Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by DeviAngel on Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:56 pm

352 is dead formation especially without Marchisio. Asamoah needed to be sold not Pereyra his place is with the u21. Allegri is at fault too for today's loss. Pjaca needs to play more and Dybala needs rest.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by dronte on Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:03 pm

Dybala looked so off today. Sandro was a beast though, but you could see after the 2 goals that he was totally out of energy.

Our midfield is weak, Chiellini's lapses of concentration are really annoying.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by DeviAngel on Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:04 pm

Licht is out of the CL squad and Alves the clown is in rofl

Sandro thou :bow:

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by Warrior on Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:10 pm

So here's the key to get points against us...

Put heavy pressure on our midfielders + intensive marking on Dybala.

Asamoah lacks creativity.
Khedira lacks speed as well as creativity.
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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by rincon on Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:10 pm

Allegri was not at fault today. Higuain should have played but its not like Mandzukic is a scrub either, he led our line last season.

Inter have a great 11 and they finally played to their potential. Credit to them.

Khedira was a real flop. Asamoah wasn't great but we knew that.

Dybala is too tired. He couldn't cope with Inter's pressing.
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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by rincon on Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:11 pm

@DeviAngel wrote:Licht is out of the CL squad and Alves the clown is in rofl

Sandro thou :bow:


This. I've said it so many times. Litch should have never been dropped for Alves.

Sandro is truly a beast. Clear first choice for LWB now.
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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by dronte on Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:47 pm

I remember Khedira being called WC few weeks ago here Very Happy and now he is getting bashed.

He might not be the fastest players ever but his positioning is definitely great, and adds a lot of pressure to our attacks. He might have misfired this week but he is still currently our best midfielder (if we don't count Pjanic).

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by Warrior on Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:13 pm

Khedira is world class when we are controlling the match. Because of his positionning, as you said.

Today he was useless because he is not the one who will unlock a situation with his passing. There was no much pressure from Inter that we couldn't do shit from the midfield and we had to compensate that by attacking from the wings. After a while of constant back-and-forth the guy clearly had no fuel left in the tank.
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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by salmano9 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:32 pm

We needed this loss Imo. We deserved it... It should push us and make us more aware. I liked allegri's post match conference.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by salmano9 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:34 pm

@DeviAngel wrote:352 is dead formation especially without Marchisio. Asamoah needed to be sold not Pereyra his place is with the u21. Allegri is at fault too for today's loss. Pjaca needs to play more and Dybala needs rest.

Completely agree Dev. Asamoah is not the same... Pereyra is good but he is not Juve level. I saw the watford game today VS united and he made me proud. Smile I love him, but Watford is the place for him.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by juvealbanian on Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:36 pm

I give up on Allegri.He is clearly responsable for 2 negative results,he needs to change things fast or we need another coach.

First it's ridiculous to play defensive against Inter, they were playing 4-3-3 with far less capable players especially their wing-backs.

Allegri decides to play freaking Mandzukic in such a important match when he has a player that we bought for 90 mln sitting on the bench until final 10 minutes.
Also I said other times as well , we don't have the best midfield in Serie A anymore but Pjanic-Khedira-Lemina must start with Lemina and Khedira switching their current positions.Khedira has lost at least 3 clear goals these last 2 matches because of his limited speed and skills on the ball.Pjanic was limited as well today as he spent much energy playing deep.

Only Alex Sandro was playing on his 100%...other than that I put most of responsability to Allegri's cowardish defensive approach and non-sense moves combined with substitutions coming around 80th minute, that reminds me the boring and the worst days we had under Conte.
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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by salmano9 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:05 pm

@juvealbanian wrote:I give up on Allegri.He is clearly responsable for 2 negative results,he needs to change things fast or we need another coach.

First it's ridiculous to play defensive against Inter, they were playing 4-3-3 with far less capable players especially their wing-backs.

Allegri decides to play freaking Mandzukic in such a important match when he has a player that we bought for 90 mln sitting on the bench until final 10 minutes.
Also I said other times as well , we don't have the best midfield in Serie A anymore but Pjanic-Khedira-Lemina must start with Lemina and Khedira switching their current positions.Khedira has lost at least 3 clear goals these last 2 matches because of his limited speed and skills on the ball.Pjanic was limited as well today as he spent much energy playing deep.

Only Alex Sandro was playing on his 100%...other than that I put most of responsability to Allegri's cowardish defensive approach and non-sense moves combined with substitutions coming around 80th minute, that reminds me the boring and the worst days we had under Conte.

