The 442 is back

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Post by sportsczy Tue May 03, 2016 11:19 pm

Always loved this system... probably because it's the only system i ever played in Laughing In any case, the issue in the past was that you had 2 strikers defensively and in ball recovery who just couldn't do their part. But if at least 1 of the strikers does the job on defense, then it's still the best way to play imo. Why? nobody is left to make differences alone. You have 2 strikers, 2 to the left (leftback and left CM), 2 to the right (rightback and right CM) and 2 to the middle (central CMs). Every player has support if it's executed properly.

Heck, i think Pep even played a 442 today and, despite losing the tie, it was effective.

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Post by farfan Tue May 03, 2016 11:22 pm

Hard to argue against this when you see what Atletico and Leicester are doing at the moment .
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue May 03, 2016 11:24 pm

You are aware that Atleti only turned it around when they switched to 433 at HT, right?
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Post by Casciavit Tue May 03, 2016 11:25 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:You are aware that Atleti only turned it around when they switched to 433 at HT, right?


Laughing
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Post by sportsczy Tue May 03, 2016 11:35 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:You are aware that Atleti only turned it around when they switched to 433 at HT, right?

4141...  not 433.  Switched out of the 442 because Augusto Fernandez and Saul were having poor games.  They needed more support.  Moved Griezmann into right CM and put Carrasco as left CM.  Gabi was sitting right in front of the defense while Koke and Saul moved closer to each other in the middle.  The players just got closer together.

The intent was to play their regular 442 but Simeone tweaked it to allow for Carrasco to come on without losing his defensive rigidity.
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Post by Turok_TTZ Tue May 03, 2016 11:38 pm

sportsczy wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:You are aware that Atleti only turned it around when they switched to 433 at HT, right?

4141...  not 433.  Switched out of the 442 because Augusto Fernandez and Saul were having poor games.  They needed more support. Moved Griezmann into right CM and put Carrasco as left CM. Gabi was sitting right in front of the defense while Koke and Saul moved closer to each other in the middle. The players just got closer together.

4-1-4-1 and 442.crazy solid imo.
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Post by Cruijf Tue May 03, 2016 11:58 pm

sportsczy wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:You are aware that Atleti only turned it around when they switched to 433 at HT, right?

4141...  not 433. Switched out of the 442 because Augusto Fernandez and Saul were having poor games.  They needed more support.  Moved Griezmann into right CM and put Carrasco as left CM.  Gabi was sitting right in front of the defense while Koke and Saul moved closer to each other in the middle.  The players just got closer together.

The intent was to play their regular 442 but Simeone tweaked it to allow for Carrasco to come on without losing his defensive rigidity.


Please stop. You know full well there is no difference but are trying to save face for your original error. And the fact remains, this amazing 4-4-2 that is supposedly back was ripped apart by Bayern like few systems have been ripped apart.
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Post by Lord Awesome Wed May 04, 2016 12:08 am

It's "the" classic formation. It's survived the test of time and til today still remains relevant.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed May 04, 2016 12:17 am

sportsczy wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:You are aware that Atleti only turned it around when they switched to 433 at HT, right?

4141...  not 433.  Switched out of the 442 because Augusto Fernandez and Saul were having poor games.  They needed more support.  Moved Griezmann into right CM and put Carrasco as left CM.  Gabi was sitting right in front of the defense while Koke and Saul moved closer to each other in the middle.  The players just got closer together.

The intent was to play their regular 442 but Simeone tweaked it to allow for Carrasco to come on without losing his defensive rigidity.


