Ernesto Valverde

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by Myesyats on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:15 pm

Agree. Valverde thinks that more midfielders on the pitch equals more control so he puts out his shitty 4-4-2 but it doesn't seem like the players know what to do once the game starts.

Roberto isn't even that bad a player but even though there were 4 midfielders on the pitch against Roma, there was nobody to pass to. It's either a back pass or a turnover, there's no triangles and no connection between the players and definitely no penetration in between the lines.

This has been the case all season long basically. We're very lucky to be so much ahead in the leauge.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by Reinhard on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:49 pm

@zenmaster wrote:How bad was the game. Barcelona defending at 2-0 , my god.
Worst game I've ever seen Barca play, including the Bayern drubbings/ PSG away. We looked like a bunch of COWARDS, practically Roma's bitches. At the heart of this is Valverde, and for this I'll never forgive him unless he redeems himself in a royal fashion.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:20 pm

@Reinhard wrote:
@zenmaster wrote:How bad was the game. Barcelona defending at 2-0 , my god.
Worst game I've ever seen Barca play, including the Bayern drubbings/ PSG away. We looked like a bunch of COWARDS, practically Roma's bitches. At the heart of this is Valverde, and for this I'll never forgive him unless he redeems himself in a royal fashion.

He completely screwed up with his cowardly tactics in the CL, but if he wins the double, I don't think your board will fire him.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by Reinhard on Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:38 pm

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:
@Reinhard wrote:
@zenmaster wrote:How bad was the game. Barcelona defending at 2-0 , my god.
Worst game I've ever seen Barca play, including the Bayern drubbings/ PSG away. We looked like a bunch of COWARDS, practically Roma's bitches. At the heart of this is Valverde, and for this I'll never forgive him unless he redeems himself in a royal fashion.

He completely screwed up with his cowardly tactics in the CL, but if he wins the double, I don't think your board will fire him.


Yes, he in all certainty won't be fired just yet. But as I said, not even a 38-0-0 league record will redeem him if he sticks to his tactics and gets chucked out of CL again.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by futbol on Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:51 pm

The worst thing is he did not react to the most obvious. 4-4-2 with no wingers against 3-5-2. This is like football history basics. 4-4-2 was beaten by 3-5-2.

Outnumbered upfront, outnumbered in the middle. Roma had a spare man everywhere until the final third.

Even until that point I can understand getting it wrong, we've been doing 4-4-2 all season. But at the LATEST at half-time a professional football coach has to SEE, he HAS to, what is wrong and change formations to 4-3-3 and bring on Dembélé for pace against the 3 man backline. Messi on the right, Dembélé on the left and Suarez in the middle and there is an automatic 1 vs. 1 situation for Barca in Roma's backline. Which in return will force Roma's sidebacks to stay back a lot more and they won't be able to be all over us like that. Instead he waited until 81 and then brought Gomes for Iniesta. My head explodes how a professional coach can do that.

I sometimes feel these coaches are nowhere near as knowledgable as we might think and only got there by luck or through their playing careers in the past and some random fans with a bit of brain could do it better.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:33 pm



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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by Myesyats on Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:42 pm

Unless he steps down himself he'll most likely continue next season. If I remember correctly the board wanted Tata Martino to stay after his poor season but he decided to leave after winning only the Super Cup in 13/14

I think Sarri would be a good fit for Barca considering the style of play he prefers, if we actually were to change manager


We play Valencia in a couple hours but I don't even feel like tuning in. Absoutely tired of this BS
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by alexjanosik on Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:41 pm

@Myesyats wrote:
@alexjanosik wrote:To summarize my long winded post. With Messi gone, we can go back to playing our way and get results in Europe.

Bunch of gibberish

Messi is the only thing keeping us at the top right now while the entire team is clearly mismanaged and there's also the fact that we've been unable to make the right transfer moves in order to strenghten the squad properly.

