Prime R9 vs Messi

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:59 pm

@Cruijf wrote:Not sure if you're an idiot Curtinho or just trolling Harmonica Laughing


He asked some perfectly reasonable questions

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Post by Cruijf on Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:38 am

He's comparing HGH to steroids Laughing

You can't seriously suggest they're even remotely comparable.

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Post by Neutropin on Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:20 am

@Cruijf wrote:He's comparing HGH to steroids Laughing

You can't seriously suggest they're even remotely comparable.


How much do you know about performance enhancing drugs? Nothing judging by your comments, google my username. As someone who uses steroids everything he said about steroids is wrong

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Post by Donuts on Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:24 am

my friend whose never played football has taken HGH are you saying he can be the next messi?!

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Post by sportsczy on Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:42 am

The only way to treat hypothyroidism is with synthroid... synthetic steroids. I know because I have a mild case of the condition. Getting fat is one possible issue. There are a lot of other issues if you don't take the synthroid. For me, my cholesterol levels were through the roof and triglycerides levels were awful too... got this way because of my other much bigger issue but that's neither here nor there. Don't talk crap about something you don't understand.

But carry on... ignorance is bliss.

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Post by FennecFox7 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:43 am

@Neutropin wrote:
@Cruijf wrote:He's comparing HGH to steroids Laughing

You can't seriously suggest they're even remotely comparable.


How much do you know about performance enhancing drugs? Nothing judging by your comments, google my username. As someone who uses steroids everything he said about steroids is wrong


Bullshit. You think R9 could not have snuck a cycle of test Susp or prop with the doctors at his disposal?? To cut he probably was on some kind of tren/anavar/winny mix for a bit along with test to kill his bodyfat. Players are rarely drug tested hard in football. If you knew anything about the juice then you would start admitting that theres a chance he did it.

At 5'11 1/2 and 185, yes that is very big for a sport where you run 7 miles a game and train aerobically.

Messi used HGH to get his levels back to normal. long term hgh abuse needs to be put in very high doses and combined with roids to make a difference. R9's steroid use is very likely. His power and acceleration were unreal. the dudes frame was tiny and he could not hold that much muscle naturally, but it stayed on due to the comeback of his hypothyroidism.
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Post by FennecFox7 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:49 am

@futbol wrote:Could beat way more defenders than Messi. Laughing


What goes through peoples minds when they post Laughing is R9 really that loved here? Come on, messi is on a tier with cruyff, zidane, platini..

Even CR is a tier above him. R9 was a great striker in his prime. Overall in his career? A good striker, nothing to write home about. and combine that with the questionable PED use.. yeah. not touching messi Laughing

And NO, not every footballer is on a mass building stack of steroids. I'd argue blood doping and some kind of endurance steroid is at play though. EQ comes to mind

Ronaldo played with fire and he got what was coming to him.
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Post by sportsczy on Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:00 am

It was a different game when R9 played in his prime...  Tackles were harder, refs were more tolerant of rough play and didn't hand out cards like candy, etc.  The game wasn't geared to emphasize goalscoring as much as today with the rules.  Just as an example, the wording of the offside rule was significantly changed in 2005 to allow a lot more play to remain active.  That was a MASSIVE change in the rules that allowed exponentially more goalscoring chances.

So i think you really need to consider pre 2005 stats and post 2005 stats.

At their peak, R9 and Messi were the same imo.  Problem is that R9's peak was very short while Messi has sustained his for a long time.  So Messi is obviously the better player due to his career being far more productive.

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:14 am

@Donuts wrote:my friend whose never played football has taken HGH are you saying he can be the next messi?!


Such a stupid post Laughing

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Post by Claudio84 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:20 am

@sportsczy wrote:It was a different game when R9 played in his prime...  Tackles were harder, refs were more tolerant of rough play and didn't hand out cards like candy, etc.  The game wasn't geared to emphasize goalscoring as much as today with the rules.  Just as an example, the wording of the offside rule was significantly changed in 2005 to allow a lot more play to remain active.  That was a MASSIVE change in the rules that allowed exponentially more goalscoring chances.

So i think you really need to consider pre 2005 stats and post 2005 stats.

At their peak, R9 and Messi were the same imo.  Problem is that R9's peak was very short while Messi has sustained his for a long time.  So Messi is obviously the better player due to his career being far more productive.

