Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Luca on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:40 am

@Tomwin Lannister wrote:I used to watch a lot of football, outside of a couple big games I only bother with Juve now but this is becoming a chore. I feel like i'm wasting 90 minutes of my *bleep* life watching a team that can't string 3 passes together so if this keeps up i'm taking a nice long break from football. Got other shit to do in my evenings. Pathetic.


Main man Tom, I think I said the exact same thing to my friend earlier. I missed the game because I was at work but hearing how bad we played from him made me not regret anything.

Sometimes results don't come but sometimes it isn't about winning or losing (but if you're playing bad please at least bring home these three points in the CL of all competitions), but its the approach, its the way we play. Despite the immense amount of talent, the approach is just plain bad.

How can we expect to win the CL if we are not a fortress at home? Just the opposite, draws against Lyon and Sevilla, not easy games by any means but games you surely expect to win, I think that's fair for the team we are fielding.

I think this season's story is beat the smaller teams in Italy quite comfortably, win the odd big game at home and come up short in games like away to Milan, Inter, Roma and Napoli (2 losses in 2 so far).

The CL is all about the draw and it is far from over, we also have the luxury of time to recuperate but I think I speak for everyone when I say this is not the Juventus we have seen in the past 4-5 seasons.

Tom is the British version of me

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by salmano9 on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:53 am

@DeviAngel wrote:
@Warrior wrote:It's 5:47 p.m where i live, yeah we played like shit but at least i didn't lost my evening... u mad bro ?

Mandzukic looks like someone who couldn't care less. Should *bleep* off in Croatia and play Bingo instead.


Wait what? Mandzukic was the only one giving shit, he played CM, DM, CB, RB, LB, SS, CF, AM everything he was everywhere ffs.

Allegri has to do something about his. His - We didn't play bad - is starting to worry me like A LOT.

Don't blame it on Mandzu man... Higuain missed one of those easy finishes where he was unmarked and noone mentions it? Bro Mandzu ran his socks off in this game. He got injured and I thought he wouldn't complete the game, but instead he played everywhere. We are missing the entertainment factor for sure. I don't know how long this will last, because even Marrota confirmed the other day that he doesn't care if we play ugly. He just wants the win. We can't score one goal, defend and hoping that the other team won't score. I mean this could happen in Serie A, but the Champions League is the best competition in the world and it doesn't work the same way there,

I agree with you Luca, it is totally unacceptable not to win those games at home. Who are we? Zagreb? Even if we beat Sevilla away next game, which I highly doubt, it doesn't change the fact that we have to improve the play we play. Serie A is really proving to be a shitty league.

Instead of looking at how we conceded the goal, we should really focus on improving our attack and score.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by DeviAngel on Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:32 am

I get this feeling like Pjanic has still his 'Roma' mentality.

I agree with Luca we have to be a fortress at home all big teams are draw is good AWAY against teams like BM, Barca, RM this should be our year that we make that final step BUT Its not late I'll judge in March so far I have faith Allegri will find the solution, but he better do it fast.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by dronte on Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:00 am

Mandzukic was one of those very few players who actually fought ridiculously hard especially until the knock on his knee..

Ridiculous play by us btw, and Allegri is saying we took too many risks lmao

We sat back in the worst possible fashion passing around the back 3-4 80% of the match. terrible terrible

Also that Sturaro dance made me lol so bad. sums up our midfield these days

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Andrew on Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:31 am

We are 3 months into the season and we haven't fielded our best 11 yet.

Calma.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:35 am

@dronte wrote:Mandzukic was one of those very few players who actually fought ridiculously hard especially until the knock on his knee..


Agree, Mandzukic really can't be blamed for last night. He gave everything.

@DeviAngel wrote:I get this feeling like Pjanic has still his 'Roma' mentality.


I get that feeling too. Pjanic is playing like he is scared of everything. His quality shines at moments but he doesn't tackle the game like we are used to seeing. Truly the anti-Pogba, even when he was crap, Pogba played like he must always be involved. Pjanic on the other hand shies away from responsibility.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:36 am

Andrew_p wrote:We are 3 months into the season and we haven't fielded our best 11 yet.

Calma.


Yeah, I think we will kick start now that players are more available. Last year we were even worse and then went into god-mode. Lets hope its the same case.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Andrew on Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:49 am

One thing is for sure, Allegri is trying to create chemistry between the players but some of them look tired as frak because a) they were either recently injured or b) because some of them played almost all of our games so far, and those things definitely don't help.

Also about Pjanic. When I see him, I always get surprised with how physically weak he is. I see him during games getting disposed of possession and instantly bring to my mind his pictures taken when he was having his medicals with us at the J medical where his body looked anything but athletic.

I might be wrong but I think we should give him the "Dybala treatment". Have him do some weight lifting at the gym and build him some pounds of muscle.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:15 pm

Higuain and specially Mandzukic are tired. All the games in a row starting. Pjaca got injured at the worst time, he would have had tons of game time. Sandro too is probably our player with the most minutes, although he looks fit as hell.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Andrew on Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:23 pm

Pjanic looks tired and confused with all the position changes he had so far but the worst is Khedira imo. The guy looks exhausted.


