The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:05 pm

I believe him. He means it.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Eman on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:10 pm

He is going to sign players. We'll see who he signs and how much he spends, but he won't do nothing. Saying we'll 'spend what we have' indicates we might not actually have that much though...could be a transfer tactic of course.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:39 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:I believe him. He means it.


I agree, the problem is he's really stubborn in his evaluation of quality.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Raptorgunner on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:48 pm


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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Eman on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:16 pm

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20160818/wenger-on-mustafi-lacazette-transfers

Arsene's comments here will draw a lot of ire, but I've actually gained a lot of respect for him here.

See, what other clubs are doing in leagues that make less money than the EPL is ripping English teams off since if they don't, the EPL could buy every good player and become the best league in the world within years. By ripping the EPL off, foreign teams generate their own funds to buy several replacement players of similar quality for half the cost, and they don't become any worse off while the EPL does not improve at as rapid of a pace as it would like to (a team can sign 2 players in a summer vs 4, for example).

If English teams continue to pay the massive funds for players that aren't worth it, the league will have such high costs that it will be unsustainable in the long-run and many teams will fail. If the advertising money ever were to leave to another league, the EPL would crumble.

That said, while Arsene is taking this moral stance of not overpaying in order to protect this league's long-term sustainability and financial superiority, all of his rivals completely give into the pressure for success and spend whatever they need to in order to compete. The sad thing here is that Wenger is going to bat for the league rather than his club, and while it could pay dividends in the long-run if people see what he's doing and follow suit, a single manager taking this stance and 19 paying silly money will cause absolutely no change other than to make our club unsuccessful.

What he *wants* to do is win without spending huge sums so that clubs see what he's trying to do, understand why he's doing it, and follow his lead. However, if he fails, he will have ruined our club's chances of success for no reason at all. I truly hope that he does it for the good of us 1st of all but the EPL as well and can go down as a hero for it, and as I said I respect him more for having these values which I agree with; if nobody looks at the big picture Economics of what is happening then England will become a laughing stock...but I am very worried for us all the same.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Sri on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:40 pm

His values are all ok. We've been fully behind it for decades now. It's a part of our identity.

But at what cost?

Wenger brings many a thing which are worthy of respect and admiration. What he also brings is stubbornness in his ways and refusing to fix things which are clearly not working.
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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Raptorgunner on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:55 pm

No one is asking him to go crazy and compete with the rest of the league just fill the holes in the team. Its pathetic people fall for this guys tricks.

Why is Arsenal charging the highest ticket prices in the world than?

Its ok for Arsenal to rob the fans but its not ok to spend some money. :facepalm:

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by urbaNRoots on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:05 pm

English clubs pay more because they receive more, that money they receive has to be spent either on strengthening the squad or enabling lower ticket prices for fans. Most English clubs choose to strengthen the squad and Arsenal do neither.

These quotes are just more evidence that Arsène Wenger is not up to the task of managing a Premier League club. He's still stuck sometime in the '90s when he could find the best talent before everyone else for a cheap price. However nowadays he's way out of his depth compared to the younger managers.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by sportsczy on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:09 pm

That's not entirely accurate Urban. These are for-profit entities. They can take the money and put it in the owners' pockets, which is what's happening at Arsenal.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:11 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:I believe him. He means it.


I agree, the problem is he's really stubborn in his evaluation of quality.


Yep, exactly.
So stubborn that he's more and more in danger of missing the point completely.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Jay29 on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:11 pm

Arsene's comments here will draw a lot of ire, but I've actually gained a lot of respect for him here.

But what do we get out of taking some sort of moral high ground against stupid spending? The reality is that we're a part of this market and we either find a solution that works for us or we adapt like the other clubs are doing. Or maybe we do a combination of both. There's no rule that says you have to spend £100mil on a player and give him £300k p/w.

I'm all for being sensible and exercising caution when necessary. But he's being over-cautious here, talking about a reality that doesn't really exist and won't do for a long time if it ever does. If you don't make signings because you're scared they might flop and be hard to sell then why sign anybody at all? We might as well just use our academy players.

He really is bizarre at times, somehow stuck in the past yet also always thinking about the future. It's like present doesn't really exist for him.
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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Eman on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:19 pm

Raptorgunner wrote:No one is asking him to go crazy and compete with the rest of the league just fill the holes in the team. Its pathetic people fall for this guys tricks.

Why is Arsenal charging the highest ticket prices in the world than?

Its ok for Arsenal to rob the fans but its not ok to spend some money. :facepalm:
We literally have been asking him to compete with the rest of the league and go crazy. The language of Arsenal fans for the past 3 months has been to spend 60mil on Icardi (ridiculous), 45mil on Lacazette (the cash we spent 3 years ago on the universally-considered #1 AM in the world at that time), 75mil on Higuain (who went for 40mil 3 years ago). Wenger is refusing to engage in a bullshit market.

