Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by RealGunner on Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:44 pm

Attack is extremely disjointed. Iwobi looks good though

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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by urbaNRoots on Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:47 pm

Didn't know Bertrand is 27(!). He's become a fantastic LB but maybe too late for a big team move.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by EL Patron on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:00 pm

I remember people were comparing Jenkinson to Debuchy earlier this season. On this evidence, Debuchy has a Jenkinson in both legs ffs rofl
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by RealGunner on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:01 pm

Arguably one of the worst performance this season.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by Sri on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:18 pm

Glad that unbeaten streak nonsense is finally ending.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by EL Patron on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:34 pm

Ramsey with his shots from impossible angles Laughing

Gibbo is so average, hasn't improved one bit.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by RealGunner on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:40 pm

Disgusting performance lmao

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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by Jay29 on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:43 pm

This is embarrassing. Wish I could just numb myself to it but I can't. I feel ashamed watching us play like this, especially knowing it won't just be a one-off.

Southampton made six changes and could have beat us by five or more goals. At the Emirates. It's not even the fault of the backline most of the time, but they have such shit protection in front of them.

Just looks at us ffs. Coquelin playing as an 8, Xhaka's making runs into the right channel, Iwobi moving over the right flank - just what is going on? No wonder our left hand side gets *bleep* every game. Our left sided player isn't even there. Southampton barely had to work at the back because we just packed the middle and hoped for the best. There's no plan of attack out there.

Nevermind the changes. If there was a system in place the changes wouldn't have such a profound effect.

A bad defeat was coming and this was it. The season's going on a predictable path again - out the cup early, runner-up in our CL group and a shit November to curtail our title attempt that'll probably be over in March.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by RealGunner on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:08 pm

"ElNennyM was sick before the game and I could see after 10 minutes that he wasn't right. He has no injury but he has a stomach problem"
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by EL Patron on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:16 pm

I am more concerned about the gap in quality between the first team and the second string. Our Depth isn't all that good to be honest, we are a couple of injuries from fielding the likes of Jenkinson, Gabriel and Gibbo who are very average.

I am struggling to see where Ramsey fits in our team at the moment. He is not good enough to play as a ten here and he is not disciplined in enough to play in a pair in midfield. His shots from impossible angles are irritating as well. Only positives tonights were Perez, Iwobi and maybe Holding. El Nenny needs to stop playing within himself, it's as if he refuses to make a forward pass Laughing
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by Jay29 on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:19 pm

Elneny had a bug, and Gabriel actually played well. I don't fault them for anything tonight.

Ramsey was awful, though. He makes poor decisions in the final third and plays selfishly.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by RealGunner on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:24 pm

Might be done with Ramsey.

Back to Team Wilshere

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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by Unique on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:28 pm

@RealGunner wrote:Might be done with Ramsey.

Back to Team Wilshere

proper turn coat you. Very Happy

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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by EL Patron on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:47 pm

Apart from Jack and Theo, the rest of the Brits are so average that it's painful to watch. Even the likes of Song and Denilson weren't this bad rofl
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by RealGunner on Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:00 pm

Seems the case. Let's be honest, we have a pretty shit youth academy lol. Our best youth players are the ones we took from other clubs.

Iwobi has promise though so let's hope he continues his good career. Looked great today.

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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by Sri on Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:13 am

@Jay29 wrote: If there was a system in place the changes wouldn't have such a profound effect.


This.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by Jay29 on Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:12 am

The thing about depth is, is that there are very few teams in the world who can make 10 changes to a team and look just as good. Depth isn't meant to be used in that way. It's meant to be used sparingly, where two or three players come into the team at a time when they're needed.

That's why I don't judge our depth based on these games. We're putting out players who haven't played much and haven't played much together. There's always going to be some below par performances in those instances.

In any case, the fact that Jenkinson was hauled off after 60 minutes and Debuchy played over him last weekend tells me his Arsenal career is done. I wouldn't be surprised if Gabriel played right back until Bellerin is fit again.

