Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by futbol_bill on Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:29 pm

the lot of you have been pushing for Benz not to have any competition for several years and once that happened then you say we should have a backup and that he is injury prone.

The fact is that most big teams always have at least 2 CF and that is the position that mostly gets subbed in. Why, to bring fresh legs to this demanding position. last year we had a backup, but Carlo had no confidence in noone on the bench and instead ran Benz into the ground. same the year before. Zidane is doing better but he doesn't really have an alternative.

The club is planning on a backup next year!!! Morata!!

Although the lot of you have simply rejected it, probably remembering the player we sold as opposed to the player he now is. He is a far different player than the one who left here a couple of years ago, still developing and much better at this point than the one who was kept (Jese). he is not only going to make the seleccion, he may even be a starter.

He's not as good as Benz, you have said. Noone has said he is. He won't accept a bench role you have also said. He isn't a regular starter where he is now so why would he expect it at a bigger club. There is playing time for both, plus Morata has proven he can play as a SS or wing as well leading to more playing time for him. A move like this would also enhance Benz form, given his playing time is managed and he won't have those lazy moments we all seem to notice from time to time.


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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by titosantill on Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:34 pm

i haven't watched much of juventus in the second half of the season or rather since February so can't speak much on morata or any of their players. i don't think i mind morata, nor anyonw who's actually good, i just don't want an old relic, and i don't want a young scrub who will be happy to seat on the bench

two, i've been vehemently opposed to having one striker or one player in any position; i'm lenient towards having a less than stellar back up goalie, but i'm not sure where the idea of having only one cf, or one cf and a scrub back up came from. with 60 plus games in a season, its an extremely ridiculous policy, i'm not sure if there were many fans on here who wanted it, but its completely foolish, doesn't promote competition and is very dangerous to the long term career of the cf himself with things like injuries, fatigue and unnecessary injections and pain killers to get one prepared nearing the end of the season

even bale and cristiano have back ups (i'm hoping lucas can get some better minutes next season and compete with bale); jese needs to now focus on being a better winger, i don't think he can operate in the forward role
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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:00 pm

Morata has 8 goals and 8 assists on the season in 39 appearances (21 starts).  He's rotating with Mandzukic.  He's not really a scorer and couldn't hold down the starting job, which is why he's rotating.  Very streaky and can't really sustain it long enough.

This is an example where rotation has failed imo.  They've played 70 games between the two of them and they have 20 goals and 9 assists total while neither is in very good form because they don't get enough of a run (although I admit both were given a chance to win the job outright but couldn't).

If Morata is ok with being a backup, that's great.  But he's not starter material.  

The last thing to keep in mind is that Juve play a 352 or 442... so the front two strikers have a lot of freedom.  When you play a system with 3 forwards, you're constrained and really need to be effective within a defined set of parameters, especially with Ronaldo and Bale.

Finally, there are roughly 70-75 games per season. The main CF should play 50 and the backup 20-25. That's how it works everywhere. Our issue is that we don't have a proper CF to even play those 20-25 starts, let alone more if injuries happen. So we need someone.

The issue with Carlo is that he rotated like crazy until January and then rode the starting 11 to death through May. That's not how rotation works. You can ride the starting 11 for 1-2 months... but not 5. It's about accumulation of strain in short timeframes. You need to find a rotation you would be comfortable with until mid-March AND THEN ride the starting 11. That's why our guys burned out in late March/early April the two seasons he was here.

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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by futbol_bill on Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:35 pm

Carlo did not do rotation with the CF spot in either of his two years before Christmas nor afterwards.

@Tito, I know the so called analysts on this forum don't drive team policy, but there was a huge outcry for the team to get rid of one of Pipita or Benz and then not to have any more rotation at that spot. The other driving force was the stubbornness of Carlo to not play his bench.

@ Sports, No one  is saying Morata should be the starter nor is anyone saying that the CF spot should be rotation. We (at least I and now Tito) are saying we need a backup who can play and yes should start a decent amount of games (the 20 you mentioned sounds about right). But also the key point from my post, I believe you are missing is the CF spot is the one position that should regularly be subbed meaning the backup would be played 15 to 20 minutes a lot of the time. Also this backup if he is versatile like Morata is turning out to be can get extra minutes in playing as a SS or wing on occasions. In my opinion, Morata is best in the sub role, he brings in energy and good movement in that role. And that energy and movement creates chances not necessary for himself but other forwards as well. I've seen this both with Juve and with seleccion. He has been very good with his play on seleccion and he almost for sure will be on the Euro team.

I believe having a backup such as Morata will do a couple of positive things for Benz.
1. He can have his minutes managed properly and thus he won't be injured as much.
2. He doesn't need to conserve his energy (lazy as some here will say) given he knows an energetic competent replacement will relieve him when necessary.
3. The competition is always good to up the challenge.
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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:09 pm

yes he did.  He was rotating Jese in quite a lot before he got injured.  That forced his hand in terms of the CF spot.  Morata was getting a look too early on (hence the media's articles that he should start) 3 years ago.  But Morata really trailed off which pushed his CF playing time to Jese

Also keep in mind that Morata is only truly effective in counter attacks where he can use his pace.  He has been very poor when teams have sat back... which is 95% of the time in Serie A for Juve.  That's why you see him have good games against Bayern, Barca and Madrid as Juve were set up in a counter attack style.  That's really his very big weakness.

