A swinger to hold the BBC

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A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:24 am

I have long thought that we need "better" help forward with BBC. Why? There are multiple reasons:
-433 is a wing heavy formation that requires quality outwide, and the more fast wingers we have the better.
-BBC is often injured and rarely play together meaning that those are positions that need quality cover
-We have long seasons where we compete for almost everything so again, quality subs are needed
-the drop off in quality between Ronaldo and Bale, and then the two other actual wingers we have. Jese is simply not up to standard, and while Vasquez was much better overall this season, i think we can still find a better player out there, maybe not as good as our starters but that can massively impact big games, whether in europe or in la liga. I expect Jese to move on, so that woud leave Vasquez, and someone that needs to be better.
-We are facing a ban that could stop us from signing anyone in the next two transfer windows
-all that list of other kids like Asensio, Odegaard, etc... are not even close to ready, so they should all be loaned as far as im concerned.

Those being my arguments, there is a list of other players that could do that job:
- Ben Arfa: The new version of Ben Arfa is pretty damn good. excellent 1v1, one of the best dribblers in europe. Essentially a one man attack on his day. would be super cheap at the moment as well
-Payet: Flavour of the month, great set piece taker, not really a winger, but had to throw him in there. would cost a lot though.
-Perisic: Personally i think he is the best winger i have seen in the euros so far, i did not think he was that good. But he looks fast, defends, plays left and right. Dont think he would cost a lot
-Draxler: was very good in the CL, still a bit young, but would be expensive.
-Ribery? Laughing we tried to sign him once
-Hulk
-Gaitan: Atletico already snatched him, they have the right ideas
-Brahimi: interesting winger, very vry good in 1v1, not the some efficient player but could contribute.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Valkyrja on Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:42 am

I'm okay with Jese and Lucas. Ronaldo plays 90% of the games and doesn't need a specific backup. Jese and Lucas are reliable

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by phenom on Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:50 am

I would give asensio a chance assuming jese goes out

Ronaldo will rest more from the coming season

Would love to have nolito though...
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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Nivash on Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:00 am

For all the good things being said about him, I'm a bit reluctant about Ben Arfa. Feels reminiscent of Cassano in the sense that his environment is a big determinant of how he performs, and Madrid is hardly the environment for someone dependent on such.

If this quote is anything to go by:

"There are people here who trust me, who do not judge me as some people want to judge me through the press," - http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/30689370

Madrid is definitely not the place for him

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Adit on Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:14 am

The problem is convincing these people to come sit here on the bench. Now lot of teams have money, why sit on bench when they can start for those clubs and earn similar money? ..

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:09 pm

For the same reasons that a player like Arda Turan went to Barca in the first place, or that very good players have joined big clubs knowing that even though they woulnt start they would have important roles off the bench and would start quite a number of games.

I just dont find it normal to go from two of the 5 best wingers in europe, to kids who are still wet behind the ears. It's the kind of quality drop that can ruin your year late if you are playing an important game and someone is missing. Quality on the wings can't be understated

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by futbol_bill on Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:19 pm

Jese is definitely going on loan. We have Lucas and Morata. There is definitely room for another.

I agree with Nick, for all the reasons he gave. The issue I believe is getting someone good enough, I don't really care about cost (after all it's not our money), but finding someone good enough who will be content with being a reserve / backup.

Knowing this club, they will likely keep Asensio for that role and I feel that it is just wrong (having a talent stun his development by riding the bench). On one hand, club is saying they need to send Jese, Kova and maybe Nacho to play more and continue developing and then we hear they may bring in an unfinished talent to replace him??

The other option, assuming they don't get offers for James, is keep him on squad for that role.
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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Valkyrja on Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:19 pm

rather have guys like lucas and jese who i know that will always give 100% no matter what than 30 y.o. footballers who have no link to the club and also a history of attitude problems.

Arda Turan is a bad example tbh. the guy is out of his range in that Barca team and many fans want him sold this summer to make space for their homegrown players. Lucas and Jese played CL semifinals/finals and did good.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:36 pm

Arda is just an example of a mature player that decided to join one of the biggest club in europe to garnish is remaining years. Whether he is liked by the fans or succeeding for them or not after is irrelevant to my argument.

what is this fantasy that only cantera players can play hard for the club? where is this coming from. At the end of the day i want good players around, and i don think those two are up to standard.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by futbol_bill on Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:13 pm

I think the club agrees with you Nick, at least I hope so. This move to loan out players speaks to that agreement. Today there is an article out that the club says Kroos is untouchable even if Pogba comes. That tells me that they plan to have a bench full of experience, capable of challenging the starters and capable of starting elsewhere. You already have Casemiro and Isco (possible James), Pepe or Varane, Danilo, even Casilla in this category. I can see them getting the winger you suggest as well as another CM besides Pogba and a left lateral. Not really beyond possibilities for this summer and that together with the talent on loans is sufficient to withstand any signing ban.