Relax my freind, relax. We can't play full throttle all the time. Barcelona lost against Alaves the other day. Our midfield is not the best in the league as you said, but Marchisio is clearly missing. Pjanic is useless out there in the regista role... He does not play the same role as Pirlo who directs the play. Pjanic did not direct the play like Pirlo, and the whole team played badly except for Sandro. Even Licht didn't do much on attack.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by juvealbanian on Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:42 pm

I'm calm & relaxed but that's the truth.Allegri is the reason we lost points in our most important matches this week.You can't judge our team against mid and low table Serie A teams,these two matches were our true test and we failed them both.

I've had my doubts over Allegri,even though he proved to be a good coach many times I think he is becoming coward and stubborn like Conte's worst season.
We got all we need to beat anyone in Serie A, you can't let Inter win like this,because you boost a direct rivals morale.

Anyways I said Allegri needs to find a way to make this team work, the top players and everything he needs is there, if he doesn't then we should fire him,simple.

I can only imagine what this team could have achieved this season if we had Cholo Simeone as our coach.
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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by rincon on Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:48 pm

Lets hope this wakes us up. Allegri and Buffon had the right comments about the team after the match. Looking at it, its so bad in terms of results. We had a terrible run of matches to start the season and sit on 9 points in the league.

Fiorentina
Lazio
Sassuolo
Sevilla
Inter

We would have had 0 points last year with that schedule. Now we have 3 matches in 9 days but they are more manageable

Cagliari
Palermo
Zagreb

Those should be a win in Cagliari and Zagreb and at worst a draw at Palermo. Then we'd fine.

The only worry for me is Napoli. The have the depth they didn't have last year. Sarri has already rotated everyone (the lack of rotation was their biggest issue last season) except Callejon and he just got Giaccherini and El Kaddouri back. Their forwards (besides not having Higuain) are in even better form than last season. They got 14 goals in 5 games but conceded 6. Their schedule has been a lot easier too so there is that, but I don't see them dropping soon unless they rotate heavily for Chievo to prepare for CL and end up drawing. It will be a tough season.
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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by rincon on Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:54 pm

@juvealbanian wrote:I'm calm & relaxed but that's the truth.Allegri is the reason we lost points in our most important matches this week.You can't judge our team against mid and low table Serie A teams,these two matches were our true test and we failed them both.

I've had my doubts over Allegri,even though he proved to be a good coach many times I think he is becoming coward and stubborn like Conte's worst season.
We got all we need to beat anyone in Serie A, you can't let Inter win like this,because you boost a direct rivals morale.

Anyways I said Allegri needs to find a way to make this team work, the top players and everything he needs is there, if he doesn't then we should fire him,simple.

I can only imagine what this team could have achieved this season if we had Cholo Simeone as our coach.


Have you seen Atletico play any big game? Simeone has the most negative tactics I've seen in a manager in a long long time. Pure stop-start, breaking up play, fouling, all around cynical play.

I still don't see how some of you blame tonight on Allegri and not the players.

So if Higuain doesn't start then our team is supposed to suck?

What happened to our other 11 players that started? they are the same ones that won last year. He set up a lineup that was perfectly fine. We can't be so dependent on Higuain. It was Khedira and Asamoah who let us down tonight, not Allegri.

How did he show stubbornness tonight when he set out with 5 changes from the Sevilla game?

So we criticize him for the Sevilla lineup, then he changes 5 players and we criticize him again for the same reasons? We must understand that this is the squad. These are the players we have. Its up to them to perform as well.
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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by salmano9 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:38 pm

@rincon wrote:
@juvealbanian wrote:I'm calm & relaxed but that's the truth.Allegri is the reason we lost points in our most important matches this week.You can't judge our team against mid and low table Serie A teams,these two matches were our true test and we failed them both.

I've had my doubts over Allegri,even though he proved to be a good coach many times I think he is becoming coward and stubborn like Conte's worst season.
We got all we need to beat anyone in Serie A, you can't let Inter win like this,because you boost a direct rivals morale.

Anyways I said Allegri needs to find a way to make this team work, the top players and everything he needs is there, if he doesn't then we should fire him,simple.

I can only imagine what this team could have achieved this season if we had Cholo Simeone as our coach.


Have you seen Atletico play any big game? Simeone has the most negative tactics I've seen in a manager in a long long time. Pure stop-start, breaking up play, fouling, all around cynical play.

I still don't see how some of you blame tonight on Allegri and not the players.

