Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Luca on Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:54 pm

@Cruijf wrote:Before and during the tournament multiple people were criticizing Conte for not playing Insigne. This is by no means hindsight, we've been saying this from the start.

And you're the first person I've seen disagree. What exactly makes Eder and Pelle so good? They certainly performed over their talent level so I guess you can give credit to Conte for getting the best out of them, but Insigne was far better than both whenever he came on. That SES only got 10 minutes all tournament is criminal.


To be clear, I wanted Insigne to start as well. He's our best forward by quite some distance.

What I'm saying is, I'm understanding why Conte went with Eder-Pelle and I don't think the decision cost the team anything in the end. In the end, Italy took Germany to penalties and lost. Eder and Pelle played well in each and every single game and had decisive moments in the tournament.

As for SES, his position was deemed as a WB in Conte's system and in Conte's system, as a WB I don't think he ever really had a chance because he does not do enough defensively. MDS won the position from Darmian on the left and kept it during the tournament and was excellent.

With this group, it clearly wasn't about starting the most talented player in a player for player type way. It was about a system that would work for how Conte wanted to play and he executed it as well as he could have for his own perspective of playing. Is he perfect? Far from it. Did he do well? Absolutely. At the end of the day, Conte chose a team and accepted the criticism with his selections long before the tournament began. He was then applauded for his efforts. I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt, even after the defeat, because he proved us wrong at every turn and was not far off from defeating Germany either (who were very much the better team).

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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by dostoevsky on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:08 am

Pelle was absurdly awful against Sweden to be honest Luca but otherwise he fulfilled the role required of him by Conte. I did think it odd that he didn't bring a forward like Okaka as his reserve as neither Zaza nor Immobile can function in the same way, which seems rather necessary given our approach, but there's no point crying over spilt milk.

Conte had a very rigid approach, which obviously has both its strengths and weaknesses. I do believe that Insigne could function in his system still and feel he could have been introduced from the bench much earlier in certain situations but Eder was generally excellent in his role.

El Shaarawy and Bernadeschi, whilst exciting players, simply had no space in his approach. Nominally bringing along such attacking wingback options felt like an utter waste by the end when Conte showed such a complete aversion to taking this risk and no willingness to switch to a 4-4-2. Would have been better served taking Zappacosta to service both flanks and adding another midfield anchor but such speculation is meaningless now.
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Luca on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:21 am

Eh, the whole team was pretty bad against Sweden.

Against Belgium and Spain, Eder and Pelle were excellent. Against Germany you could clearly see they were outmatched but their effort never was. I actually thought Pelle should've been subbed off against Germany because his legs were finished after about 80 minutes, and lets not speak of the penalty.

Insigne could definitely function in Conte's system, he just was not preferred to either Eder or Pelle, who did have some great chemistry at times.

I think a player like Jorginho would have been a nice addition over Sturaro or Thiago Motta. He was one of the very best midfielders in Italy over the season and a Giaccherini-Jorginho-Parolo midfield sounds better than Giaccherini-Sturaro-Parolo, although neither come close to Germany's quality so it's a long shot at best.

With Conte's approach, the battle is very much lost or won in the midfield. Unfortunately this was also the position most decimated by injuries. Verratti and Marchisio not making the tournament and De Rossi not being fit for Germany are all incredibly tough absences to overcome.

I'm not saying I agree with Conte's approach, selections or anything like that. There's room for criticism for a reason but he really ignited the group he chose and put in many passionate displays, for which I am proud.

But we've strayed from the point slightly (although maybe it's all blended into a bigger discussion now), one can definitely see the rationale behind starting Eder-Pelle and I don't see the forward group as either the reason we lost or something that was necessarily bad. Conte was always going to do this his way and take whatever criticism came with it, I believe he overcame a lot of that and there's nothing wrong with saying that Eder and Pelle played a good tournament, all things considered.

I hope Ventura considers players that Conte did not in his approach. I would like to see Insigne, Berardi, Gabbiadini among others.
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by dostoevsky on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:32 am

My issue with Pelle's performance against Sweden wasn't simply the technical mistakes he made but his attitude. He lost his head and ended up becoming a liability. He certainly shouldn't be held to account for one poor game in an otherwise admirable tournament though.

I will never quite come to terms with the fact that Conte did not bring Jorginho along. Laughing The injuries to Marchisio and Verratti could not be helped but that selection is my greatest regret.

I think that such a renewal of the squad will be almost forced upon Ventura. We brought an incredibly old squad and there will inevitably be retirements. Some of our veterans may want to continue regardless however and here I hope Ventura does not become nostalgic or emotional. They did well and put in a heroic effort but now it's time for to let the likes of Rugani, Insigne and others prove throughout qualifying that they can achieve something in Russia. Gabbiadini as well though I'm confident Conte would have taken him if he'd been a regular starter this season rather than him not trusting his ability.
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Luca on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:45 am

Well, Pelle is a good player but not a great one in my honest opinion so these moments are expected. He also missed a couple chances against Spain that stand out poorly.

