Bring back Özil

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Re: Bring back Özil

Post by Adit on Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:05 pm

We can't bring back desire though. You can have all the technically gifted players but still loose if they don't have desire to win consistently.

Players walked under Benitez and we thought it was a managerial problem and he got sacked.

Later after the honeymoon period with zidane things went back to normal level. Intensity dropped,Bernabue questioned players desire one month before with a board that said "if you wear this jearsy you have to sweat it" something along the line. Zidane publically called out team to run more.. Especially some players. When questioned their v desire they ran like mad men against some teams and we thought every thing is alright. Then came the lethargic display against Las palmas and we realized it was just temporary rush of blood.

Then again they committed themselves against Barcelona, no body has to explain where the desire came from. We are now back to believing that these players have the desire to win important matches atleast. They gave us hope. Two days later again lethargic and unambitious display. This time against Wolfsburg in the only competition we have a chance to win.


Does it look like one off thing to you guys. Honestly think the damage is permanent. We can't buy desire to the team... Players needs to have it or manager has to bring it. Not alot manager can do though. The fact that we ran the least in our entire CL campaign was a total shock.

This is why it's important to sell the senior members whome are holding us back. Proof? 1 league in 8 years.

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Re: Bring back Özil

Post by titosantill on Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:17 pm

yes. desire is a huge part of it. i watched colombia's last qualifier (for whatever reason, i think i was just bored), and i was pissed cos i felt like why can't we have this version of james. look at the barcelona game; why can't we play with that same desire all season long - i understand, its tough to be on your game throughout a whole year. but, your rivals constantly making fun of you, should at least light a fire, especially as you all consider yourselves top players in the sport....desire is lacking. although even with all the desire, some of these players are bound to still act like blockheads.....ramos
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Re: Bring back Özil

Post by sportsczy on Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:05 pm

Do you disagree that all the top managers, past and present, had very definitive playing tactics and philosophies?  Again, you don't adapt to the players anymore than within the confines of your tactics/philosophy.  It's up to the players to adapt themselves the rest of the way.  If a player cannot sufficiently adapt and you can't find a way to make him fit...  that player is sold and you get a better fit.

The best managers are able to get the best players to buy into their philosophy and make the players adjust.

There's a reason most elite managers make pretty significant changes once they take over OR pick a team they feel fits them.  Carlo, for example, had a very distinct style and tactic.  So did Mou.  Pep is the same and so is Wenger.  Klopp is another example.  I can go on and on.

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Re: Bring back Özil

Post by titosantill on Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:54 pm

my point surrounds the idea of there being some overarching or most effective tactic, which i don't believe in. i never said coaches don't have ideas, my argument was there's no 1 best strategy, and those who have enforced some major strategy have always had the players to execute it, at least in most cases. sacchi carlo and whoever didn't win 'with a bunch of nobodies pus eye opening tactics'
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Re: Bring back Özil

Post by sportsczy on Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:10 am

I disagree... the top managers have a somewhat rigid tactical idealogy. For example, Mou always plays a 4231 and Carlo always plays either a 433 or diamond 442. They make everyone fit to their schemes because they've spent years, if not decades, perfecting their teams' execution of their set. They adjust as much as possible... but they won't compromise the overall tactic for anyone. You can't be a jack of all trades and a master of none as a club manager. The only level where the manager adapts to his players is at the NT level because you can't buy/sell players there... France NT brought in Blanc, for example, who wanted to play a possession-style 433 tactic. Well France post 2010 didn't have the talent to execute that. It wasn't a complete disaster... but it was very very poor.

That's the big problem with Madrid btw... they don't have a project. You pick a manager with a certain philosophy and then you build the best team you can to execute it. Madrid buys players haphazardly and then keeps changing managers who aren't even remotely similar in their philosophies. So you end up starting all over every time because the mix of players aren't right for what each manager wants to execute most often.

I'll add that most top shelf players can play almost any system... so individually, it shouldn't be a problem. But there are some limitations there: You have to mix and match profiles to make a team work in terms of bringing the players' abilities together within what you want to do.