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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:19 pm

I don't want Morata back. I don't want a back-up striker. I want a proper CF to compete with Benzema for the starting spot.

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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:22 pm

That's not going to happen.  No proper top shelf CF is going to come to Madrid to "compete" when he can go anywhere he wants almost and have no competition.

This is not an environment where top class CFs share the spotlight for any team.  Bayern, Barca, City, Madrid, PSG, etc. all have very clear #1 CFs who get all the mins when healthy and have no backup.  Only PSG has Cavani... but he is extremely unhappy and will leave to go somewhere where he's a guaranteed regular.

The only places where you have multiple CFs competing are teams that have marginal or extremely young talent at the position.

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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:37 pm

There will always be elite players out there with enough talent and confidence to take up any challenge that may lay before them and not shy away from competition...Especially when the competition is Benzema.

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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:05 pm

No they won't.  Nobody.  Even Aubameyang came out and said he would never go to a team where he wasn't the top striker even if it was Madrid or City recently (two of the team he's been rumored to)...  just not going to happen.  I was hopeful with him too.

They have no reason whatsoever to take such a risk.  There are plenty of teams nowadays that will pay you the same wage and very few top shelf strikers to be had.  It's not like the past where you had 3-4 teams that paid a top wage and everyone else were below it....  all of EPL can and you can add Bayern, Madrid, Barca and PSG to those.  Even Juve is thinking about breaking the bank to try and keep Pogba or sign Cavani allegedly.

These are different times with the massive shared media deals.

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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by futbol_bill on Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:15 pm

You are rewriting history Sports with regards to Carlo. He did give the very odd start to Morata, Jese and Chicha, but they certainly were not rotating. They got minutes in a sub role not from starting. And as we have said earlier, he insisted on playing 12 players for vast majority of season. Most important from my perspective is he didn't sub out the CF, whereas this is the position that should be subbed out the majority of the time.

And you are severely underestimating Morata, obviously have not seen him in seleccion games. He's not elite but certainly not a scrub and not a rookie. He is definitely a better CF than Jese and for that matter Majoral.

I'm not insisting he is the answer, but I do believe that is what the club is planning to do.
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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by Nivash on Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:33 pm

Why not give James a shot as a second striker type of CF, especially given that our wing players are more the goal scoring than goal creating types.

Doesn't he play a similar role for Colombia? Or at least did when Falcao got injured and they needed someone to step up?

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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by titosantill on Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:51 pm

i've been very critical of james, not just this season but last season as well (i criticized him for the injuries last year). i've caught a couple of colombia games and the guy can play, obviously its a different role he has there, a bigger role. he isn't a striker, and i'm not sure him playing once more out of position will help, on paper it sounds like a good move, but in reality moving from central mid to winger to the position he played in rafa's formation, i'm not sure that would work. i also don't think zidane is the kind to start trying strange formations or line ups. the best thing james can do for himself is prove to zidane that he needs an attacking midfielder- by creating chances for himself and others. he's not guti, who could slot into multiple positions relatively comfortably. so james as co/back up cf, is a no for me
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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:42 am

@ Bill

Here are Jese, Chicha and Morata profiles.
http://www.espnfc.us/player/162453/jese
http://www.espnfc.us/player/154446/alvaro-morata
http://www.espnfc.us/player/146419/javier-hernandez

2013/2014 - Jese and Morata combined for 18 starts
2014/2015 - Chicha and Jese combined for 14 starts

I think 20-25 is a better number... in any case, the issue was that these starts occurred either early in the season or late when Benz was either hurt or burnt out (i.e. too late).  They were more out of necessity later on rather than a thought out substitution plan.

The season is 8 months.  Early on, you play once a week so there's no need.  But when you're looking 2 games a week, you should rotate regularly.  We never did that.  For some strange reason, Carlo would rotate when we had 1 game a week... and then never do it when the schedule got heavy Laughing

BTW!!! Chicha has 27 goals for Leverkusen this season.

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Re: Rayo Vallecano vs Real Madrid

Post by Turok_TTZ on Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:29 am

My boy hernandez is doing well at leverkusen. didnt i tell you he was legit sports?

No sensible top striker would surrender minutes for bench role. Raul left us because he could not be satisfied with a backup role and was very competitive about his place on the team. If you want to be a star striker, you need such attitude.

Our best bet is either a very young talent or a veteran who doesnt mind the role and can knick a goal here and there.

I understand Real Madrid is interested in Morata though I feel he isn't the right choice... Rather see Mayoral given the role.

unlike the majority of madrid fans here, I actually have some faith in our academy. just need to give them a chance. thats why we have cantera. I prefer a young blood who fully understands what it means to play for this shirt and has something to prove. need such attitude on a team like this.
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