Last edited by Andrew_p on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:26 pm

Also worth noting that basically everyone is struggling.

Madrid drew Legia. Barca lost. Arsenal went 2-0 down to Ludogorets. PSG lost to Arsenal, etc.

Only Atletico Madrid is keeping it consistent and even they needed a 90 minute goal to win.

Strange season so far.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by lucianomoggi on Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:34 pm

i have no prob with 4312 formation but see the problem is if you look at the formation you can say it has 4 men in the center which is really good when defending but when you attacking you also want to have players who can open wide something like 352

and that was possible with pogba as he was versatile and focused on center + left wing and one of side backs steping forwards making it 352

but without pogba 4312 is a stupid decision unless you play Cuadrado in center , or asamoah

because you want to have a team capable to fill the wings + the center when attacking, or at least sometimes you want that as a plan b, plan c whatsoever,

but even that, it is still a respectful approach i would say, a little defensive minded as you opening no wingers, no side strikers, your idea is for a draw, or if possible win from nowhere, with set pieces or whatsoever, which is cool if you dont really feel like you have a superior team to others, or at least team on progress, whatsoever

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Andrew on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:05 pm

@rincon wrote:Also worth noting that basically everyone is struggling.

Madrid drew Legia. Barca lost. Arsenal went 2-0 down to Ludogorets. PSG lost to Arsenal, etc.

Only Atletico Madrid is keeping it consistent and even they needed a 90 minute goal to win.

Strange season so far.
Yeah, after international competitions clubs with many international players seem to be off their usual standards. I think it was us along with Liverpool the teams with the most players representing their countries in the tournament ?

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:07 pm

Basically all of our players where in the tournaments. Lets hope that the winter break does us good.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Andrew on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:08 pm

@lucianomoggi wrote:i have no prob with 4312 formation but see the problem is if you look at the formation you can say it has 4 men in the center which is really good when defending but when you attacking you also want to have players who can open wide something like 352

and that was possible with pogba as he was versatile and focused on center + left wing and one of side backs steping forwards making it 352

but without pogba 4312 is a stupid decision unless you play Cuadrado in center , or asamoah

because you want to have a team capable to fill the wings + the center when attacking, or at least sometimes you want that as a plan b, plan c whatsoever,

but even that, it is still a respectful approach i would say, a little defensive minded as you opening no wingers, no side strikers, your idea is for a draw, or if possible win from nowhere, with set pieces or whatsoever, which is cool if you dont really feel like you have a superior team to others, or at least team on progress, whatsoever
I agree about the midfield. I honestly believe we should try Cuadrado as a CMF, like Ancelotti did with Di Maria at Real. Khedira simply doesn't do enough to get the ball forward or to create space.

Pjanic - Marchisio - Cuadrado either in a 3-5-2 or in a 4-3-1-2 could actually work imo.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:28 pm

Higuain - Dybala

Sandro - Pjanic - Marchisio - Cuadrado

Chiellini - Bonucci - Barzagli - Alves

4-4-2/3-5-2
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Tomwin Lannister on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:51 pm

@Luca wrote:
@Tomwin Lannister wrote:I used to watch a lot of football, outside of a couple big games I only bother with Juve now but this is becoming a chore. I feel like i'm wasting 90 minutes of my *bleep* life watching a team that can't string 3 passes together so if this keeps up i'm taking a nice long break from football. Got other shit to do in my evenings. Pathetic.


Main man Tom, I think I said the exact same thing to my friend earlier. I missed the game because I was at work but hearing how bad we played from him made me not regret anything.

Sometimes results don't come but sometimes it isn't about winning or losing (but if you're playing bad please at least bring home these three points in the CL of all competitions), but its the approach, its the way we play. Despite the immense amount of talent, the approach is just plain bad.

How can we expect to win the CL if we are not a fortress at home? Just the opposite, draws against Lyon and Sevilla, not easy games by any means but games you surely expect to win, I think that's fair for the team we are fielding.

I think this season's story is beat the smaller teams in Italy quite comfortably, win the odd big game at home and come up short in games like away to Milan, Inter, Roma and Napoli (2 losses in 2 so far).

The CL is all about the draw and it is far from over, we also have the luxury of time to recuperate but I think I speak for everyone when I say this is not the Juventus we have seen in the past 4-5 seasons.

Tom is the British version of me




Proud


It's just that the way we play, and the fact that this is also (judging by Allegri's comments) not far off what his idea of how we should be playing is awful. It's painful to watch. Sure our vastly superior squad to most teams gets us the results but there is absolutely no joy in watching us play this season, and for large stretches of the last one.

There needs to be the right balance between results and entertainment and right now we don't have it. Fans of clubs similar to Juve in stature and objectives would be rioting if their teams could barely make 3 passes without long balling it to nowhere in particular at home to 'inferior' opposition.

So spending my evenings postponing literally anything and everything that clashes with Juve games (Which I have done and rarely regretted for well over a decade now) is not worth it any more. I'm going to treat this like a bad TV show and drop it before I spend hours a Week sitting there raging at something that's not going to change.