Also, Wenger admitted we could have played for another two hours and still not have scored, which is concerning. Our chance creation this past month has been very low.


Last edited by Jay29 on Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by Sri on Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:18 am

Fact remains that we have not had even this level of depth in over 15 years.

Heck, we have much better depth than most other teams in Europe at this point.

Let's not shift blame away from the manager here, while he's clearly been failing all season, if not for years now.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by Da Gunner on Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:14 am

A few points from my side:

1/ The tactics employed means there is no structure to the team. Even if it is the first team, we don't maintain any structure and it is only the individual brilliance of the first teamers such as Sanchez, Oezil and Koscielny that helps us win games. We seem to be confusing fluidity with lacking structure. Fluidity, I believe, is players swapping positions while still maintaining the requisite structure. The most basic would be to form passing triangles which ensures there are not much gaps, instead all our players seem to be doing is forming straight lines, ensuring there is zero penetration. This problem exists even in the first team.

2/ For all that depth we've been talking about, it didn't seem to show on the pitch. Not expecting us to wallop Soton, but I'd have expected us to put up a fight at least. Soton too had made a few changes but they seemed to have quality all around the pitch.

3/ Jenko is done. His crosses are worse than that of a new convert. Horribly bad. Please start a new thread for searching good RBs. At this point, I'll probably prefer Gabriel, Niles or even Chambo as RB.

4/ Gabriel and Holding can become good CBs, if given the right kind of training, IMO. Gabriel must improve his composure a lot.  

5/ Jeff needs to improve a lot if he wants to have a go at the first team. I know people are not gonna agree with me and feel this is harsh, but we frequently see people of his age showing much more composure and match awareness (Recce Oxford vs Arsenal comes to mind).

6/ Our youth academy sucks balls. There's hardly any genuinely exciting talent who's ready to play first team footy. The likes of Chelsea and Liverpool, seem to be having exciting talents ready to make the step up to the first team soon and yet we've no players who can genuinely step up and make a difference. Despite having state-of-the art facilities, emphasis on youth and a very recent youth setup rejig.

7/ Seems like AW has forbid Perez from shooting after he scored 2 vs. Forest. AW must've said Perez "Shooting is for pussies, passing makes you a real man". He never seems to want to shoot. Both the Cup games are a testament to this.

8/ Xhaka showed more attacking intent than Ramsey IMO. Ramsey doesn't seem to fit into any of the roles here. If he can improve his discipline he can probably play the role he played vs. PSG.

9/ Sorry for the long post. I was awake till wee hours to see this horrendous performance.

/rant

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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by Jay29 on Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:52 pm

1.The tactics employed means there is no structure to the team. Even if it is the first team, we don't maintain any structure and it is only the individual brilliance of the first teamers such as Sanchez, Oezil and Koscielny that helps us win games. We seem to be confusing fluidity with lacking structure. Fluidity, I believe, is players swapping positions while still maintaining the requisite structure. The most basic would be to form passing triangles which ensures there are not much gaps, instead all our players seem to be doing is forming straight lines, ensuring there is zero penetration. This problem exists even in the first team.

Good point here. I actually took a few screenshots to demonstrate this.

Haven't done one of these in a while, but I have an unexpected amount of free time today. I've paid particular attention to the reactions of our players during these.

------------------------------------

Spoiler:


Iwobi receives the ball on the left and cuts inside onto his right foot. Iwobi immediately looks for a forward pass between Southampton's right winger and right-sided central midfielder, but Ramsey, the closest to that open space, makes a run in behind and wants the ball over the top - a much more difficult pass in the circumstances. Iwobi holds out his hands asking where his forward option is. His only other choice, and the one he goes with, is Elneny. Coquelin, meanwhile, stands in a space where he's inaccessible to the passer, and would have been better off dropping back to give Iwobi another passing option.



The play develops with Iwobi giving it to Elneny. Elneny faces a large space between Shane Long and the Southampton midfield, yet has no passing options. This is the space Coquelin should have been in a second ago. Jeff, on the right, doesn't move into the space either. Ramsey, meanwhile, is detached completely, having made the earlier forward run. A player like Wilshere or Cazorla would probably look to carry the ball into the space, but Elneny opts for the backwards pass.