Only a semantic difference, and in either case still not a 442


Last edited by BarrileteCosmico on Wed May 04, 2016 12:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by sportsczy Wed May 04, 2016 12:18 am

There's a huge difference Cruijf...  in a 433, you have 3 forwards on the same line IN FRONT of the midfielders.  In a 4141, you have the wingers on the SAME LINE as the midfielders with a sole striker on top as the focal point.  Couldn't be more different.  The 4141 is a derivative of a 442.
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Post by Lord Awesome Wed May 04, 2016 12:22 am

And here I thought 4-1-4-1 was derivative from 4-5-1. FML XD
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Post by Kick Wed May 04, 2016 12:28 am

It could be argued many formations are derivatives of the 4-4-2 Laughing

Anyway, I don't think it's back, I don't think it ever really left, and it has to be played well to work, otherwise a 3/5 man midfield is better.
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Post by sportsczy Wed May 04, 2016 12:36 am

well that's true Laughing  

It's more about the base tactics of a team and the derivatives of that.  If your base tactic is a 442, you're not going to move far away from it when you make in-game adjustments.

It's more about the player profiles, how they move, etc.  Pep used a 4141 too but it was entirely different because his player profiles and the way the ball/players were designed around his philosophy.

Even the 442 can be executed very differently based on a manager's philosophy.

I just like how balanced a 442 shape is.  You're not putting overwhelming responsibility on one player.  You're spreading the responsibility around.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed May 04, 2016 12:47 am

sportsczy wrote:There's a huge difference Cruijf...  in a 433, you have 3 forwards on the same line IN FRONT of the midfielders.  In a 4141, you have the wingers on the SAME LINE as the midfielders with a sole striker on top as the focal point.  Couldn't be more different.  The 4141 is a derivative of a 442.


Come on now, the defining feature of a 442 is that its a two CF system. The only difference between a 4141 and a 433 is how far back the wingers are. A 4141 is not derivative of a 442, they are fundamentally different systems (3 midfielders vs 2, 1 CF vs 2, player in the hole vs none, etc).
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Post by sportsczy Wed May 04, 2016 1:01 am

I disagree.  The defining aspects of a 442 are as follows:
-  defensive line of 4, midfield line of 4, attacking line of 2
-  left CM and right CM work both defensively and on the attack with their respective full backs.  You can use wingers or B2Bs in those midfield roles.  
-  Central CMs can either work as a group on both the attack and defense OR you have a holding CM and a more advanced CM.
-  Striker pairing is usually a CF and a SS.  Could be a CF and a 10.

But if you had to take one overriding aspect...  defensive line of 4, midfield line of 4, attacking line of 2.
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Post by Cruijf Wed May 04, 2016 1:22 am

The main difference between 4-4-2 and 4-3-3/4-51/4-1-4-1/whatever you want to call it is you sacrifice a strker for an extra midfielder. In the OP you mentioned the 4-4-2 is best because you have two in the midfield, two on the flanks, and two up top. By sacrificing a striker you lose that, you're now isolating one player up top. It's no longer the 4-4-2 that is supposedly making a comeback.

Really though I don't like these discussions about formations. Chelsea last year played 4-2-3-1, Bayern in 12/13 played 4-2-3-1 and their playstyles couldn't be any more different. So to say one formation is 'back' or is 'the best' really means nothing.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed May 04, 2016 1:28 am

Going to drop some truth bombs here so get ready.

4-4-2 is 4-4-2

4-1-4-1 is not 4-4-2


Let that sink in.
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Post by sportsczy Wed May 04, 2016 1:32 am

It changed from a 442 on both attack and defense to a 4141 on defense that transitioned to a 442 on the attack... Griezmann would help the midfield right and then dive in the middle whenever Atleti had the ball in Bayern's half.  They needed him to make that extra effort on defense and to help get the ball out of their own half.  They were turning the ball over like crazy in the first half whenever they got it back.

If you watch the goal, you see Gabi running from his DM spot to the right to compensate for Griezmann moving to a striker position.