So if Higuain doesn't start then our team is supposed to suck?

What happened to our other 11 players that started? they are the same ones that won last year. He set up a lineup that was perfectly fine. We can't be so dependent on Higuain. It was Khedira and Asamoah who let us down tonight, not Allegri.

How did he show stubbornness tonight when he set out with 5 changes from the Sevilla game?

So we criticize him for the Sevilla lineup, then he changes 5 players and we criticize him again for the same reasons? We must understand that this is the squad. These are the players we have. Its up to them to perform as well.

I agree. Listen @juvealbanian, as rincon says, it is the whole team, not the formation. We got back last year from November playing the same tactics as we started, 352. It is just all in their heads. Maybe the team were affected after the fans' response to the draw in Sevilla...? I believe it is all a mental problem, nothing else... We are made up of champions.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by juve_gigi on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:27 am

The 3-5-2 is dead. It died a long time ago. I can't believe such a smart person like Allegri continues to employ it. We tie Sevilla and lose to Inter who just lost to a beer league team. What a joke.

If Allegri continues to disregard common sense and play this archaic 3-5-2 then we will surely bow our of the CL in the round of 16 or quarter finals. And then Allegri will be looking at a new job with Crotone.

Basic mathematics tells you that 3 forwards will always beat out 2 forwards. I learned this in my grade 1 math class. If a team like Inter can beat us using a 4-3-3 what's gonna happen when we play the likes of Barca, Bayern and Madrid??

We have players on the bench that can come in and play those wing positions. We can play 3-5-2 against the likes of Udinese. But when it is the CL competition or a Serie A rival we neee to switch to a 4 man backline and either go with a 4-4-2 which can be switched to a 4-2-4 during the game for more attacking pressure or we go with a 4-3-3. Or we could even play Pjanic in a more advanced role as a CAM in a 4-3-1-2.

Sorry the 3-5-2 is dead. Barzagli and Chiellini are past their due dates. I'd like to see Rugani get some game time soon. Maybe in one of the next 3 games, especially if Benatia is injured for a bit.

Here's hoping Allegri grows a pair and doesn't become Conte 2.0 with his cowardness to take risks and make 80th minute substitutions when you need a goal.

Oh and what's with the €90 million dollar man starting on the bench in a derby? Has Allegri lost his mind? Mandzukic cound have started against the powerhouse Calgiari team in mid week. You don't bench your top striker in a derby. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by salmano9 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:36 am

@Gigi, patience patience... I'm sure you wrote this post very hastily. The entire team didn't play well. Whether it was going to be a 352 433 etc... it wouldn't have mattered anyways.

As for the Higuain issue, you have to ask Allegri. Maybe there is a good reason that Allegri had to bench him. I trust Allegri.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by lucianomoggi on Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:10 am

no panic comments, no panic decisions we should see more from the team before making decisions



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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by juve_gigi on Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:15 am

I don't have patience when it comes to the 3-5-2. It died a long time ago and I have no patience when someone continues to employ it. No other top team in Europe employs this archaic 3-5-2 formation, heck not even Conte himself plays it and he's the one who started it.

Allegri needs to grow a pair and start siting out one of BBC and switch to a 4 man backline. Icardi was toying with us today. He should of had a brace and could have scored 3. If Icardi can toy with us what about the likes of Messi, Neymar, Suarez, Ronaldo, Bale, Robben, Lewandowski?? I don't care about these league games because we can win the scudetto with Mandzukic and Lemina in our starting lineup. I care about what's gonna happen when we have to play the big boys. We couldn't even score against the likes of Sevilla, Allegri had no balls to attack that team and we paid for it. What's gonna happen when we actually play a top team?

Barzagli looks like an old man now. Benatia has already outplayed him and he is better playing in a 4 man backline. I've seen Chiellini make more mistakes this year with club and country then all of last year combined. He's getting past his due date very fast.

We better beat the fodder that's coming up, that's all I gotta say.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by juve_gigi on Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:29 am

Oh and I thought we signed that Cuadrado guy. I thought for sure I saw his hair on the sidelines. I guess he's out of shape and needs to learn how to play in our 3-5-2 system before Allegri unleashes him.

Oh wait he already played for us last year so he knows that archaic formation quite well.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by juve_gigi on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:02 am

Juventus lacking ideas and tactically poor in loss to Inter Milan...

Slow to react, cumbersome in their movements, Juventus were rightly defeated 2-1 by a more determined and fluid Inter Milan side that fought for the win.