It used to be if Flo signed a galactico, someone on club had to go, but it sure sounds like that is not the case anymore.

As to the desire for canteras, it is already proven (in the cases, of Carvajal, Lucas, Kiko, Casemiro, now Morata, previously with Arbeloa) and now being stated very openly by club that players develop better with clubs that offer them playing time than riding the bench on 1st team. It's not that we don't have talented canteras, it just too big a jump from 3rd level futbol to one of the biggest clubs in the world.
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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by sportsczy on Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:33 pm

The width comes from the fullbacks or form the CMs going on wide runs... not both obviously.

Wingers have nothing to do with it. The "typical" 433 setup has one of the forwards as a playmaker, one as a CF and one as a SS. If one of them was a winger, it's more of a 442. In any case, 2 are supposed to attack the box while 1 is supposed to help create on each play.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:08 pm

The cantera desire is just bloated bullshit, excuse my french. Carvajal is a good player that's why he is succeeding, Casemiro is a good player, that's why he is succeedong and he is not cantera lol. Morata who is a supposed cantera is also a good player and has never even said that he wants to come back to madrid lmao.

It's fan fiction imo, you will succeed if you are good. People dont get better all of a sudden because they have been at the club most of their lives.

@Sports, wingers have nothing to do with width up front? good lord. There is no such thing as a "typical" 433, it's your own conception you are describing, so please dont try to pass it up as an universal truth. Different managers have different conception and approach to formation, and do with the players they have available.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Valkyrja on Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:23 pm

your judgement is simiilar now as it was with Danilo's transfer last year nick, and look how it turned out. iirc you were 1 of the few who expected that scrub to challenge dani

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by halamadrid2 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:33 pm

I agree with the guys who prefer canteranos. They give that little bit extra for the Club because they came through the system. When Morata comes compare his running and chasing the ball to Benzema. Compare Lucas to James for example. Nacho to Varane. I am done with buying players when we have perfectly capable players in our youth team. For example everyonw are raving about that Leverkusen player but what about Llorente?? He is perfectly capable of carrying on the job if we loan out Kovacic.
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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:42 pm

@Valk, I expected Danilo to be a lot better, that's true. But i never look at it from a perspective where one is a cantera and the other is a foreigner. I just look at what each player brings in strength and weaknesses.

@Halamadrid, Morata ran and work hard for juventus. Does that mean he was a juventus youth product? What about Guti? the laziest midfielder i have ever seen? was he not our cantera?

which leverkusen player? Kramer? loool

If we had cantera players who had genius level talent and abilities i would be pushing for them as well. But to me you guys are pushing for average players who were in 3rd division last season and were pathetic in their attempt to go up to 2nd division, to come in the team to play valuable minutes. To that i say no, they need to go on loan to prove themselves like Carvajal, like Casemiro, like Morata even, and then we can talk about them.

But i put up a list of quality wingers up there and there is 0 cantera who is even close to one of those guys.

We need better standard from our bench, not just kids from the youth team because we need to develop some misplaced promotion system.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by futbol_bill on Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:53 pm

I don't get Val, Hala, DoC. They all were very critical all last season, and yet it seems they are against any changes to this previously acknowleded flawed squad other than promoting under developed canteras.

Their arguments seems to be this squad won the CL and came close on liga, so it is good enough and doesn't need changes.
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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Valkyrja on Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:56 pm

@futbol_bill wrote:I don't get Val, Hala, DoC. They all were very critical all last season, and yet it seems they are against any changes to this previously acknowleded flawed squad other than promoting under developed canteras.

Their arguments seems to be this squad won the CL and came close on liga, so it is good enough and doesn't need changes.


I've already said that we must upgrade on casemiro and benzema. the former is good but we can do better, and you all know my opinion on karim. but imo there is no need to improve on lucas and jese. considering that they will most likely backup bale when he's unavailable since cristiano plays 90% of the games.

why should we buy an unreliable player like ben arfa or a scrub like perisic who's spending his prime in obscurity ? can't believe that perisic is better than lucas or jese.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by FennecFox7 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:13 pm

This is stupid nick. No, there is a difference between a player like Lucas who doesn't have it all going for him but busts his ass, compared to James, who clearly doesn't give a shit about working hard (until recently). Heart is the reason we won what we did last season, not "talent" like you want to put it. Not everything is based upon a fifa rating.

All the canteros you mentioned made it with hard work. Lucas was very good last season and we need someone to replace him? Lol. Don't try to rewrite the da vinci code, fact is Lucas is more then good enough to challenge for a starting spot, some of us were even saying he should get some starts over bale.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:19 pm

Lucas challenging for starting spot? Loooool ok

Please dont make it sound like i said i dont value hard work, i never said that, if i did pls quote me.