I'm excited. I hope Ventura abandons the 3-5-2 because I'm tired of seeing it ffs Laughing

But players I'd like to see more of:
Insigne, Berardi, Rugani, Romagnoli

I'd like to see something like:

Insigne-???-Berardi
Verratti-Marchisio-Florenzi
MDS-Chiellini-Bonucci-Darmian
God

But that's my dream FIFA formation, can't really decide on a striker. The pool is quite average and all of the names available are roughly at the same level so it could be anyone's position. I'd like to imagine there's someone out there who will be that player one day. Maybe Lapadula puts together a couple great years at Milan at earns it.

Just my day dream
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:46 am

@elfmeter wrote:
@juvealbanian wrote:P.S i really liked Conte not bothered to even play Insigne and SES or even Zaza.
He is saving the mass destruction weapons for more serious opponents.

Can't wait to see Zaza destroying some overrated team like he did with Napoli....Zazaaaa remember this name folks Wink


Dont worry, people will remember Zaza.


What an entrance rofl

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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by breva on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:48 am

I may be wrong, but I have little faith in Ventura as the Commissario Tecnico (National Team Manager). Donadoni would have been a better pick. Donadoni lost to Spain on penalties without Pirlo and Gattuso, the heart of our midfield in 2008.

For once I would like to see Italy in an important match in a Euro or WC with all its players and more rest time than the opposition. It has never happened.
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:49 am

There's no reason for Pelle to play in a 1 striker system with Gabbiadini available. Conte should've trusted that Serie A bench experience > EPL. Finding spaces in the most tactical league in the world is significantly harder than strikes swimming in pool-loads of space in England.

Anyways, now that it's Ventura's turn I can't wait to see Immobile - Cerci again. Italy's dark days are over.

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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by dostoevsky on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:07 am

Pelle certainly didn't surprise me but I can excuse misses even from a great player, let alone a decent one. These things happen, it's up to the team to keep creating chances. Bickering with the referee, giving away cheap fouls and risking expulsion however has nothing to do with quality, it just needlessly burdens your team. It was a one-off however.

I suspect that Ventura will persist with the 3-5-2 but I'd like to see us explore a 4-3-3 or even a 4-4-2 if we find that no single striker has the qualities we require.

I expect to see something like this initially:

Gigi
Rugani---Bonucci---Chiellini
Darmian---Florenzi---Marchisio---Verratti---De Sciglio
Berardi---Belotti (Laughing)

I'd personally mirror your formation though, with Jorginho perhaps over Florenzi. Ideally it would be great to have Florenzi as a box to box option to inject some much needed pace into the middle but I think we saw the ill effects of him not playing in that position regularly for his club during this tournament. Much will depend on how Spaletti uses him in the coming season.

Ideally I'd like to see Ventura make regular call ups of Jorginho, Rugani, Romagnoli, Donnarumma, Saponara, Bernadeschi and Berardi. Soriano might also be included in that list.

There's also the possibility of Ventura tapping up Peres. Proud
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:09 am

Sad days when Italy needs to tap up Brazil for FBs, one of its historical strengths

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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by dostoevsky on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:13 am

To be honest, I don't think we particularly need him. Our current fullback options are capable enough and hopefully one of Conti or Calabria can take a step up in the next two years. It's always nice to have options though. Not convinced he's an international level defender but having someone so quick to call upon isn't a bad option, particularly if we're struck by an injury to a starter.

If we move away from a three man backline though then I'd no longer be interested at all.
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Luca on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:30 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Sad days when Italy needs to tap up Brazil for FBs, one of its historical strengths


It's actually one of our deeper positions right now but that also depends if you're talking full backs in a 4 man back line or wing backs in a 3-5-2, in a 3-5-2 were quite stacked and even in a 4 man were comfortable.

The question marks are more over the attack and also on the formation that's best.

Sick and tired of this damn 3-5-2
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by dostoevsky on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:38 am

While our best defenders continue to play week in, week out in a 3-5-2 at club level, I suspect we'll continue to see it on the international stage.

Moral of the story: Juventus should ditch 3-5-2 and sell us Rugani.
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Luca on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:42 am

@dostoevsky wrote:While our best defenders continue to play week in, week out in a 3-5-2 at club level, I suspect we'll continue to see it on the international stage.

Moral of the story: Juventus should ditch 3-5-2 and sell us Rugani.


