Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by sportsczy on Fri May 27, 2016 10:35 am

Oh you guys will see next year... Klopp just got there, Pep is coming and Mourinho will get Man U organized.  EPL will start getting some very good results in Europe once the squads get into shape to the liking of these managers.  Next year's CL will only be about City since Arsenal, Spurs and Leicester aren't at the top level.  But i bet you both Man U and Liverpool get into CL the year after and then you'll see some real fireworks.

Just the amount of money that every club can spend is astounding.  For example, West Ham offered 40 mil euros for Lacazette and 25 mil for Mandanda.  Every single good player in Ligue 1 is getting big offers from EPL clubs regardless of their table ranking.  No other league has clubs that can do that.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by RealGunner on Fri May 27, 2016 10:46 am

The more competitive EPL is, the worse they will do in CL imo

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Fri May 27, 2016 10:51 am

@sportsczy wrote:Oh you guys will see next year... Klopp just got there, Pep is coming and Mourinho will get Man U organized.  EPL will start getting some very good results in Europe once the squads get into shape to the liking of these managers.  Next year's CL will only be about City since Arsenal, Spurs and Leicester aren't at the top level.  But i bet you both Man U and Liverpool get into CL the year after and then you'll see some real fireworks.

Just the amount of money that every club can spend is astounding.  For example, West Ham offered 40 mil euros for Lacazette and 25 mil for Mandanda.  Every single good player in Ligue 1 is getting big offers from EPL clubs regardless of their table ranking.  No other league has clubs that can do that.


Maybe it will, maybe it won't. We'll see but as of now the standard is poor.

As for the Ligue 1 thing, that's been the case for years lol.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by LeBéninois on Fri May 27, 2016 11:06 am

City has more money and a great manager . For the next 5 years they ay have the brightest future but Man U is going to come back. They went through a harsh path but they were still competing somehow. i respect that.

Btw Ligue 1 is going to get so weak . West ham has more money than anyone in their league bar PSG ...

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by titosantill on Fri May 27, 2016 11:37 am

@RealGunner wrote:The more competitive EPL is, the worse they will do in CL imo



not necessarily so. it was competitive in the rafa, mou, fergie, wenger period; between say  04/05-maybe 09 or 08 whichever one. and the teams still did well in europe, i think at one point there were 3 or 4 epl sides in the semis, and the midtable sides could still cause problems. besides that, the 4 clubs could move reasonably well in the market. arsenal didn't spend cos of stadium concerns, but it wasn't like the italian league is now, where nobody is attracted to go there.

the market and being able to attract players is part of a strong league, not just ucl appearances. and i agree with sportczy, the coaching aspect can't be ignored. i'm not saying those are the best coaches or that they'll reap rewards soon enough, cos i have problems with all those guys he mentioned. but they've got ucl experience, and they are at least good enough to get players to buy into them at least in the short term

as for the league vs league debate, i don't care for it. for me, i consider a league crap when i'm not bothered to follow it or watch the main games anymore (e.g. what the italian league is now).....i still catch a lot of epl games, i enjoy the drama and rivalries. its not a bore-fest......and neither is it the best league, cos as someone mentioned "competition doesn't equal best"......btw i don't believe there is a best league....there was one in serie a, a while back, no major league in recent time has reached those heights
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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by Winter is Coming on Fri May 27, 2016 11:47 am

It'll be interesting to see who wins the PL. Mou, Conte, Klopp will go all out since they won't have CL, while Pep will be in both with City.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by titosantill on Fri May 27, 2016 12:45 pm

they'll go all out in the market...at least pep and mourinho will, when you sign those two, its a no brainer that you will spend a heap load of cash, its been their m.o. konte and  klopp, i don't know too much of his transfer policy, but i bet chelsea understand that they too will need to spend. obviously klopp signed guys at bvb but they were not big names nor huge transfers. however with the way he saw his top talents sold to bigger european clubs, and pep/bayern (conviniently for themselves) bought his two best players, he'll be hoping for more support at pool. but he'll need to put on his scouting cap cos i don't think they have city, chelsea nor utd money....let's just hope he doesn't develop some talent and sell them to pep/city, utd et al all over again
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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by futbol on Fri May 27, 2016 1:12 pm

People talk about cash as if there is infinite amount of worthy talent on the market that you could buy. The elite players which make the difference are already horded at Madrid/Bayern/Barca and unmoveable. Then there are a handful of elite players like Reus, Griezmann, Pogba which are almost unmoveable if not for crazy cash. And after that there is hardly anything exciting to build a truly great team, maybe one or two talents like Martial if you are lucky.

