Ultimate question: How on earth does Messi and Ronaldo even have thesame Balon D'or wins?

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Post by Socur Toxanarosa Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:47 pm

Blue Barrett wrote:Trophies DO matter. Which is something @Socur Toxanarosa doesn't seem to understand as he want Messi to be given the award every year until he retires apparently.


This trophy nonsense has to stop, we are rewarding players, not teams, the CONTEXT must be analyzed, if the player was crucial for his team, winning championships, better, but last year Cristiano Ronaldo won the CL and Euro being bad/average in both competitions, why the *bleep* does he deserve the credits?

Why should he win over Messi when the latter won the league and the cup actually being the best performer, Copa America runner up CARRYING Argentina and is overall a much better player? But no, Eder goal clearly makes Cristiano Ronaldo the best player of the season rofl

Bankz wrote:@toxanarosa my point exactly. If those guys did it without any controversy, why in the world has that changed to a goal scoring contest? When with or without goals, messi has been far and away the superior player for the past 8 years.


It's not even a goal scoring contest, it's a straight up popularity contest, CR could score half the goals and would win anyway just by being the biggest name for Real Madrid and Portugal.

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Post by rincon Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:30 pm

Whats with the blind hate on the Kommander? how the hell was he bad/average for his teams winning CL/EC last year??

He scored 16 goals for Madrid in the CL ffs.  That's the second most of any player ever, the first one being himself 3 years ago. Add 4 assists to that.

Bad/average in CL when the man is the all time top scorer and holds both 1st and 2nd places for the highest scoring seasons...

For Portugal he chipped in 3 goals and 3 assists too.
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Post by Perucho21 Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:45 pm

Messi is head and shoulders better but i reckon CR stil has a better chance at the Ballon this season.

Still in the race for LL with a game in hand, CL semis and the Confed cup.

Never been a huge of ronaldo but just stating my opinion
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Post by McAgger Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:47 pm

Confed Cup will mean nothing. Even La Liga won't mean anything. It's about CL. If Madrid don't win CL, Ronaldo's stats are way worse off this season compared to his previous years so it won't help him. Messi on the other hand is statistically as good as always. Just the Copa win will do for him if CR doesn't have CL to back his claim.
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Post by Doc Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:44 pm

Just a side note, Ronaldinho won Ballon d'Or in 2005 and not 2004. That was Shevchenko who finished top scorer for Milan in Serie A (when it mattered) and also won Serie A too (when it mattered).

Dinho won it in 05 for his stellar campaign in La Liga to which Barcelona won it for the first time since, I don't know, 1999?! Anyway, trophies are not the be all and end all when it comes to the Ballon d'Or but it really does help. A lot.

Dinho won FIFA World Player of the year in 2004 btw.
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Post by Bankz Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:38 pm

Thats exactly the point. How the hell did El fenomeno and dinho win the fifa world player of the year in 96 and 2004 then without any trophies if not for being outrightly superior? Something that would never happen now, otherwise messi would win it every year because being head and shoulders above everyone also applies to him.
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Post by Blue Barrett Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:04 pm

Socur Toxanarosa wrote:
Blue Barrett wrote:Trophies DO matter. Which is something @Socur Toxanarosa doesn't seem to understand as he want Messi to be given the award every year until he retires apparently.


This trophy nonsense has to stop, we are rewarding players, not teams, the CONTEXT must be analyzed, if the player was crucial for his team, winning championships, better, but last year Cristiano Ronaldo won the CL and Euro being bad/average in both competitions, why the *bleep* does he deserve the credits?

Why should he win over Messi when the latter won the league and the cup actually being the best performer, Copa America runner up CARRYING Argentina and is overall a much better player? But no, Eder goal clearly makes Cristiano Ronaldo the best player of the season rofl

The fact that you actually seriously think Ronaldo wasn't the best performing player for Madrid and Portugal is just proof that you're a clueless fanboy just looking to talk nonsense about him unnecessarily. There's no need to debate further with you. I'm certainly not going to wash that fanboy mentality away.

It's actually possible to appreciate both Messi and Ronaldo, you know. It's not impossible. You should try it some time.
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Post by titosantill Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:16 pm

there is no set criteria for how anyone wins this. i see posters on both sides of the fence try to map out a standard for which it is graded and use previous winners or years as case studies. news flash, the ballon d'or, the fifa world footballer of the year, not even the old ucl awards which was divided between best forward, midfielder, defender and goalie have ever had set standards

the only things that have set standards are maybe top scorer awards and the european golden shoe which is also a top scorer award based on coefficients. any of these other awards are "flavor of the month" awards and they've always been that way. sometimes they get it right sometimes they get it wrong......regardless there will always be a debate as to why someone else didn't get it and a rebuttal as to why the person who got it, got it

trophies will matter one year, the next year it won't, the next year it will be maybe a big game that woos the media, the next year it will be a tournament performance, the next year it will be something new. one thing i'll give them benefit of doubt for is that, at least its not a situation where a heskey or an above average player is getting nominated. they do well on their last 3, 4 or 5 picks....but for the winner there has NEVER been a standard criteria, so we can stop trying to figure out justifications
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Post by futbol Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:37 am

Why do people even care? Do you also lose sleep about Titanic winning more Oscars than The Godfather Part 1 and Part 2 together?