There's so many things that Valverde keeps doing wrong, for instance: keeps playing Gomes when he clearly doesn't have anything to offer, uses Paulinho as a deep lying playmaker whilst he clearly has no playmaking skills and is only useful behind the striker / making runs into the box.

I could go on and on. He has absolutely no clue what he's doing, there's no movement on the pitch, no 1-2 touch play, nothing at all.

But yes, Messi is the problem and we should sell his ass, eh?


There is no need to call my post gibberish man. Cant we have a proper discussion without resorting to that?

I didnt say Messi is the only problem, did I? Messi is not the only thing keeping us top right now. That is hyperbole. Valverde has built a conservative system. We are undefeated in the league. The defense and midfield deserves a lot of credit too. And the way you give Messi all the blame is precisely the problem. Some fans are quick to place all the credit at Messi's footsteps but when the team inevitably crashes out of the CL, then it is the team's fault and not Messi's. I think that is double standards.

I also dont think the squad has been mismanaged to the extent you are saying. We have a very good squad, clearly one of the best after Madrid. And certainly a better squad than the likes of Roma and Liverpool.

I am also not absolving Valverde of blame. He is a small team coach and needs to go. But Valverde is smart and realizes that it is difficult to build a team around Messi.

Can we play a positional game with Messi? Can we press like an elite team with Messi? Can we be defensively solid with Messi? How to the get the maximum out of the rest of the players with Messi?
These are questions that any coach who comes in will struggle with. I would like it if you answered those specific questions instead of calling my post gibberish. Please be specific with formation and tactics.

I dont think we can play positional game and press with Messi which is why I said we would be better off without Messi.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by BarcaLearning on Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:51 pm

Someone mentioned Busquets cant cover the whole DM role anymore which is a huge point this season and even last season, when our midfield was often overrun. With Iniesta and Busquets aging (and Iniesta gone soon), we really need to find replacement or midfielders who are good enough for the Barca system, which has always been 4-3-3. This means 3 midfielders that can boss and outplay oppositions who may even play 4 or 5 midfielders. Obviously Rakitic has been doing that for a long time and Messi on and off helps out in that and with Coutinho in there helping nowadays (Dembele clearly cant), but its never really been perfect fit.

I cant be sure exactly, but in the years past we always had Xavi and Iniesta, before that we has Deco, class midfielders how were able to do this. Today its Real's midfielders or even Bayern's midfielders who are that level. So I think this is something the board has to fix. Otherwise its hard to see how we can really compete going back to 4-3-3 which is what Barca should play. This season was just a temp fix formation, hopefully it wont last and we will fix this in the summer.
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by futbol_bill on Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:00 pm

I can't get over this Barca distain for your current coach.

Here Valverde was cruising along looking like he was going to repeat what both Luis Enrique and Pep had done (win all three trophies), has just one bad game and now he has to go?

First question should be with who and will the replacement be any better?

Do you really feel acting like Madrid and sacking your coach ever 2nd year is a good path to follow?

tbh -I think your problems are much more about player recruitment and retention than about coach selection!
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by eelir on Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:22 am

@futbol_bill wrote:I can't get over this Barca distain for your current coach.

Here Valverde was cruising along looking like he was going to repeat what both Luis Enrique and Pep had done (win all three trophies), has just one bad game and now he has to go?

First question should be with who and will the replacement be any better?

Do you really feel acting like Madrid and sacking your coach ever 2nd year is a good path to follow?

tbh -I think your problems are much more about player recruitment and retention than about coach selection!


Have you watched the first leg against Roma? The away leg against Chelsea? All those were bad games, and we had luck on our side. Since January I cant remember one good game we had against any decent opposition. I watch the team play, but if you put different shirts, I would never notice it is Barca playing. All that is fine for a team who lost a star player, and many getting old, but you do not defend like a second grade team no matter what against a team like Roma, especially when having one of the greatest attackers in the games history in your roster!
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by Myesyats on Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:30 am

Yeah, not just 'one' game, we played A LOT of bad games throughout the season

For example, we won against Valencia on the weekend but the game wasn't good at all and we were all over the place, would have drew/lost if not for Ter Stegen

If you didn't watch that game you probably went oh yeah they beat Valencia so they must've had a good game. Which isn't the case and proves that you shouldn't judge only by results
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by Myesyats on Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:49 pm

Sources close to Sport have been told what happened in the dressing room after Roma's loss.