I'll always support Juve and it's the only club I can physically give a rats ass about, but if they're not entertaining me one bit, and our coach isn't particularly worried about our 'style' of play then all I can do is spend my evenings doing something I enjoy. Will more or less skip the rest of this season unless I have nothing at all going on. I actually enjoyed my History coursework more than the Lyon game last night Laughing

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:55 pm

One thing I have clear is that we rely too much on Marchisio and Dybala. Those two are responsible for too much for us. I really hope we finally get Berardi next season (and Litch will of course leave), then we'd have better options for creating. Since Litch will be gone I'd make Cuadrado our starter for the RWB in 3-5-2 and Alves for a back 4.

Then we could do the same we are doing now

Higuain - Dybala

Sandro - Pjanic - Marchisio - X - Cuadrado

Chiellini - Bonucci - Barzagli

then when Dybala needs a rest or we wanna switch it up

Pjaca - Higuain - Berardi

Pjanic - Marchisio - X

Sandro - Chiellini - Bonucci - Alves

The "X" being Khedira if he wakes up or a better player.

Of course unless Berardi goes to Inter and gives me a heart attack.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Andrew on Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:25 pm

Hypothetically, which players would be ideal for you guys in a double pivot in a 3-4-3 ?

Perhaps Marchisio - Khedira Chelsea style ? I'm thinking Pjanic - Marchisio would be too soft, actually anything with Pjanic in it is too soft.


Pjaca - Higuain - Dybala

Alex Sandro - Marchisio - Khedira - Cuadrado

Chiellini - Bonucci - Barzagli

Buffon
hmm hmm scratch scratch

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:36 pm

Marchisio-Sturaro

Cuadrado, Sandro, Dybala, Pjaca and Marchisio are more than enough creativity. We'd need running. Sturaro is the only really physical midfielder we have.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by dronte on Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:28 pm

But he is really Padoin v2.0 Very Happy

https://media.giphy.com/media/xvXxG523vwhpu/giphy.gif

How much we miss Vidal now though..

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by DeviAngel on Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:17 pm

I still have faith in Sturaro beside that stupid move he was pretty solid + he is 23 guys cut him some slack

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by lucianomoggi on Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:32 am

Andrew_p wrote:Hypothetically, which players would be ideal for you guys in a double pivot in a 3-4-3 ?

Perhaps Marchisio - Khedira Chelsea style ? I'm thinking Pjanic - Marchisio would be too soft, actually anything with Pjanic in it is too soft.


Pjaca - Higuain - Dybala

Alex Sandro - Marchisio - Khedira - Cuadrado

Chiellini - Bonucci - Barzagli

Buffon
hmm hmm scratch scratch



i would dream to see pjaca integrated on the team,
my idea would be to use pjaca somehow like peryera

not with expectation to make assists and leadership but with expectation of supporting dybala, to score goals and make runs around, peryera like

dybala to be the advanced playmaker (del piero like)
with higuain and pjaca around him supporting to attack, looking for the goal,


pjaca to move around depending the situation lfw, am, ss, cf,

is that possible? absolutely


however, there is a problem, juventus like to also have the option to defend with 8 men when necessary and there for pjaca, has to step back to support the defense something like peryera, nedved, to add energy around

that i believe could possible work, but i dont know i think coach doesnt want to hurry with these kinds of decisions he is giving new players time to develop gradually













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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by DeviAngel on Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:19 am

4-3-2-1 would be a good formation for us me thinks Smile

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by dronte on Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:02 am

@DeviAngel wrote:I still have faith in Sturaro beside that stupid move he was pretty solid + he is 23 guys cut him some slack

I'm not saying he is a terrible player or anything. He is just really average, in line with Giaccherini, Padoin, Pepe and friends. Gives everything for the team but definitely not first team material.

He was supossed to be at the end of our bench line (which is adequate for him). But this just shows how much we lack quality in midfield. And honestly I still rate Lemina much higher in both technical and physical sense not counting his terrible season start.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:33 am

Padoin has much much worse. Giaccherini, Pepe and Sturaro all have some talent to them. Padoin was just basically a good listener.

Leimna had more chances and should take the bench for a while. Let Sturaro give it a try, if he also fails then swap him for Lemina again and we'll keep at it.

Lemina has a better pass than Sturaro no doubt. The problem I have with him is that he is not the player we need, unless he improves a LOT. All he has shown is to be a poor man's Khedira. And tbh Khedira is also not the player we need, but unlike Lemina he has enough quality to still succeed.

I'm sure we are all betting on Pjanic to come through, plus Marchisio is a sure starter. With those two starting we are in dire need of a physical midfielder, a runner. Arturo Vidal. I don't think that Sturaro is the new De Rossi or anywhere near him, but he is our best bet at a runner in midfield.

I know not many rate Parolo, and we shouldn't sign him, but he is an example of a kind of player that would be a better fit than a Khedira/Lemina type. Basically what I think Sturaro will become. Witsel maybe could do it. Kante could do it too.

Particularly Atalanta's Franck Kessie. We should be all over him like we did with Dybala. 19 yo and he looks like a new Vidal. Sadly if he comes, its not until the summer. There will be tons of competition to sign him.
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