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Post by Curtinho on Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:29 pm

@Cruijf wrote:He's comparing HGH to steroids Laughing

You can't seriously suggest they're even remotely comparable.

You realize of course that top level athletes in every sport are using HGH to increase their performance levels (and have been caught doing so, and it's a banned substance), right?

Maybe you don't actually understand how either steroids or HGH work and should refrain from commenting. I know that you're trying to get a laugh out of making someone else look stupid, but you're actually just showing your ignorance.

But, since I like to consider myself an educator:

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/questions-answers/human-growth-hormone-hgh-testing

Please, take this opportunity to educate yourself.

...and for Harmonica I really shouldn't need to list the plethora of medical uses for steroids, but I wasn't even implying that Ronaldo was taking them for medical reasons -- only that just because something is used for medical reasons doesn't mean it isn't used for non-medical reasons (HGH in this case, since that's where you went to defend Messi). I don't really think you understand steroids, HGH, LSD or testosterone.

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:58 pm

@Curtinho wrote:
@Cruijf wrote:He's comparing HGH to steroids Laughing

You can't seriously suggest they're even remotely comparable.

You realize of course that top level athletes in every sport are using HGH to increase their performance levels (and have been caught doing so, and it's a banned substance), right?

Maybe you don't actually understand how either steroids or HGH work and should refrain from commenting. I know that you're trying to get a laugh out of making someone else look stupid, but you're actually just showing your ignorance.

But, since I like to consider myself an educator:

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/questions-answers/human-growth-hormone-hgh-testing

Please, take this opportunity to educate yourself.

...and for Harmonica I really shouldn't need to list the plethora of medical uses for steroids, but I wasn't even implying that Ronaldo was taking them for medical reasons -- only that just because something is used for medical reasons doesn't mean it isn't used for non-medical reasons (HGH in this case, since that's where you went to defend Messi). I don't really think you understand steroids, HGH, LSD or testosterone.
:facepalm:

I produced an argument (3 effects and 3 provided opinions) for Ronaldo taking illegal substance's, in this case steroids, which is called doping. He didn't have permission to take steroids, so it doesn't matter what health benefits is possesses. You answered with a trivial argument of Messi using HGH, which he used in limits and which he had a permit. Messi was smaller than average, less defined than average and more injury prone than average player in his youth. Next you will probably say that HGH taught him to dribble.

rofl


Last edited by Harmonica on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Curtinho on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:04 pm

Getting a permit or not doesn't change that it's performance enhancing. Should Sturridge be allowed to take steroids/HGH because he's injury prone? What about Ronaldo because of his knee problems? What about Joe Blow just because he's naturally not as athletic as top level athletes but he has wonderful skill? Where is the line drawn that you are allowed to take substances that improve your ability to perform just so you can be on the same level as a professional or better? How about people born without limbs -- in the future when robotics have advanced enough to replace those limbs should that be allowed?

Do you know how many UFC fighters suddenly had 'permits' to use TRT once it became a viable way to circumvent the suspensions for banned substances? Permits mean nothing to me (just like passing drug tests aren't really proof of anything). It's just as plausible that Barcelona saw an exceptionally gifted player that never would have been able to cope with the physical demands of the sport without the benefits of drugs, and thus they made an investment.

Messi is their Weapon X project.

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:09 pm

You're now arguing with completely trivial things. Ronaldo's knee problems were result of a steroid use, not the other way around. Get that in to your brain already.

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Post by Curtinho on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:11 pm

...and Messi's ability to cope with the physical demands of the sport at the top level are a result of HGH use, in fact he has a higher level of physical ability to the vast majority of people and footballers because of HGH use.

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:13 pm

Yeah, that's why he's smaller, has had more injuries than most and is less defined than average player, in his 20's and even today. What a bird brain. Laughing

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Post by Cruijf on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:14 pm

@Curtinho wrote:
@Cruijf wrote:He's comparing HGH to steroids Laughing

You can't seriously suggest they're even remotely comparable.

You realize of course that top level athletes in every sport are using HGH to increase their performance levels (and have been caught doing so, and it's a banned substance), right?

Maybe you don't actually understand how either steroids or HGH work and should refrain from commenting. I know that you're trying to get a laugh out of making someone else look stupid, but you're actually just showing your ignorance.