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Re: Bring back Özil

Post by sportsczy on Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:15 am

Sacchi most definitely had a set philosophy and tactic... very much so.  He killed the libero role (which was prevalent) and also adopted the false 9 CF...  he basically married Italian tactics with some Dutch elements.  

He still adopted a 442 but with high line, very active midfield and strikers who needed to come back and help the midfielders.  He NEVER wanted there to be more than 25 meters separating his defense from his forwards.

Sacchi reasoned that by squeezing the pitch, in order for his opponent to get through his side, they'd need to break down three lines of players in quick succession. Not many managed it.

Very very good manager obviously...  but with very very disciplined and set tactics.

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Re: Bring back Özil

Post by titosantill on Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:36 pm

you're missing my point. i haven't said managers don't have a style they prefer. to bring it back to the thread, because i don't think that was the initial argument...i believe it was guest7 or Valkyrja who questioned why the team must be set in a 4 3 3. i believe their question isn't about this season, but next season, pretty much 'why are we still planning to invest in players next year to suit a style that according to them is not working' (pls if i'm misinterpreting your points, guest n Valkyrja, feel free to correct me)

and i pretty much agreed, not to say 4 3 3 is crap, or we should change it, but we can't go into every season saying "we must play this way come rain or sunshine especially if we don't have the right players capable". now a coach can do that, based on what he plans (i'm all for coaches having full control of the squad). but for us to maintain that whoever comes in, whether coach or players it must or must not be 4 3 3 is what i don't agree with
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Re: Bring back Özil

Post by chad4401 on Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:17 pm

too much hypocrisy on this forum 4-2-3-1 is a failure line up for RM, all the managers tried to accommodate an AM, they all end up going with a 4-3-3, only zidane didn't even bother.

some of you guys don't care what works or what doesn't, just want the hype players to play, instead on building the squad properly around the 4-3-3, and stop buying unnecessary players to waste half the season trying crap, just to revert back to the 4-3-3.

don't know what you guys gain from pretending otherwise, but the team doesn't need more than 1 way to play, this is not fifa and you guys need to grow up, stop making silly threads, filled with silly logic that never pan out, it just shows the lack of understanding some have towards football.

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Re: Bring back Özil

Post by sportsczy on Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:29 pm

@titosantill wrote:you're missing my point. i haven't said managers don't have a style they prefer. to bring it back to the thread, because i don't think that was the initial argument...i believe it was guest7 or Valkyrja who questioned why the team must be set in a 4 3 3. i believe their question isn't about this season, but next season, pretty much 'why are we still planning to invest in players next year to suit a style that according to them is not working' (pls if i'm misinterpreting your points, guest n Valkyrja, feel free to correct me)

and i pretty much agreed, not to say 4 3 3 is crap, or we should change it, but we can't go into every season saying "we must play this way come rain or sunshine especially if we don't have the right players capable". now a coach can do that, based on what he plans (i'm all for coaches having full control of the squad). but for us to maintain that whoever comes in, whether coach or players it must or must not be 4 3 3 is what i don't agree with


OK.  Now i get it and agree.  But the issue is that coaches don't really train themselves like that.  There are specific training methods for each philosophy and you perfect those as a manager...  If your personnel is set up for a 4231, then you need to bring in a manager that prefers that tactic.

Rafa is a 4231 guy but he failed badly as a manager...  mainly because we can't even play that because Kroos/Modric are a poor pairing for a double pivot not to mention our line gaps were horrible.  

I honestly don't even know what a good scheme would be for this group.  I think Casemiro is a must to stabilize the defensive side of the midfield.  Splitting Kroos and Modric ahead of him makes sense too.  BBC is a problem...  because Bale and especially CR only track back on special occasions lol.  It's the lack of consistency with the defensive effort on their wings that creates a huge problem.

I also think that Pepe, Ramos and Marcelo are absolutely putrid on defense so we can't even defend properly.

In the end, we cannot grind out a result.  We need to score.  So all the pressure is on the attack to score multiple goals.  I don't think that's a winning formula because you won't always have a euphoric attacking day... scoring goals has peaks and valleys even with the greatest of teams.

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