I look at it from a Barca perspective. I'd like to replace Alba, find an Alves replacement, a Mascherano replacement and find a successor for ageing Iniesta. I can't come up with any available elite leftbacks, rightbacks or centerbacks (at best there is Mustafi). And to replace Iniesta there is just Pogba or an injury-riddled Gündogan. So when people say "Pep will spend", "Mourinho will spend" - which great players are they exactly going to buy which will make the big difference? 35 year old DMbrahimovic? Laughing

Also both Pep and Mourinho suck in the transfer market. Mourinho selling de Bruyne, Lukaku, not utilizing Filipe Luis, buying Pedro, buying Falcao, trying to build around Oscar. rofl Pep the same, even though the Bayern board had him on a leash.

Leicester will defend their title IMO.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by sportsczy on Fri May 27, 2016 1:13 pm

@LeBéninois wrote:City has more money and a great manager . For the next 5 years they ay have the brightest future but Man U is going to come back. They went through a harsh path but they were still competing somehow. i respect that.

Btw Ligue 1 is going to get so weak . West ham has more money than anyone in their league bar PSG ...

Not more than OM. We have an annual budget of 100 mil. Problem is, we squander it all lol. The club is up for sale and with any half decent owner... we should be fine.

Lyon with that new stadium isn't going to be a seller unless it's for silly money either.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by sportsczy on Fri May 27, 2016 1:19 pm

There's more than that futbol... just not well known to the casual fan.

For example, Thomas Lemar, Rabiot, Koziello and Bakayoko are all very talented midfielders but still extremely young and mostly green.  Bakayoko has struggled with injury the past 2 seasons... but Arsenal fans should remember him well from CL.

You also have Umtiti, Raphael Guerreiro, etc.  In fact, Barca are trying HARD to sign Guerreiro from Lorient (leftback)...  but he may go to Liverpool because he would play more.  

Just need to look.  I think the top clubs bar Bayern, Atleti and Juve are very lazy in the their scouting.

You're not going to see a lot of these guys because they're not on TV like they would be if they were in EPL or La Liga.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by titosantill on Fri May 27, 2016 5:44 pm

there are good players out there. they may not be high profile, they may not be elite, but will work well in a league where you don't have to win 94 percent of your games to win the league. two, guys like mourinho and guardiola will be looking for squad depth, they'll have an 11, but they'll like to have back ups for every position. as pointed out, they're obviously not going for the cristianos, neymars, lewas of this world. but you don't need those names to win the epl....yet. when a draw starts becoming like a loss, coupled with ucl football then they'll need that elite level talent.
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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by S on Fri May 27, 2016 11:53 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Oh you guys will see next year... Klopp just got there, Pep is coming and Mourinho will get Man U organized.  EPL will start getting some very good results in Europe once the squads get into shape to the liking of these managers.  Next year's CL will only be about City since Arsenal, Spurs and Leicester aren't at the top level.  But i bet you both Man U and Liverpool get into CL the year after and then you'll see some real fireworks.

Just the amount of money that every club can spend is astounding.  For example, West Ham offered 40 mil euros for Lacazette and 25 mil for Mandanda.  Every single good player in Ligue 1 is getting big offers from EPL clubs regardless of their table ranking.  No other league has clubs that can do that.


People have been saying this since years though.Even when the last TV deal was negotiated.

Once mid-table and bottom mid-table teams started stacking up more money,that coincided with EPL's struggle in Europe.

Even the great Mourinho went out of the R16 2 yrs in  a row(albeit he was sacked much earlier) and made a semi where he was embarrassed by Atleti at home.

We are assuming things too much just because PL teams have financial resources.But if they just focus on buying players just to appease fans rather than laying down a foundation or a philosophy where clubs go on to benefit for years,i think they'll continue to struggle in Europe.Of course you're going to get that odd exception here and there.
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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by Adit on Sat May 28, 2016 12:27 am

It is the other way around. The odd exceptions are going to be some teams fking up despite having huge finances.

EPL is going to increase its TV deal 71% next season. That means Arsenal,city,manu etc are going to earn 200 mill euro in TV rights alone while relegation fodders will earn 130 mill euro plus..EPl has already well advanced in talent retention and accumulation. They are going to suck all the talent out of all other leagues. All good and semi decent players from other leagues are going to end up on pl no doubt.