One of the heavyweights was heard saying, "Mister, it was a game for physical players." Valverde listened, but was unable to answer. He was left distraught.



ffs Messi pls appoint someone with balls
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by FennecFox7 on Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:49 am

You need a lot more then balls to fix the squad. Just hear me out for a second. Think about the transfers you guys have done, the Neymar exit; etc. it's a miracle you guys are winning the league, this squad is overachieving with negative, but effective tactics. How about you guys give him one transfer window first.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by Myesyats on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:00 am

I know we need reinforcements, in midfield especially, but Valverde has clearly proven that he’s a small team coach. Easiest draw in CL since like 2013 and he threw it away like it was nothing... his subs and team selection is ridiculous.

It’s been a pretty shit season, I can’t see how he could continue after this. This is not how Barca should play, even others are shocked that we sit back instead of going at it, second half of the season has been pretty embarrassing to watch

I don’t believe Valverde is capable of change, he’s just simply not a big team coach

We might as well have no manager at all, no difference
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by futbol on Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:01 am

We won't get anyone better so he might just as well stay. Maybe he learned something in his first season.

No one can explain however why he rotated the whole starting XI away to Celta Vigo where we always struggle to rest for the Copa del Rey final but he hasn't rotated before for the CL. We played Leganes at home before Roma and he uses Pique for 90 minutes who is already struggling with his knee for weeks.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by futbol on Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:02 am

And someone still needs to explain to me the 81st minute Gomes for Iniesta sub against Roma.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by futbol_bill on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:27 pm

Junior, I can (I think).

Gomes looked ok at Valencia and likely Valverde recalls that. Both Madrid and Barca were after Gomes when he was looking ok.

What isn’t widely known or accepted is that some players can’t adjust to the pressures of playing for Barca or Madrid and they get exposed. Perhaps Valverde keeps thinking Gomes is the player he saw at Valencia.

I still can’t get over you guys after winning the liga in November, having such a long unbeaten stretch, likely winning copa this weekend and looking like a favourite to win CL, go on and on about dumping coach after losing one important game. Sure there have been questionable tactics and bad games during this time frame, but other than that one game the results were there. And I think you all acknowledge that the real problem has been the club’s recruitment over the past 3 or 4 years. I think you would be better off directing your disappointment at the recruitment director and your board!
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by eelir on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:43 pm

@futbol_bill wrote:Junior, I can (I think).

Gomes looked ok at Valencia and likely Valverde recalls that. Both Madrid and Barca were after Gomes when he was looking ok.

What isn’t widely known or accepted is that some players can’t adjust to the pressures of playing for Barca or Madrid and they get exposed. Perhaps Valverde keeps thinking Gomes is the player he saw at Valencia.

I still can’t get over you guys after winning the liga in November, having such a long unbeaten stretch, likely winning copa this weekend and looking like a favourite to win CL, go on and on about dumping coach after losing one important game. Sure there have been questionable tactics and bad games during this time frame, but other than that one game the results were there. And I think you all acknowledge that the real problem has been the club’s recruitment over the past 3 or 4 years. I think you would be better off directing your disappointment at the recruitment director and your board!


It is all about the way we lost. If we lost throwing punches everyone would be fine.
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by The Franchise on Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:24 pm

Mixed views.

In terms of his position, its clear he will continue next season and rightly so. Overall one game has cost him his reputation to some degree.

But I will say he has put himself under great pressure with that one game. I didnt expect to win the CL but to lose to this Roma side the way we lost, unacceptable in every way.

I won't go into the faults now in selection, tactics and mentally the team had in that 2nd leg but losing in that way will put him under a much closer microscope for next season than it would have been should we have won or even lost in a respectable way. No doubt. Anything but high-level performances and/or results and its the 2nd season then it would be the end I guess.