Now Gabriel has it but immediately asks where his options are because he has nothing in front of him. Jeff moves up the pitch to draw the Southampton midfield with him, but Coquelin continued to move from side-to-side when he should be dropping short to get on the ball. Unable to return the ball to Elneny due to Southampton players blocking the passing lane, Gabriel can only go backwards/sideways to the keeper or Holding, or progress up the field with the ball. Either way, the attack comes to nothing.



Ramsey has found some space towards the left touchline and receives the ball. Immediately, he has two progressive options: the ball down the outside to Gibbs, or the ball inside to Iwobi. However, Ramsey looks for a ball into the penalty area, and delays the pass.



He still has options. Inside to Iwobi, who's taken up a really good position between the lines, or back to Coquelin or Elneny. Elneny is another good option, as he can then play the ball in the gap in Southampton's midfield. Ramsey takes too long to make a decision and gives it to Coquelin. The ball is switched to Jenkinson on the right and the attack comes to nothing.



This is extremely poor positioning from Arsenal. Iwobi, the LW, drops deep the receive the ball on the halfway line, because the double pivot of Coquelin and Elneny are ahead of him. This should be the other way around. Iwobi is rightfully frustrated that all he can do is going backwards to the centre backs, while the two central midfielders stand in a straight line, inaccessible to him as options. All the while, Coquelin points and shouts while standing in a completely useless position.



Elneny is a "safe" player and that's best illustrated here. Arsenal are narrow but there are options - a pass into Iwobi, and a pass into Lucas. Both are risky passes, in as much as that Southampton are close to the passing lanes. However, players such as Cazorla and Xhaka have the ability to pull these passes off. Elneny doesn't take the chance and plays the safe sideways pass. Check out the reaction from Lucas after this.



Elneny signals to Lucas that he either didn't see him or didn't get a shout. As the attacks results in a turnover from Holding, Lucas gestures back to Elneny that he could have played it into this feet, and cuts a frustrated figure.



Lucas isn't exactly exempt, though. In this instance, with Jeff having vacated the right hand side, Lucas needed to make a run into that space to give Jenkinson a forward option. He remains static, forcing Jenkinson to go back inside. Coincidentally, Giroud does the same thing, and our right back ending up without an option in these positions is a common occurrence.



Jenkinson lacks the confidence to play a difficult pass inside to Iwobi - Bellerin, perhaps, would have attempted it. The rest of Arsenal's attack stand in a line, not providing an option for Jenkinson, so Jenkinson passes all the way back to the centre backs and the attack is wasted.



And just to sum up Arsenal's first half, here's Iwobi asking for some movement, while the right winger stands in front of him, and Coquelin asks for the ball over the top.

Yes, Coquelin making a run and wanting the ball over the top.

I can look at the 2nd half as well if people want me to.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

Post by Da Gunner on Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:31 pm

@Jay29 wrote:
1.The tactics employed means there is no structure to the team. Even if it is the first team, we don't maintain any structure and it is only the individual brilliance of the first teamers such as Sanchez, Oezil and Koscielny that helps us win games. We seem to be confusing fluidity with lacking structure. Fluidity, I believe, is players swapping positions while still maintaining the requisite structure. The most basic would be to form passing triangles which ensures there are not much gaps, instead all our players seem to be doing is forming straight lines, ensuring there is zero penetration. This problem exists even in the first team.

Good point here. I actually took a few screenshots to demonstrate this.

Haven't done one of these in a while, but I have an unexpected amount of free time today. I've paid particular attention to the reactions of our players during these.

------------------------------------

Spoiler:


Iwobi receives the ball on the left and cuts inside onto his right foot. Iwobi immediately looks for a forward pass between Southampton's right winger and right-sided central midfielder, but Ramsey, the closest to that open space, makes a run in behind and wants the ball over the top - a much more difficult pass in the circumstances. Iwobi holds out his hands asking where his forward option is. His only other choice, and the one he goes with, is Elneny. Coquelin, meanwhile, stands in a space where he's inaccessible to the passer, and would have been better off dropping back to give Iwobi another passing option.