Serie A went serie zzz after foreign teams were able to outspend Italians for the best players.. Same thing is going to happen in larger scale. Relegation teams will be easily able to attract best players of 5th 6th best teams in other leagues.

EPL is going to monopolize football like NBA is with basketball. I cannot see any other leagues surviving in long run, may be one more league on the application of economics.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by S on Sat May 28, 2016 12:35 am

Monopolize football ? Exaggeration at its best.There are just too many top clubs outside England for that to happen.Only way it could be a possibility is PL overtakes the CL brand(doubtful) but creation of a  European superleague will more than compensate for it.European glory is still the ultimate prize for any footballer.

Landscape of basketball is more comparable to cricket.Cant see that happening in football.
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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by Adit on Sat May 28, 2016 12:49 am

CL only gives revenue to 4 teams . How is that going to help all other 14 teams?

European super league? Lol creation of that will be nothing but admitting that our league has failed to compete and can't go forward. Why would you create super league if you can compete in current set up? Logic please.

Even with super leagues only top teams survives, all others will be dead.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Sat May 28, 2016 12:50 am

You can't compare two different sports anyway, it just doesn't work on any level.


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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by S on Sat May 28, 2016 1:04 am

I dint talk about leagues as a whole.

I am debating the point about EPL becoming NBA and i say it wont happen.Football doesnt need England or its league to be popular as much as basketball needs USA for example.Its two different things.

Besides with the amount of money lying around in PL,you also got to take note of the revenue selling teams from abroad will rake in.What this will do is they will have to work harder and rely more on scouting to create competitive teams,improve grassroots(youth) football to churn out more talents etc.

Its totally lolworthy to think EPL money will conquer more than a century worth footballing cultures of huge footballing nations(with giant institutions) like Germany,Italy,Spain.NBA of football ? Please....


Last edited by S on Sat May 28, 2016 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by futbol on Sat May 28, 2016 1:07 am

lol Nothing will change except prices will inflate. If you have money, you have to pay money. Let's say Southampton come asking for Bailly from Villarreal, why would Villarreal not ask for € 50M upwards, knowing the financial situation of their negotiation partners? With € 50M a club like Villarreal can then go on and buy half a dozen promising talents while EPL clubs continue to waste money. Why would Atletico accept any less than € 150M for Griezmann etc.?

All the EPL deal will lead to is that Premier League players will cost an arm and a leg. Average talents like Stones will go for € 100M etc. Inflation, nothing else. While foreign clubs will also bleed EPL clubs dry if they come asking for players.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by S on Sat May 28, 2016 1:11 am

@futbol wrote:lol Nothing will change except prices will inflate. If you have money, you have to pay money. Let's say Southampton come asking for Bailly from Villarreal, why would Villarreal not ask for € 50M upwards, knowing the financial situation of their negotiation partners? With € 50M a club like Villarreal can then go on and buy half a dozen promising talents while EPL clubs continue to waste money. Why would Atletico accept any less than € 150M for Griezmann etc.?

All the EPL deal will lead to is that Premier League players will cost an arm and a leg. Average talents like Stones will go for € 100M etc. Inflation, nothing else. While foreign clubs will also bleed EPL clubs dry if they come asking for players.


Exactly.

Teams from other leagues just have to be more smarter while EPL teams will get more lazy and just blow money on overhyped players because they can.
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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by Adit on Sat May 28, 2016 1:42 am

You need to take league as a whole. Juventus,napoli and Roma doesn't make a league.. Italian league is competing with epl not the top three teams.

If other leagues are trying to make a super league then what further proof than that needed that epl is a huge threat to them and those leagues have failed? Explain please.

Money matters... What happened to serie a teams? Did their rich history save them? Did the grass root football in Ligue 1 made it anything other than feeder league to pl? All the half decent players ends up in pl.

If Atletico sell Griezzmann for 150 mill then they will have to replace him with some other equally talented player who will also be overpriced due to epl clubs bidding for him.

They can only attract youngsters or players who haven't proven anything while the epl players will be able to buy the players on prime... This cycle repeats.

Oh and top players are not in abundance... These you get top money from pl la la la... Of no use when so the top players are already in pl.. You can't price anyone from pl. Once a player went to pl he can't even return to other leagues because of fee and wage problems.