I argument in this thread is that we would benefit from having another wide player off the bench, one in between Vasquez and Bale/CR. Its not a crazy proposition specially that Jese is not what he uaed to be.  I did not say Vasquez needa to be replaced i said there are better players out there we can sign

I listed fuys i think are better than vasquez and jese. Its ok to disagree with my choices, but if you disagree that there are better players than vasquez but not as good as Bale for ex, you are essentially saying that Vasquez is some kind of next level prodigy.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by futbol_bill on Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:43 pm

You guys keep mentioning Jese! He will not be with the team next season, they are already negotiating loan deals plus Zidane said one of the reasons he wanted Morata to stay, was he can play all 3 forward positions and replace Jese on roster. We therefore only have 2 backup forwards, Lucas and Morata. That does leave a spot for another forward as Nick has suggested.
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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by sportsczy on Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:08 pm

Guys....  wingers are rare enough these days and they absolutely do not fit in a 433.  In a 442 and a 4231, sure.  But a 433?

It's not a 433 with Vasquez.  It's a 442.  Bale is a bit unique because he is great both wide and in the middle.  So he can switch up between being a winger and a striker and even a AM (unfortunately).  We do get some winger attributes out of the 433 with Bale just because of that.  But how many players that have Bale's profile exist?  I can't think of another.  Ribery and Robben are the clear ones as they evolved into far more than just wingers.  But they're old and past it now.  Who else fits the bill?

I don't have any problem playing a 442 btw with a winger instead of 3 strikers.  But let's make sure we know what we're talking about Laughing  We're not going to break up BBC so it's not even a realistic discussion though.

As far as width goes...  that's really up to the fullbacks and the midfielders supporting those fullbacks.  Modric/Carvajal/Bale are fantastic for width on their side.  Kroos/Marcelo/Ronaldo are horrible now that Ronaldo rarely goes wide.  So the upgrade would be either to Marcelo or Kroos or both... if you're looking to improve width. This is assuming Ronaldo is kept. If Ronaldo was sold... Reus would really fit the bill. He's one I just remembered. He is a guy who started wide and evolved into more of a striker later. He would be perfect. But he can't stay healthy.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by titosantill on Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:58 pm

i get both arguments. i'm opposed to a lucas upgrade for a couple of reasons; one, the guy had a reasonable showing late on when he was called upon, had a reasonably good season, better than our other back ups (i don't consider casemiro and carvajal back ups) he took our first pk, in a tight pressure situation and was calm...he's earned another shot.

two, cristiano's always fit, won't miss too many games, so we've got lucas as bale's back up, i trust bale will get one of his injuries again next season, i think lucas can manage...jese's been dissapointing

three, when a coach hints that his front 3 will always play if they're fit (i don't think zidane has come out to say this, but that's the perception we get), then its difficult to attract those other names that mr nick has mentioned. to be honest, i don't want players who are happy with the bench. i want players who want to fight for a place and compete with those starting or even force them out.....so no, i don't want an arda turan type


Last edited by titosantill on Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by titosantill on Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:58 pm

here's where i agree with mr nick, the perception that only cantera players are hardworking is without basis. there have been many who have passed through real madrid, and only few are worthy of the 'hardworking' tag. two, there must be a balance between hardwork and talent. three, guys like carvajal are doing well here because they are good and put in effort, not necessarily because they are cantera players. after all, carvajal and lucas did have loan stints which may have helped their development process

i don't want some scrub who can't cut it in the lower divisions start playing for us simply cos they grew up in madrid. we have had enough of those; pavon, mejia, minambres, jotha, miguel torres (who was a hard worker, but provided extremely little in terms of talent). if a cantera is really good and performing, promote. if he's okay to alright, loan him out, and asses his development....we are trying to win titles here not raise kids

but as far as the discussion of today, i think lucas has earned a shot at another season as the main back-up winger
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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by shadexticos on Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:18 pm

We don't need world class players on the bench
Lucas, Asensio, maybe a ben arfa and any other player who does not believe he will win balon d'or in 2 - 3 years time or ever.
We have an untouchable, completely untouchable front 3. No need for world class players on the bench.

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Re: A swinger to hold the BBC

Post by futbol_bill on Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:43 pm

I don't think Nick is saying replace or upgrade Lucas. I repeat Jese is not on this team next season. We have 3 forward positions, regardless of whether you call them striker, SS, winger or AM, and only have 2 backups, morata and Lucas. Simply put, we need a third regardless of what you want to call it. Ignoring the term wing, I believe Nick's point is we need an experienced Talent who will fight to be a starter, not some under developed home grown cantera. It's time you guys realized, as the club nows seems to have, that you can't make the jump from 3rd level futbol to a top 1st division team. Sitting on bench stuns your growth.
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