We are part of the market, we do need to spend, but people are being very selective in their memories right now about how we've done business in recent times. We got Monreal, Cech, Elneny, Holding for absolutely reasonable prices. We brought in Alexis for 32mil. We bought some of the brightest English talent for moderate fees (16mil for Welbz>50mil for Sterling). You CAN do it, and we're evidence of that. Other clubs are beating us in the market and winning titles, but then completely collapsing because they aren't laying foundations. Our team is better than it's been for a decade but is missing two more players, which is why we're so on edge because we're so painfully close.

I 100% agree that to finish the team off we need to spend. I want us to spend 100mil on a guy who can win the Ballon d'Or, it would be worth it. But if we do the exact same thing that everyone else does just because they do it, we're sacrificing the principles that make us different. If we did it, we'd do well and I think that we should one time to make the squad complete, but Wenger is getting 0 credit whatsoever for taking a stance that the entire league should be taking and trying to solve a problem that could cripple the league.

Once you start engaging in ridiculous transfer fees, you set a precedent that you are capable and willing to spend that type of cash. It becomes a slippery slope and clubs will expect more of us in every single deal. If you leave it to the last second, at least it looks like you only spent because you were desperate, which is probably why he does it even though it's infuriating every time.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Jay29 on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:32 pm

We literally have been asking him to compete with the rest of the league and go crazy. The language of Arsenal fans for the past 3 months has been to spend 60mil on Icardi (ridiculous), 45mil on Lacazette (the cash we spent 3 years ago on the universally-considered #1 AM in the world at that time), 75mil on Higuain (who went for 40mil 3 years ago). Wenger is refusing to engage in a bullshit market.

The difference here is that this is the forward market. Centre forwards have and always will cost more than any other position because goals are the most valuable commodity in football.

The only way to get the price down here is to buy them before their goalscoring explodes, but we don't do that, either. We could have got Lacazette a year ago for a cheaper price. Could have signed Icardi from Sampdoria. Definitely could have signed Higuain for £30mil three years ago. So let's not pretend the opportunities have never been there.

Other clubs are beating us in the market and winning titles, but then completely collapsing because they aren't laying foundations.

Which clubs are these? Chelsea started their large spending in 2005 and have had just two seasons outside the top four since and have won a load of trophies. City started in 2009 and since 2011 haven't finished outside the top four and have won the PL twice. And comparing us to them now I'd say those two have a better foundation than we do to win titles.


Last edited by Jay29 on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by sportsczy on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:37 pm

I think there's a possible other explanation...  Kroenke is building a 2 billion USD stadium in Los Angeles for the LA Rams and it's set to open in 2 years.  I can easily see him looking to pilfer as much as he can from his other businesses (including Arsenal) to help pay for that project.  He has the money without a problem.  But the construction is paid 80% via debt and, even at 2-3% interest, it's a lot of money.

Just speculating.  But it happens all the time.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Raptorgunner on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:55 pm

Wenger: "I do what I think is right & I think I have shown in 20 years that it doesn't work too badly." Shocked

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by RealGunner on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:57 pm

How many games have you managed?

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by El Gunner on Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:02 pm

Are you calling out my man Rapz?

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by RealGunner on Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:03 pm

Arsene is hmm
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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Eman on Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:11 pm

Jay29 wrote:
We literally have been asking him to compete with the rest of the league and go crazy. The language of Arsenal fans for the past 3 months has been to spend 60mil on Icardi (ridiculous), 45mil on Lacazette (the cash we spent 3 years ago on the universally-considered #1 AM in the world at that time), 75mil on Higuain (who went for 40mil 3 years ago). Wenger is refusing to engage in a bullshit market.

The difference here is that this is the forward market. Centre forwards have and always will cost more than any other position because goals are the most valuable commodity in football.

The only way to get the price down here is to buy them before their goalscoring explodes, but we don't do that, either. We could have got Lacazette a year ago for a cheaper price. Could have signed Icardi from Sampdoria. Definitely could have signed Higuain for £30mil three years ago. So let's not pretend the opportunities have never been there.
I never suggested that they haven't been. We should have gotten Higuain, we wouldn't have been able to afford Ozil but we needed Higuain more than we needed Ozil. And Lacazette, perhaps we should have as well but for whatever reason we decided not to. For Icardi from Sampdoria, at that time he had a lot of controversy surrounding him so I'm not surprised we didn't do it.

But in any case, right now their prices are what they are, and they are unreasonable. To get a top level striker you need to pay I agree, and we will have to do it and we will have to be unreasonable. I've said in each of my comments that we need to pay the fees regardless, I'm just saying that if we go too far over a realistic valuation then we will suffer in the long-run. I wish he weren't doing this, but he's not doing it because he's an idiot and that's the only point I've been trying to make.
Other clubs are beating us in the market and winning titles, but then completely collapsing because they aren't laying foundations.
Which clubs are these? Chelsea started their large spending in 2005 and have had just two seasons outside the top four since and have won a load of trophies. City started in 2009 and since 2011 haven't finished outside the top four and have won the PL twice. And comparing us to them now I'd say those two have a better foundation than we do to win titles.

Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City haven't all 'collapsed', perhaps not the best word, but City has a team of old man who are slowing down because they only bought players in their prime and Chelsea have been guilty of this too. Man Utd refused to invest in youth and their attempts to make their starting XI great again have been failures up until this summer. If you end up needing spend 15-20mil on even unglamourous positions like a fullback or DM, which every team in this league seems to do when we find them for a third of that, you are hurting your ability to compete in the long-run and setting expectations that harm the whole league.

I really think all of you missed the point of what I was trying to say. I wasn't saying we shouldn't spend money, I'm just trying to say he's not doing what he's doing to fill his or the shareholders' pockets. He's doing it out of morals, not personal greed or stupidity, yet the accusations thrown his way are consistently that he's doing it out of greed or stupidity and has no plan at all. Wenger always has a plan, even if us fans hate it most of the time.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Raptorgunner on Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:25 pm

RealGunner wrote:How many games have you managed?



for past 20 years? hmm

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Jay29 on Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:47 pm

All this talk of long term planning and being careful with out money - it's like it's 2010 again. Neutral
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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by Chumlum on Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:22 pm

All this "if only" vibe coming out of the club. Obviously a club shouldn't be run to cater to the instant whims of fans. In this sense I think Wenger & the board have sometimes shown wisdom when under pressure. But it's also clear that they've misrepresented themselves and under-performed time and time again. It's not solely transfers, it's overall squad management falling short.

- too many players whose positions and/or roles are ill-defined
- too many young players who are genuinely talented and promising, but whose development falters and disappoints because of injuries and/or subpar coaching & management
- poor handling of 'deadwood' or otherwise of good players that the club would benefit more from selling off to raise funds

:facepalm:

I look with envy at how Pep is revitalizing Man City - not simply through new signings but actually energizing the players the club already has, including some grizzled veterans. I think that this Arsenal squad could be similarly renewed with just a few good additions and some tinkering on the training ground.
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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by LeBéninois on Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:12 pm

Raptorgunner wrote:Wenger: "I do what I think is right & I think I have shown in 20 years that it doesn't work too badly." Shocked


He's right tbf. If Arsenal FC was mine I'll be delighted to have Wenger as a manager because he has been getting good results consistently and do no ask/insist to spend big in order to get stars. Arsenal FC is a well runned club.
However I start supporting them in 2006 because it was an exciting team with a big room for improvement. Let's be serious. The club/team is not exciting anymore.
-Lack of improvement of formers '' talents'': Wilshere, Walcott, Oxalade
- Signing of players who are good enough : Park Chu Young , Sanogo, Kim Kallstrom Laughing Laughing Park chu Young was actually having a decent career before moving to Arsenal.
- Young players not improving, not the slightest bit (Joel Campbell)
-No new signings. Thank Real for letting Ozl go, thanks Chelsea for Cech and thanks Barca for Sanchez.
- Arsenal is club that could have easily signed Luis Suarez ffs.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by MJ on Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:11 am

I don't get how people still look back at 2013 and simultaneously praise Özil's signing while slating the club for not getting Suarez/Higuain now that they're top tier strikers.

It wasn't likely that we were ever signing both. And if we're writing off signing Cech and Sanchez as happy circumstance then a lot of transfers, bar world record fees, are luck and therefore should not be considered good, calculated moves? We have to over-pay and pry a player out of his club just to give Wenger some credit?

Also, @Beninois, there are plenty of cases of young players stagnating but Campbell isn't one of them. He's gotten more productive with game time, it's not that he hasn't improved. It's that his good form is never deemed worthy of consistent playing time. It's unfair to say he hasn't improved.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by 6unner on Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:43 am

sportsczy wrote:I think there's a possible other explanation...  Kroenke is building a 2 billion USD stadium in Los Angeles for the LA Rams and it's set to open in 2 years.  I can easily see him looking to pilfer as much as he can from his other businesses (including Arsenal) to help pay for that project.  He has the money without a problem.  But the construction is paid 80% via debt and, even at 2-3% interest, it's a lot of money.

Just speculating.  But it happens all the time.


Relax he will not invest in the players to win titles with them either.

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Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

Post by mani88 on Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:52 am

Eman wrote:
What he *wants* to do is win without spending huge sums so that clubs see what he's trying to do, understand why he's doing it, and follow his lead. However, if he fails, he will have ruined our club's chances of success for no reason at all. I truly hope that he does it for the good of us 1st of all but the EPL as well and can go down as a hero for it, and as I said I respect him more for having these values which I agree with; if nobody looks at the big picture Economics of what is happening then England will become a laughing stock...but I am very worried for us all the same.


Leicester just did that about 4 months ago.
We should not spend to spend but if there are obvious deficiencies they should be rectified either from within or by buying somone. We obviously dont have internal solutions so the holes need to be plugged.
Now what quality material you plug the holes with is the issue. You just want to do "NOT TOO BAD" or GOOD or SPECTACULAR.

If there is a world class player available then the selling team will not think who they sell to but what would they earn. If Norwich or Crystal Palace pay more they will get the player and we will be left with players who no body is willing to take due to being untested or inexperienced or whatever the reason may be.

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