. Out of the heavyweights, with Bale injured for 42% of the overall minutes so far, only Benzema, Marcelo and Modric have maintained their level.

Source: en.as.com/en/2016/02/28/album/1456665864_823394.html

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by titosantill on Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:57 pm

My Response

A poor preseason-  i agree about the poor preseason- we spent a whole month playing preseason friendlies; but i'd stray away from blaming where we are now on preseason. it may not have been planned well with the long distance travels, but hell even at times when it has, its not like we've come out as top of la liga table. Good point to focus on, but a bit of a stretch

Doctor Olmo- i have no insights on this. its clear we have problems with injuries, its tough not to look at the medical staff and ask questions. But; let's look at those currently injured, bale, marcelo, pepe, benzema. Excluding benzema, to my understanding, at least in madrid, the other 3 are injury prone...marcelo had arthritis in his left knee like two seasons ago, (i can't remember the update on that), bale since he has arrived has had injury upon injury upon injury....pepe too has had his share bouts of injury problems. not to mention carvajal and james. even benzema who isn't injury prone had some knocks last season which made them finally give chicharito a chance. and in the decima year, he was injured late on when carlo ran them to the ground....

my point is, unless olmo has been in charge for a while, i'm not sure he can be blamed for marcelo, pepe, bale....last i heard, players don't like him not because of medical issues, but political. its time players start looking at themselves and their fitness habits...doesn't excuse the doctor, but bale, marcelo, pepe, carvajal seem like they need Jesus to fix their injuries and not dr olmo

Failed managerial decision: Ancelotti for Benítez- no brainer; ancelotti fumbled last season but the players where on his side. and i remember after the season when our threads were filled with "carlo out", i said, u can't fire a guy if the players like him, and there is no alternative in the market. fans got caught up in their emotions on this one. even the madrid based media wanted him to stay....we've harped a lot about rafa, not going to discuss it. should have never been hired in the first place; the zidane move is political as flo looks to shift attention away from issues, its definitely not based on experience....let's see how it goes

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Re: What's really wrong with current team

Post by titosantill on Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:10 pm

No Director of Sport = a mismatched collection of playmakers]- first a manager, and then a sporting director. the sporting director should answer to the manager, not the other way around; why? the director isn't the one in the dug out, he isn't the one training the players, he isn't the one putting his arm around players after they get red carded, have bad games, or get injured. he should also have some knowledge of the market, what i don't want is mou vs valdano part 2 or directors who now think they're the coach e.g.arrigo sacchi. i like the low radar work monchi's doing, but i bet he works in tandem with the manager, and NOT by himself

James from Ballon d'Or to barn door- a good player but i think balon d'or is pushing it. he wasn't in our plans prior to the world cup. nobody was talking much about him (i'd have rather we kept di maria and gone for suarez that year, especially since pool wanted to sell. imagine the workrate). he had a good world cup and florentino went wild. maybe he's been played in the wrong position, but he's playing like those aliens in space jam stole his talent.

The heavyweights who weigh heavily on this season- 1 liga, 1 ucl, 2 copas in the last what, 7 or 8 years? nothing heavyweight about them....even atleti are doing better than us with less than half the budget....i want to say "end of an era" but i can't call it that if we haven't defined/dominated that era. so i'll say "end of a period"....and btw florentino for all his foolishness, gave them a chance by not going into the market last summer, but alas. they all made a lot of money for themselves at madrid though, can't fault them for that

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