Bereft of ideas and so often caught in possession, the Bianconeri struggled to keep the ball and looked overwhelmed in midfield, failing to create or play with their usual intensity. With no pace in the side and no quality in attack, Massimiliano Allegri needed to make changes quickly but as usual waited until the 70th minute rendering his side offensively impotent for the vast majority of the game.

Positives

The one thing of note is that despite the team's dire performance, they did manage to open the scoring largely thanks to Alex Sandro who never stops running and producing for the side. While the wing-back is always capable of a mistake or two, he can always be counted upon to believe in the win until the end.

Negatives

Another goal conceded from the corner, Juventus struggled in defence. However, the lack of quality in midfield proved to be the real problem forcing Paulo Dybala to drop back so deep, he failed to make the difference in front of goal.

With Miralem Pjanic not on his game and Kwadwo Asamoah lacking the skill required at this level, Juve struggled in both keeping possession and in creating sophisticated patterns of play to overcome Inter's solid defending.

Manager rating out of 10

5 -- "There are three or four games in a season that you feel can be decisive at the end of the day and this, against a strong Inter side, is one of them," noted Allegri in his post-match news conference. If that was so, then why was Gonzalo Higuain on the bench? Why was Kwadwo Asamoah included and why did it take so long to make the substitutions and correct the mistakes made initially?

The midfield clearly lacked the technique to hold possession and create. Claudio Marchisio's absence was keenly felt but why was Marko Pjaca, a central midfielder once upon a time, not played from the start or introduced earlier as a substitute? The time to make an impact is now, Juventus must start on the front foot to build momentum and that includes winning these games.

Player ratings (1-10; 10=best; players introduced after 70 minutes get no rating):

GK Gianluigi Buffon, 6 -- Couldn't avoid conceding the goals -- no heroic performance today.

DF Mehdi Benatia, 6 -- Had to come off early with an injury but played with confidence while he was on.

DF Leonardo Bonucci, 6 -- Dealt with Mauro Icardi rather well and demonstrated the beauty of his passing game.

DF Giorgio Chiellini, 6 -- Made several mistakes to put Juventus in a dangerous position yet always plays with tenacity and intensity to block the opponent as well as he can.

DF Stephan Lichtsteiner, 6 -- Accused of causing problems due to his desire to join Inter over the summer, it was Lichtsteiner's clever running that led him to scoring the opening goal. However, he struggled to really push forward and demonstrate his tactical intelligence.

DF Alex Sandro, 6 -- It was thanks to his accurate crossing that Juventus opened the scoring. Relentless in his desire to maraud up and down the left lane, he was one of the few who really tried to play. Always produces a mistake though.

MF Sami Khedira, 6 -- Quickly becoming the man who wastes chances, there is no point in timing his runs to perfection if he cannot convert his opportunities. Khedira has to produce better finishes. Off the pace in midfield today too.

MF Miralem Pjanic, 6 -- Rather unnoticeable. Produced a good free kick but failed to provide true inspiration from midfield or help the side initiate anything worthwhile. The game almost passed him by in a blur.

MF Kwadwo Asamoah, 5 -- While the player always plays with heart, he is not suited to play against the better sides, especially not in central midfield. Lacks technique, caught in possession too often, he struggles to maintain composure and play with intelligence. Error prone.

FW Paulo Dybala, 6 -- The Argentine has yet to play like himself this season. Occasionally he drops so deep that he's unable to provide the quality Juventus need in the final third. Lacked control in certain situations and played with frustration rather than drive the team forward.

FW Mario Mandzukic, 5 -- He needed to make an impression on this game to secure more game time but instead the Croatian lacked rhythm, ideas and the tenacity required to overcome the defenders and do something.

Substitutes:

DF Andrea Barzagli, 6 -- Received a yellow card immediately after being introduced. A little tetchy and not as composed as usual.

FW Gonzalo Higuain, N/A -- Certainly more dangerous than Mandzukic and nearly produced a goal. Should have started the match.

FW Marko Pjaca, N/A -- Immediately tried to integrate himself in the game. Should have been afforded more minutes.

Mina Rzouki covers Juventus and the Italian national team for ESPN FC. Twitter: @Minarzouki.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by rincon on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:54 am

I keep reading "4 man backline". Who exactly would play in such a team that would be an improvement over our current lineup?