On one hand I will say only having Semedo, Dembele (coming off no preseason and subsequent injury) and Paulinho as tangible additions haven't helped. I would argue he has in some ways misused all 3 quite badly and not understood fully what their value is, but none the less those are just 2 players to a squad which needs a lot more. Coutinho obviously couldn't be used in the CL and the league had been wrapped up before his arrival, so really his signing is just a luxury and next season is where expectations will come for him and Valverde's use of him.

I read alot of talk and dislike for his 442 which I understand. But also I have some sympathy for him because I think defensively is the only workable formation which features Messi and Suarez together. I also think its the only workable formation defensively should Griezmann come for example.

Playing 433 will always give the same issue of what will you do about Messi defensively? He shouldnt and wouldnt be given an job which involves getting behind the ball during the defensive phase, and just as obviously he isnt going to be spending much focus on trying to pressure fullbacks and centerbacks into errors. Ultimately any version of 433 against a strong opponant will become a 442 in the defensive phase.

Check any team that plays 433 nowadays, you will see none of them which features 2 players without a defensive responsibility of getting behind the ball. 443 now means 10 players behind the ball if your without possession.

In attack, the question we ask is do we have to still remain in a 442? You get some variation on the flanks depending on who plays. Alba obviously stays on the wing and the guy in front of him (Coutinho/Iniesta/Gomes etc) plays in the half space, whereas on the right you have Roberto who plays in the half space and the winger Dembele who plays on the flank, obviously when Paulinho has played on the right he has been forced to play a similar role because Roberto has to play in the half space more than the wing and that exposes alot of Paulinho's weaknesses, especially when combined with the fact its a 442 and he will be much easier disconnected from the rest of the team should Messi not provide support (which he isnt, consistently).

But my question is what importance is 442? Our build up isnt good enough? Or we dont keep possession in ideal zones of the pitch? Or chance creation? Which of those 3 areas is 442 failing us?

I would argue our build up has been below the level of the very best build up teams long before 442 came. I think our players are no longer conditioned to play with a short build up, tactics aside, I dont think we have been coached to use short passes and combinations to escape high pressure. Nor we have the players or it seems the ideas of how to work from longer passes. Our build up hasnt been "right" in a long time.

In terms of keeping possession, especially in the opponants half. I would argue 442 is not the right way to play. We are probably better at defensive transistions in this formation but in terms of which the ball, its obviously tougher to keep extended spells of possession when you dont have numerical superority in the middle of the pitch. So you can argue we would be better in this area.

Last one is chance creation. Messi is the vast majority of our chance creation, directly or indirectly. Coutinho and Dembele are probably the guys behind him in that. Does 442 hinder these guys or the team in creation of chances. The eye test says not really, I dont think we struggle to create chances because of the 442.

But again I come back to my question, is 442 so important?

I ask because 442 is only a formation, our game method is what will win or lose games for us overall. That is what needs the questions more than 442.

Will our game method be good enough if we had more quality? Is having enough quality just one or two players away?

I think most teams have the system v quality dilemia when it comes to why they arent as succcessful as they should be. I think ours is a bit of both but I think Valverde is much more likely to look for improved quality of squad than a change in his game model.

Next season, I do expect a change if Griezmann comes. I would predict a 442 diamond in possession with Griezmann making alot of defensive effort to make it viable. Dembele moves to the bench, given his age and what I suspect is some lack of trust from Valverde anyway.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by messixaviesta on Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:45 pm

dani, really enjoyed reading that post.

I think Valverde, while not overly impressive to me, has done enough to deserve another year. Firing him now would be a case of being too trigger happy. Besides I can almost bet he is staying. The way he talks and the way the club talk about him suggests no imminent change at all. Like you I also think it will probably be his last season. He will have to step up on multiple counts to get a third season which I don't think he has in him though for the sake of Barca I hope I am wrong.