That's why he was completely wrecked when he was subbed.  Gabi was dead on his feet the last 10 mins too.  Those two were asked to do a ton more work in the 2nd half.
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Post by Andrew Wed May 04, 2016 1:35 am

Formaception

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Post by Jay29 Wed May 04, 2016 1:39 am

I don't even believe the 4-4-2 actually left, not in the defensive phase of play at least. The 4-2-3-1 that's been so popular often defends in a 4-4-1-1, which is just a 4-4-2 with a withdrawn striker.

And regardless of which of the formations teams are playing, they're still defending with a back four and four in midfield. Just as Atleti and Leicester now defend with a back four and four in midfield, with one of the strikers dropping deeper and one staying up.

Trying to apply a numerical label to how these teams set-up in the attacking phase is pointless because players are so much more flexible in their positioning now and you see more lopsided shapes. Rather than bringing back a formation, what they're doing is using a style of build-up and offence that was thought to be old fashioned with the recent fad of possession and packing teams with as many midfielders as possible.

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Post by sportsczy Wed May 04, 2016 1:40 am

You guys have a religious problem with a 442 Laughing The way you attack it, I feel like i said something sacrilegious and I must be eliminated. Should I call the FBI for protection? Laughing
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Post by titosantill Wed May 04, 2016 2:01 am

i agree with cruijf and lord awesome, 4 3 3, 4 2 3 1, 4 5 1 are pretty much from the same tree; 1 primary cf and wingers, with variations in the midfield. some would say a 4 3 3 utilizes wing forwards/ inverted wingers, whatever you want to call them, but imo that's largely dependent on the kind of player you have there. cos the formation states 4 3 3, does not mean the wingers automatically become goalscorers- yes that's the case in madrid and barcelona because of the players in that position

primary difference with a 4 4 2 as has been stated is the sacrificing of the second striker; either to replace him with an attacking mid (hole player) in a 4 2 3 1, or somewhere else in the middle of the park. also the old school wingers in a 4 4 2, were not limited to playing along the flanks, many of them could be considered attacking mids as well; they weren't scorers but their play wasn't limited to the wings

finally, agree with cruijf once again on disliking discussions pertaining to formations; they change everyday and sometimes every other minute depending on the match ups, and sometimes little changes here and there are given way too much importance in the set ups, a 4 1 4 1 and 4 3 3 largely still has the same base of 3 in the middle. sometimes i hate the little distinctions made, it feels 'video-gameish'. the role of the wingers depends largely on the kind of player one has in that system, but the core of 1 cf , 4 in the back, midfield trio and 2 on the flanks is the same......extremely different from a 4 4 2 @ least in my opinion
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Post by sportsczy Wed May 04, 2016 2:44 am

Griezmann is a striker though... he only played on the wing defensively in the second half and changed the defensive shape to a 4141.  On the attack, he played right next to Torres.  He just had a longer ways to run to get there since he was out wide and low defensively and helped move the ball along if needed during the trip.  Saul or Gabi would move wide on the attack to take that spot so they were back to a 442.
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Post by Lucifer Wed May 04, 2016 6:22 am

I maybe wrong  here if so please someone correct me but isn't the main weakness of 442 is lack of defensive midfielder while the single defensive midfielder in the 4141 formation needs to play two important roles. One being, acting as cover for defence and making hard tackles and the second being as a mediator between the defence and the midfield as well as a sweeper clearing the balls ahead.

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Post by sportsczy Wed May 04, 2016 6:39 am

depends how you play it. 442 is just the shape. It's not a style of play. You can play a lot of different styles out of that shape depending on the player profiles. Back in the day, Juve played a 442 with Tardelli as a DM and Platini as a 10. That's a diamond 442. Carlo loves the diamond 442 as well. You can also play a 442 with tighter gaps so you don't need a DM and the midfield plays flatter... France NT used to do that in the 80s with Tigana-Giresse-Fernandez-Platini.

Mourinho said that his 4231 would always have an advantage over the 442 because, with 2 strikers in a 442, he had a one man advantage both in ball recovery and when he attacked. But that's gone out the window as strikers have become well rounded.
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