Lets say we do it, I guess the options are either 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 since we don't have enough quality midfielders to field 4 at the same time. If we would have fielded 4-4-2 last night against Inter we would have gotten absolutely annihilated. They already pressed the hell out of our 3 mids, playing with 2 would have made it even easier for them to isolate our guys. Khedira-Pjanic alone would have been a disaster, no running and little tackling.

So we play 4-3-3. The only LW we have in the squad is Pjaca (unless you throw Mandzukic at LW). In this case, we sacrifice the system that got us like 20 wins in a row last year to play a 22 year old who hasn't had more than 40 minutes of football outside the croatian league. And that so while also pushing Dybala, our best forward, out of position to the RW. No doubt Dybala would adapt, but we would be minimizing his impact. So to play a 22 year old kid with no experience we push Dybala wide, bench one of our most influential defenders, and change the system. No. Not at the derby.

The answer is not randomly changing formations, its getting the midfield 3 to work in any way. Pjanic hasn't understood the team yet and Asamoah lacks too much. Even Khedira who was great at the start looked poor against Inter. Given how bad Asamoah was I'd go with Lemina again in the middle. When Pjanic next to him, Lemina would just have to keep it simple and in that case he may do well. We really need Sturaro and Marchisio. Marchisio is worth too much to this team. Sturaro could be key too, we need players covering more ground. I don't know if Sturaro can play on the left, but that would be a great solution. He can provide good cover to let Pjanic do his thing.

Inter had Banega-Medel-Mario. Thats a better trio than we had simply because it fits well. A conductor of play, a DM, and a well rounded AM. We need to find our 3 that click like that.
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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by juve_gigi on Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:05 am

When Marchisio is back we can play a 4-3-3. Until then we can try a 4-4-2:

Lichtsteiner Bonucci Chiellini Sandro
Cuadrado Khedira Pjanic Pjaca
Higuain Dybala

That can easily turn into a 4-2-4 when pressing. Pjaca was a CM before he turned into a winger, he even stated as such, he's never been a striker so not sure why he is even playing behind Dybala as his backup. So Pjaca can play at LCM and Cuadrado can move to RW and that formation can easily switch to a 4-3-3 as well. You can also play Asamoah wide left in a 4-4-2 if you are protecting a lead.

If you want to play 4-3-3 right now then you can try:

Khedira Lemina Pjanic
Cuadrado Higuain Dybala

Eihter way you keep your back 4 intact and sub in Alvies and Benatia. Barzagli would be my 4th option at CB right now. Evra also would be a last option off the bench.

The point is at least TRY something different. Allegri can mix and match and see what works best. 3-5-2 will never work in Europe and so Allegri has to experiment in Serie A to iron out all the details for his new lineup. The problem I have and Tom has pointed this out as well is Allegri doesn't even seem to want to deviate from this 3-5-2 at all and he is also lazy with his substitutions when things are not going well, waiting until the 70th minute to make changes. In today's game he waited almost 7 minutes after Icardi scored before he put Higuain in. Why not put him in sooner? Same with Pjaca. Waits until the 80th minute to put him in and takes out Chiellini. So we basically played with 3 forwards for the last 14 minutes. And we were pressing at the end. Why not switch to 3 forwards after Inter tied it up? Cause Allegri wanted to be conservative and play safe.

Anyways, we have 3 relatively easy games coming up. Why not go with a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 and see what happens? Get Pjaca and Cuadrado involved early in the game and see what happens. I can guarantee you that won't happen though. Allegri will play the same formation in all three games guaranteed.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by rincon on Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:21 am

Trying those is fine against Cagliari. I'd actually like Pjaca to start over Dybala to give him some rest. But Sevilla and Inter were not the time for it. Cagliari, Chievo and Palermo should be used to find alternatives and get the team playing properly.

If Allegri started Pjaca at LW/LCM in a 4-4-2 and it backfired then he would have gotten extreme heat for it. Khedira and Pjanic is far too soft for them to be a midfield 2 against a side with a strong midfield. To play a 4-4-2 we need Marchisio to stir things. Unless of course Pjaca turns out to be some sort of Pogba at LCM but I can't say.

Dybala on the left wing is also something I wouldn't try. That would get him even farther from goal and he is way too left footed. I'd rather put Cuadrado at LW in that case but thats also weird.

Getting the midfield settled and fixing our set piece defending is a must. We have 3 Serie A games to get it right before things get complicated again.
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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

Post by Andrew on Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:34 pm

Boy, how much I miss having Vidal and Tevez.

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Re: Juventus Match Hub 2016-17

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