But, since I like to consider myself an educator:

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/questions-answers/human-growth-hormone-hgh-testing

Please, take this opportunity to educate yourself.

...and for Harmonica I really shouldn't need to list the plethora of medical uses for steroids, but I wasn't even implying that Ronaldo was taking them for medical reasons -- only that just because something is used for medical reasons doesn't mean it isn't used for non-medical reasons (HGH in this case, since that's where you went to defend Messi). I don't really think you understand steroids, HGH, LSD or testosterone.


So you really are serious Laughing

And I thought I had seen it all rofl

Messi was born with Growth Hormone Deficiency. That means his body did not produce the normal amounts of Growth Hormone that all humans need to reach their natural growth. This is a recognized condition, of which the treatment is using HGH. This allows the patient to correct the amount of growth hormone being used in their body.

Yes, anabolic steroids are commonly used for medical purposes. The difference is R9 did not have a recognized medical condition that demanded the use of steroids. Using them would thus be against the rules of every competition he participated in. He would rightly be disgraced and every accomplishment he achieved thrown out.

To compare someone with a medical condition using the recognized treatment in the industry to an athlete using performance enhancing drugs to gain an advantage is quite simply idiotic.

It's like saying someone with diabetes shouldn't be allow to play sports because they are using Insulin as a performance enhancing drug Laughing

It's honestly ridiculous, and I advise you to stop it before you embarrass yourself further.

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Post by Freeza on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:15 pm

Less defined?

I beg to differ

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Post by Cruijf on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:16 pm

Laughing

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:18 pm

@Cruijf wrote:
To compare someone with a medical condition using the recognized treatment in the industry to an athlete using performance enhancing drugs to gain an advantage is quite simply idiotic.



As i'm someone who does have a medical condition who takes steroids to treat it i find it quite offensive tbh.
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Post by Curtinho on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:20 pm

@Harmonica wrote:Yeah, that's why he's smaller, has had more injuries than most and is less defined than average player, in his 20's and even today. What a bird brain. Laughing

So what you're saying is that he would be as fast, have just as strong a base, and just as capable of playing football today had he not taken HGH? Also 5'7 is average for an Argentinian male, and you could just as easily argue his injuries are caused by the rigour of the sport and the amount of fouls he takes. As far as not being defined...

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Please sir, you are grasping. I'm not even decrying the use of PEDs tbh, since the vast majority of top level athletes use them. It's just a fact that Messi would not be the best player in history without the use of HGH -- he is far from natural (PEDs don't increase your skill directly, but they give a vast advantage in developing that skill, btw).

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:23 pm

@Cruijf wrote:
@Curtinho wrote:
@Cruijf wrote:He's comparing HGH to steroids Laughing

You can't seriously suggest they're even remotely comparable.

You realize of course that top level athletes in every sport are using HGH to increase their performance levels (and have been caught doing so, and it's a banned substance), right?

Maybe you don't actually understand how either steroids or HGH work and should refrain from commenting. I know that you're trying to get a laugh out of making someone else look stupid, but you're actually just showing your ignorance.

But, since I like to consider myself an educator:

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/questions-answers/human-growth-hormone-hgh-testing

Please, take this opportunity to educate yourself.

...and for Harmonica I really shouldn't need to list the plethora of medical uses for steroids, but I wasn't even implying that Ronaldo was taking them for medical reasons -- only that just because something is used for medical reasons doesn't mean it isn't used for non-medical reasons (HGH in this case, since that's where you went to defend Messi). I don't really think you understand steroids, HGH, LSD or testosterone.


So you really are serious Laughing

And I thought I had seen it all rofl

Messi was born with Growth Hormone Deficiency. That means his body did not produce the normal amounts of Growth Hormone that all humans need to reach their natural growth. This is a recognized condition, of which the treatment is using HGH. This allows the patient to correct the amount of growth hormone being used in their body.

Yes, anabolic steroids are commonly used for medical purposes. The difference is R9 did not have a recognized medical condition that demanded the use of steroids. Using them would thus be against the rules of every competition he participated in. He would rightly be disgraced and every accomplishment he achieved thrown out.

To compare someone with a medical condition using the recognized treatment in the industry to an athlete using performance enhancing drugs to gain an advantage is quite simply idiotic.