The play develops with Iwobi giving it to Elneny. Elneny faces a large space between Shane Long and the Southampton midfield, yet has no passing options. This is the space Coquelin should have been in a second ago. Jeff, on the right, doesn't move into the space either. Ramsey, meanwhile, is detached completely, having made the earlier forward run. A player like Wilshere or Cazorla would probably look to carry the ball into the space, but Elneny opts for the backwards pass.



Now Gabriel has it but immediately asks where his options are because he has nothing in front of him. Jeff moves up the pitch to draw the Southampton midfield with him, but Coquelin continued to move from side-to-side when he should be dropping short to get on the ball. Unable to return the ball to Elneny due to Southampton players blocking the passing lane, Gabriel can only go backwards/sideways to the keeper or Holding, or progress up the field with the ball. Either way, the attack comes to nothing.



Ramsey has found some space towards the left touchline and receives the ball. Immediately, he has two progressive options: the ball down the outside to Gibbs, or the ball inside to Iwobi. However, Ramsey looks for a ball into the penalty area, and delays the pass.



He still has options. Inside to Iwobi, who's taken up a really good position between the lines, or back to Coquelin or Elneny. Elneny is another good option, as he can then play the ball in the gap in Southampton's midfield. Ramsey takes too long to make a decision and gives it to Coquelin. The ball is switched to Jenkinson on the right and the attack comes to nothing.



This is extremely poor positioning from Arsenal. Iwobi, the LW, drops deep the receive the ball on the halfway line, because the double pivot of Coquelin and Elneny are ahead of him. This should be the other way around. Iwobi is rightfully frustrated that all he can do is going backwards to the centre backs, while the two central midfielders stand in a straight line, inaccessible to him as options. All the while, Coquelin points and shouts while standing in a completely useless position.



Elneny is a "safe" player and that's best illustrated here. Arsenal are narrow but there are options - a pass into Iwobi, and a pass into Lucas. Both are risky passes, in as much as that Southampton are close to the passing lanes. However, players such as Cazorla and Xhaka have the ability to pull these passes off. Elneny doesn't take the chance and plays the safe sideways pass. Check out the reaction from Lucas after this.



Elneny signals to Lucas that he either didn't see him or didn't get a shout. As the attacks results in a turnover from Holding, Lucas gestures back to Elneny that he could have played it into this feet, and cuts a frustrated figure.



Lucas isn't exactly exempt, though. In this instance, with Jeff having vacated the right hand side, Lucas needed to make a run into that space to give Jenkinson a forward option. He remains static, forcing Jenkinson to go back inside. Coincidentally, Giroud does the same thing, and our right back ending up without an option in these positions is a common occurrence.



Jenkinson lacks the confidence to play a difficult pass inside to Iwobi - Bellerin, perhaps, would have attempted it. The rest of Arsenal's attack stand in a line, not providing an option for Jenkinson, so Jenkinson passes all the way back to the centre backs and the attack is wasted.



And just to sum up Arsenal's first half, here's Iwobi asking for some movement, while the right winger stands in front of him, and Coquelin asks for the ball over the top.

Yes, Coquelin making a run and wanting the ball over the top.

I can look at the 2nd half as well if people want me to.


You've hit the nail on its head. This what my first point talks about. You don't even need screenies to realize this, it can be seen live. We so much instances of players questioning others about movement up front, ultimately exasperating and passing it sideways/back.

In all the screenies posted above, you can see had the vacant areas you'd marked been occupied by a player, we'd have those passing triangles. Every one of those situations, we should've created triangles.

I don't understand what's the idea of forming straight horinzontal/vertical lines, whereby you missout out on a passing lane and occupy someone else's as well.

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Re: Arsenal Vs Southampton [COC QF]

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