Or keep Rugani and ditch the 3-5-2? hmm
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Kaladin on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:43 am

Keep 3-5-2 and ditch Rugani hmm

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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Luca on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:47 am

ES wrote:Keep 3-5-2 and ditch Rugani hmm


Could actually happen Laughing
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by dostoevsky on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:49 am

After which, Luca will ditch Juventus and follow Rugani? hmm

Montella likes 3-5-2. Proud
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Luca on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:53 am

@dostoevsky wrote:After which, Luca will ditch Juventus and follow Rugani? hmm

Montella likes 3-5-2. Proud


I can't even joke about ditching Juventus. Once you've lived through the Amauri era, you're here for good.

Milan is currently in their own Amauri era, but I see a brighter future. I think Montella does well.
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Kaladin on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:55 am

Amauri era Laughing

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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Luca on Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:01 am

ES wrote:Amauri era Laughing


A time of darkness and despair is not a laughing matter ES

The great Grygera depression swept over us all at one point or another
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by dostoevsky on Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:06 am

The Grygera depression rofl rofl rofl

Nothing quite compares though to the Age of Bakaye pale
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Luca on Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:10 am

A moment of silence for DM Milan Proud
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Cruijf on Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:55 am

Dost what are your thoughts on playing the 3-5-2 with Italy? I of course understand the desire for greater defensive solidity to make up for a very poor midfield and attack, but I couldn't help but think switching to a back four would've helped in many situations, even just temporarily, such as in the first 15 minutes to grab an early goal.

I didn't watch the Spain game but in every other game Italy was beyond frustrating with the ball. When you refuse to play through the middle (understandably with the personelle), but play a formation with only one wide player on each flank, it's extremely difficult to do anything with in possession. It was painfully predictable what Italy would do whenever they got the ball. It would be played into the wingback, who would either play it back to the CB if he was under pressure, or turn and play a long ball towards the strikers. Both of which would 9/10 times not advance the play and just return Italy to square one.

Had Italy played something like 4-3-3 with players like Insigne, SES, or Berardi on the flanks, they would've been much more dangerous on the counter with the pace and greater wide passing options that they offer.

That is my biggest gripe with Conte. He was unlucky to go into the tournament without his 3 best midfielders but I felt he was unnecessarily hindering Italy's play with his stubborn defensiveness. They could have just as easily sat back and bypassed the midfield in their counter attacks with a 4-3-3.

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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by rincon on Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:31 am

Top debate guys Thumbs up except for the reminders of Amauri and Grygera times Sad jesus christ that was a bad Juve.

@Crujif good points about just countering with a 4-3-3, it may have worked, but in the end you sacrifice too many (or all?) of Italy's strengths playing like that. Added to it that Conte doesn't like sitting deep and countering.

The squad's best areas are CB and FB/WB, the mid was hit too hard with injuries so a 4-3-3 would be 100% parking the bus and countering since the current midfield trio wouldnt be able to control the game vs Spain and Germany. If Candreva was fit then the 4-3-3 could make sense, but relying on Insigne and Bernardeschi to defend wouldn't work too well. At that point I think it would be better to play a 4-4-2 Atletico Madrid style. Something like:

Insigne Pelle

Giaccherini Sturaro Parolo Florenzi

De Sciglio Chiellini Bonucci Darmian

Replace De Rossi with Sturaro and Candreva with Florenzi when they weren't injured. So in attack it would like the 4-3-3

Insigne Pelle Florenzi

Giaccherini Sturaro Parolo

De Sciglio Chiellini Bonucci Darmian

But is it worth to sacrifice Barzagli to play Darmian? It can be Bernardeschi for more skill, but we'd get exposed too much with him and Insigne if we are sitting deep IMO. The 3-5-2 made the most sense. The Juve backline is made, and even De Rossi and Giaccherini are very familiar with it. It wasnt the most exciting bet, but I think it was the best and safest bet. Remeber the original plan was a more attacking 3-4-3 before Marchisio and Verratti got injured, Conte spoke (and tried) of lining up something like:

Insigne Pelle Candreva

De Sciglio Marchisio Verratti Darmian

Chiellini Bonucci Barzagli

The squad actually looks good and has great options for such a system but then injuries hit. The back 3 was our guarantee, I wouldn't abandon it so easily at this tournament.
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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Kaladin on Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:29 pm

@Luca wrote:
ES wrote:Amauri era Laughing


A time of darkness and despair is not a laughing matter ES

The great Grygera depression swept over us all at one point or another


Grygera depression rofl rofl rofl

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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

Post by Andrew on Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:44 pm

@Luca wrote:
@dostoevsky wrote:After which, Luca will ditch Juventus and follow Rugani? hmm

Montella likes 3-5-2. Proud


Once you've lived through the Amauri era, you're here for good.


The players we had back then ffs rofl

Molinaro Proud

and to think that now we're arguing if Evra should start over Alex Sandro rofl

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Re: Congratulations to Italy on Winning Euro 2016

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