It's like saying someone with diabetes shouldn't be allow to play sports because they are using Insulin as a performance enhancing drug Laughing

It's honestly ridiculous, and I advise you to stop it before you embarrass yourself further.
Curtinho just can't understand that, it's like talking to a completely oblivious person.
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Post by Freeza on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:25 pm

Well I'm all for using HGH to prevent injuries and in Messi's case his lack of growth. Anything to keep players from being injured and actually being able to see some magic. If there was a drug that could've kept R9 injury free, I'd do almost anything for that.

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Post by Harmonica on Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:36 pm

@Harmonica wrote:
@futbol wrote:Could beat way more defenders than Messi. Laughing
Almost fell from my chair when I read that. In WC98 when Ronaldo still supposedly was in his prime (on steroids) managed to beat 16 players in the whole tournament in 7 games.

Players beat by dribble (opta)

Messi WC10 34 (5), 6,80
Messi CA11 32 (4), 8,00
Messi WC14 46 (7), 6,57
Messi CA15 43 (6), 7,17
Messi average 155 (22), 7,05 players per game

Ronaldo WC98 16 (7), 2,29 players per game

Pick any version of Messi, or even career average, and it's not even remotely close comparison. Messi career average is over 3x Ronaldo's prime ffs.  Laughing
That's dribbling, now the end product of Ronaldo's prime season

Ronaldo 96-97 47 goals + 10 assists = directly part of 57 goals or 44% of overall 131 goals.
Messi 11-12 73 goals + 36 assists = directly part of 109 goals or 61% of overall 180 goals (excl. CDR R32, wasn't played back then)

Barcelona 96-97 without Ronaldo's direct input scored 74 goals.
Barcelona 11-12 without Messi's direct input scored 71 goals.

Ronaldo 96-97 47 goals, 37 or 79% directly assisted
Messi 11-12 73 goals, 32 or 44% directly assisted

Lets summarize, Messi 11-12 scored or created 91% more goals than Ronaldo 96-97, with a worse supporting cast that scored 71 goals compared of Barcelona 96-97 74 goals, and created most of his own goals where as most of Ronaldo's goals were directly provided to him. Kind of close, not.

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Post by Neutropin on Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:18 pm

@FennecFox7 wrote:
@Neutropin wrote:
@Cruijf wrote:He's comparing HGH to steroids Laughing

You can't seriously suggest they're even remotely comparable.


How much do you know about performance enhancing drugs? Nothing judging by your comments, google my username. As someone who uses steroids everything he said about steroids is wrong


Bullshit. You think R9 could not have snuck a cycle of test Susp or prop with the doctors at his disposal?? To cut he probably was on some kind of tren/anavar/winny mix for a bit along with test to kill his bodyfat. Players are rarely drug tested hard in football. If you knew anything about the juice then you would start admitting that theres a chance he did it.

At 5'11 1/2 and 185, yes that is very big for a sport where you run 7 miles a game and train aerobically.

Messi used HGH to get his levels back to normal. long term hgh abuse needs to be put in very high doses and combined with roids to make a difference. R9's steroid use is very likely. His power and acceleration were unreal. the dudes frame was tiny and he could not hold that much muscle naturally, but it stayed on due to the comeback of his hypothyroidism.

the fact that you suggested an athlete would use winny or tren ever shows that you know absolutely nothing about steroids. Winny absolutly kills your joints, litterally the worst thing for them, no one who knows anything about steroids would ever give winny to someone who has to run. As for tren that totally kills cardio. He would not be able to run, not to mention his bp would be through the roof, also heart rate would be way to high for him to be able to run for more than like 1-2 minutes. Not to mention the night sweats you get from tren, he would not be able to sleep and would never be in the right place metally to play football

DO some research, just becuase you know a few names doesnt make you knowledgable

Also the clearence time for HGH is 12 hours tops and there are new types that are undetectable by a drug test so it would be no problem for messi to use them in large dosages.

Lastly steroids that give you an atheltic advantage in football dont cause ligament damage so I dont want to hear that again.

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Post by Myesyats on Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:51 pm

@Curtinho wrote:...and Messi's ability to cope with the physical demands of the sport at the top level are a result of HGH use, in fact he has a higher level of physical ability to the vast majority of people and footballers because of HGH use.

Messis teammates have claimed that has some sort of an supernatural ability when it comes to regaining fitness after suffering an injury. hmm

Could be the HGH or a pact with the Devil. hmm I personally opt for the latter. hmm

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