You can't go 3 games in a row these days without children on the Internet shitting their pants how their overpaid multi-million dollar celebrity idol might come 2nd in that self-adulation ceremony at the end of the year.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:02 am

Trophy nonsense needs to stop lol, it's the very reason you play the game.

It's absolutely what players should be judged on, or the very least the games that decide those trophies.

It's why people always bring up Sneijder in 2010, he was meh most of the season but great against Bayern, Barca and Chelsea on route to a treble.

I still have others i prefer for that season but it's an example of why team success and your performances leading to said team success should absolutely matter otherwise it just becomes about stats which is sad to begin with.

But sadly it's the latter.
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Post by guest_07 Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:32 am

i'm no longer interested in this award.

this award should be named as "best player in the champion team"

then, there will be no argument after this Laughing

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Post by Thimmy Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:43 am

Maybe it should be re-named to "best player according to a Brazilian, Chelsea fan". That way, they could just give it to Messi every year until he retires, and people would stop attempting to scrutinize those journalists for their supposed lack of merit, bias, corruption, w/e. Also, I'm sure that would make BORUSSIA!!!! really happy hmm
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Post by Socur Toxanarosa Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:22 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Trophy nonsense needs to stop lol, it's the very reason you play the game.


The trophy itself is meaningless, that's what i meant, you must analyse the player in the competition, winning or not, like you did with Sneijder, and, if his efforts helped winning the thing, better of course.

Thimmy wrote:Maybe it should be re-named to "best player according to a Brazilian, Chelsea fan".


Your point being...? hmm
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Post by farfan Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:43 am

I'd rather have this current system than the one that gave Owen the award for "leading" his team to a homeless man's treble.
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Post by Kebab Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:56 am

Football is a team game, not tennis or golf.
Judging by trophy is not always correct. because you depend on your team mate to win a trophy. Eder scores, Higuain misses..result is Ronaldo is best player.
Lets say Messi sits on the bench, Higuain scores winning goal and Eder flops, then by the logic Messi automatically becomes the best player of the year?
This award should be named "Most popular player from trophy winning team"
True best player award should be analyzed each game. Give points each game and collect points at the end. points in important matches should be higher. This way you can define the true best player
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Post by Blue Barrett Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:41 pm

Socur Toxanarosa wrote:
Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Trophy nonsense needs to stop lol, it's the very reason you play the game.


The trophy itself is meaningless, that's what i meant, you must analyse the player in the competition, winning or not, like you did with Sneijder, and, if his efforts helped winning the thing, better of course.

Think you're watching the wrong sport. What you really need to watch is golf or tennis. At least that way you can properly focus on individuals and individuals alone the way you so passionately want to.

I don't give a damn if you've scored 40 in the season. If there's another fella who's got 30 AND won major trophies for his team while you didn't, he deserves it over you. Unless you scored 70. If that's too hard for you to get then aye, more power to you! Carry on.
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Post by Socur Toxanarosa Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:55 pm

Blue Barrett wrote:I don't give a damn if you've scored 40 in the season. If there's another fella who's got 30 AND won major trophies for his team while you didn't, he deserves it over you. Unless you scored 70. If that's too hard for you to get then aye, more power to you! Carry on.


So, by your logic, if these 2 players face each other in a CL final and the match ends in a draw, the outcome of a *bleep* penalty shootout will decide who was the best player of the season? Man, that's beyond stupid. And comparing players only by goals scored is stupid too.
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Post by Blue Barrett Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:59 pm

Socur Toxanarosa wrote:
Blue Barrett wrote:I don't give a damn if you've scored 40 in the season. If there's another fella who's got 30 AND won major trophies for his team while you didn't, he deserves it over you. Unless you scored 70. If that's too hard for you to get then aye, more power to you! Carry on.


So, by your logic, if these 2 players face each other in a CL final and the match ends in a draw, the outcome of a *bleep* penalty shootout will decide who was the best player of the season? Man, that's beyond stupid. And comparing players only by goals scored is stupid too.

You're the one who made that beyond stupid scenario up, not me.

No one's comparing players on goals scored only or players like Cavani and Higuain would be in the running for ballon d'Or every year.

But no one's going to give you a ballon d'Or based on some obscure data either. Goals matter. Fully expect you to reply with something like "but why do you think only goals matter" as if that's what I said. Laughing
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Post by Socur Toxanarosa Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:03 pm

Blue Barrett wrote:You're the one who made that beyond stupid scenario up, not me.