Look at mata.. he will have to take a huge pay cut to move to any other leagues.. And let's not act as if Roma,Napoli,Atleti,valencia,villarreal etc will not take mata... They would love to... Yet his wages means they can't..

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by Valkyrja on Sat May 28, 2016 1:43 am

Can see Mata going back to Valencia this summer tbh.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Sat May 28, 2016 1:46 am

None of that will actually happen outside of a few exceptions.

What's the biggest price a mid table side has paid for a player outside of England? like 15-20m probably Laughing

It's easy to ask for 50m when you are a massive club but when you are Villarreal? not so much.

As much money as there is in England it's still the same clubs paying the 30-50m transfers that there was before....

The clubs that had no money before don't go up that far, sure overall they spend more than their Italian, Spanish and German counterparts but they spend anywhere near the amount you are expecting on one player.

You'll be lucky if you see 25m offers for Villarreal players from mid table PL teams for example.



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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by Adit on Sat May 28, 2016 2:03 am

And we didn't even discuss about wages.

When epl relegation fodders can offer better wages than Roma and Villarreal do you think players won't leave? Laughing

This effect will be seen through out as pl clubs can offer massive wages in the future.

Also , why is Agnelli and Ruminigge crying for European super league if everything is fine? Why is bartrollmeu and Javier Tebas saying "EPL is the biggest rival" if everything is fine as it is?

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by S on Sat May 28, 2016 2:03 am

@Adit wrote:You need to take league as a whole. Juventus,napoli and Roma doesn't make a league.. Italian league is competing with epl not the top three teams.

Agreed.

If other leagues are trying to make a super league then what further proof than that needed that epl is a huge threat to them and those leagues have failed? Explain please.

Of course its a huge threat.Who denied otherwise ? Super league is mooted mainly by top clubs of other leagues because they could fall way behind in revenue not by footballing associations of their respective countries who will obviously be opposed to the idea.

Money matters... What happened to serie a teams? Did their rich history save them? Did the grass root football in Ligue 1 made it anything other than feeder league to pl? All the half decent players ends up in pl.
What happened to Serie A teams ? I'll tell you what happened.They never focused on sustainable growth.They used football clubs as a passionate hobby where they can spend all their wealth on.The scenario is pretty similar to some of the EPL owners except that they have a sustainable future going forward.

As for Ligue 1,they've been a selling league from the outset.French players themselves prefer trying an experience abroad than staying in the league.Cant say the same for German,Italian or even Spanish players to some extent.

If Atletico sell Griezzmann for 150 mill then they will have to replace him with some other equally talented player who will also be overpriced due to epl clubs bidding for him.

They can only attract youngsters or players who haven't proven anything while the epl players will be able to buy the players on prime... This cycle repeats.

Atletico have been a selling club for years though but are still competing at a high level.Ofcourse they wont get an equally talented player,but if they're smart enough(which they have been),they would use the money to make their overall team stronger.
Smart and prudent management is more crucial to a club's fortunes imo.

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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by S on Sat May 28, 2016 2:08 am

@Adit wrote:And we didn't even discuss about wages.

When epl relegation fodders can offer better wages than Roma and Villarreal do you think players won't leave? Laughing

This effect will be seen through out as pl clubs can offer massive wages in the future.

Also , why is Agnelli and Ruminigge crying for European super league if everything is fine? Why is bartrollmeu and Javier Tebas saying "EPL is the biggest rival" if everything is fine as it is?


They key to combating that atleast in Juventus' case is having more homegrown talent.
Italy need to produce better homegrown talent otherwise they'll fall even further.
Its not all about money.Ambition holds key for a footballer too.

We've already seen plenty of flops in the PL who dont even like living in England or their cultures dont match the English culture and are just playing for an EPL club purely for money.
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Re: Manchester United Vs Manchester City : Who has the brighter future ?

Post by Adit on Sat May 28, 2016 2:18 am

French players prefers to play abroad because that is where money is...PSG can attract them only then.

Best Spanish players who are not needed by Barca or real already plays outside Spain. Spanish clubs can't hold onto them.

Same with Germany, the best talents who Bayern Munich don't want will end up in pl.

Best Italian prospect is already playing outside Italy mainly because of wages and all.

I don't think there is any cultural trends, they just follows money and when top clubs in your home country can't offer you that then you jumps ship to pl.

Your last sentence is spot on. Do you believe Aguero saying he likes playing in that BPL? He only stays there for the money and in the end Atletico still hasn't got a better player than Aguero after he left...

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