No one's comparing players on goals scored only or players like Cavani and Higuain would be in the running for ballon d'Or every year.

But no one's going to give you a ballon d'Or based on some obscure data either. Goals matter. Fully expect you to reply with something like "but why do you think only goals matter" as if that's what I said. Laughing


Alright, but answer the main question of my post.
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Post by Blue Barrett Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:07 pm

Why should I answer a question that's got nothing to do with what's being discussed? How is it relevant to the discussion? Wasn't Ronaldo's CL win in 2008 part of why he won WFOY over Messi? Wasn't it won on penalties? Does that make the CL win less valid? Since when did penalties stop being part of football? Smh.
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Post by Socur Toxanarosa Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:16 pm

Blue Barrett wrote:Why should I answer a question that's got nothing to do with what's being discussed? How is it relevant to the discussion? Wasn't Ronaldo's CL win in 2008 part of why he won WFOY over Messi? Wasn't it won on penalties? Does that make the CL win less valid? Since when did penalties stop being part of football? Smh.


Let's imagine that Terry scored his penalty and Chelsea won one more game in the PL that year, Manchester United wouldn't have won shit, and, by your logic, the award should have gone to Messi or a Chelsea player maybe, even though nothing have changed about their performances in this scenario, do you understand now how failed is your logic?
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Post by Blue Barrett Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:28 pm

Socur Toxanarosa wrote:
Blue Barrett wrote:Why should I answer a question that's got nothing to do with what's being discussed? How is it relevant to the discussion? Wasn't Ronaldo's CL win in 2008 part of why he won WFOY over Messi? Wasn't it won on penalties? Does that make the CL win less valid? Since when did penalties stop being part of football? Smh.


Let's imagine that Terry scored his penalty and Chelsea won one more game in the PL that year, Manchester United wouldn't have won shit, and, by your logic, the award should have gone to Messi or a Chelsea player maybe, even though nothing have changed about their performances in this scenario, do you understand now how failed is your logic?

No, that is YOUR logic. I never said it would have gone to a Chelsea player or even Messi. I said it was PART of why he won, not THE sole reason he won. United still won the league that year while Barca went trophyless. It was part of why Rijkaard was let go and Guardiola was appointed. So no, Ronaldo would still have won even if it would have been a tighter contest. The CL win simply ended the debate.

Why do you like to take a tiny part of an argument and zero in on it until you've made a completely different point? Laughing
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Post by Socur Toxanarosa Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:39 pm

Blue Barrett wrote:No, that is YOUR logic. I never said it would have gone to a Chelsea player or even Messi. I said it was PART of why he won, not THE sole reason he won. United still won the league that year while Barca went trophyless. It was part of why Rijkaard was let go and Guardiola was appointed. So no, Ronaldo would still have won even if it would have been a tighter contest. The CL win simply ended the debate.

Why do you like to take a tiny part of an argument and zero in on it until you've made a completely different point? Laughing


No man, i made the scenario but using your criteria, your logic. When you say it would've been a tighter contest, you admit that your logic is flawed, why should it be tighter if nothing changed about how they performed?
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Post by Blue Barrett Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:52 pm

Socur Toxanarosa wrote:
Blue Barrett wrote:No, that is YOUR logic. I never said it would have gone to a Chelsea player or even Messi. I said it was PART of why he won, not THE sole reason he won. United still won the league that year while Barca went trophyless. It was part of why Rijkaard was let go and Guardiola was appointed. So no, Ronaldo would still have won even if it would have been a tighter contest. The CL win simply ended the debate.

Why do you like to take a tiny part of an argument and zero in on it until you've made a completely different point? Laughing


No man, i made the scenario but using your criteria, your logic. When you say it would've been a tighter contest, you admit that your logic is flawed, why should it be tighter if nothing changed about how they performed?

Errr.....because you're taking out the massive factor of the number 1 trophy in club football maybe???

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Give it up fam.
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Post by Socur Toxanarosa Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:21 pm

Blue Barrett wrote:Errr.....because you're taking out the massive factor of the number 1 trophy in club football maybe???

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Give it up fam.


So a penalty shootout is a major factor to decide who was the best player of the season, wonderful banana

Yes, i give up indeed.
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Post by Blue Barrett Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:10 pm

Socur Toxanarosa wrote:
Blue Barrett wrote:Errr.....because you're taking out the massive factor of the number 1 trophy in club football maybe???

Ultimate question: How on earth does Messi and Ronaldo even have thesame Balon D'or wins? - Page 3 Giphy

Give it up fam.


So a penalty shootout is a major factor to decide who was the best player of the season, wonderful banana

Yes, i give up indeed.

Yeah because they all rolled out of bed and played penalties with blindfolded and rolled back into bed with a trophy. No group stages, no knock out matches, nothing.

I'm afraid you're being deliberately obtuse here Laughing but I understand. Some people don't like to admit when they're wrong. And you're a Messi fanboy too. So it's perfectly understandable.
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