As for next season's team I do not completely support the obsession with Griezmann. I think we need a regista above all, someone who can help us hold on to the ball and build up better. Not even looking for the next Xavi or Iniesta since they frankly do not exist but a good player who can play that kind of role well is needed. We need to choose carefully and would do well to look back at how well we had done in signing Rakitic at the right time.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by alexjanosik on Wed May 02, 2018 2:50 am

@The Franchise wrote:Mixed views.

In terms of his position, its clear he will continue next season and rightly so. Overall one game has cost him his reputation to some degree.

But I will say he has put himself under great pressure with that one game. I didnt expect to win the CL but to lose to this Roma side the way we lost, unacceptable in every way.

I won't go into the faults now in selection, tactics and mentally the team had in that 2nd leg but losing in that way will put him under a much closer microscope for next season than it would have been should we have won or even lost in a respectable way. No doubt. Anything but high-level performances and/or results and its the 2nd season then it would be the end I guess.

On one hand I will say only having Semedo, Dembele (coming off no preseason and subsequent injury) and Paulinho as tangible additions haven't helped. I would argue he has in some ways misused all 3 quite badly and not understood fully what their value is, but none the less those are just 2 players to a squad which needs a lot more. Coutinho obviously couldn't be used in the CL and the league had been wrapped up before his arrival, so really his signing is just a luxury and next season is where expectations will come for him and Valverde's use of him.

I read alot of talk and dislike for his 442 which I understand. But also I have some sympathy for him because I think defensively is the only workable formation which features Messi and Suarez together. I also think its the only workable formation defensively should Griezmann come for example.

Playing 433 will always give the same issue of what will you do about Messi defensively? He shouldnt and wouldnt be given an job which involves getting behind the ball during the defensive phase, and just as obviously he isnt going to be spending much focus on trying to pressure fullbacks and centerbacks into errors. Ultimately any version of 433 against a strong opponant will become a 442 in the defensive phase.

Check any team that plays 433 nowadays, you will see none of them which features 2 players without a defensive responsibility of getting behind the ball. 443 now means 10 players behind the ball if your without possession.

In attack, the question we ask is do we have to still remain in a 442? You get some variation on the flanks depending on who plays. Alba obviously stays on the wing and the guy in front of him (Coutinho/Iniesta/Gomes etc) plays in the half space, whereas on the right you have Roberto who plays in the half space and the winger Dembele who plays on the flank, obviously when Paulinho has played on the right he has been forced to play a similar role because Roberto has to play in the half space more than the wing and that exposes alot of Paulinho's weaknesses, especially when combined with the fact its a 442 and he will be much easier disconnected from the rest of the team should Messi not provide support (which he isnt, consistently).

But my question is what importance is 442? Our build up isnt good enough? Or we dont keep possession in ideal zones of the pitch? Or chance creation? Which of those 3 areas is 442 failing us?

I would argue our build up has been below the level of the very best build up teams long before 442 came. I think our players are no longer conditioned to play with a short build up, tactics aside, I dont think we have been coached to use short passes and combinations to escape high pressure. Nor we have the players or it seems the ideas of how to work from longer passes. Our build up hasnt been "right" in a long time.

In terms of keeping possession, especially in the opponants half. I would argue 442 is not the right way to play. We are probably better at defensive transistions in this formation but in terms of which the ball, its obviously tougher to keep extended spells of possession when you dont have numerical superority in the middle of the pitch. So you can argue we would be better in this area.

Last one is chance creation. Messi is the vast majority of our chance creation, directly or indirectly. Coutinho and Dembele are probably the guys behind him in that. Does 442 hinder these guys or the team in creation of chances. The eye test says not really, I dont think we struggle to create chances because of the 442.

But again I come back to my question, is 442 so important?

I ask because 442 is only a formation, our game method is what will win or lose games for us overall. That is what needs the questions more than 442.

Will our game method be good enough if we had more quality? Is having enough quality just one or two players away?

I think most teams have the system v quality dilemia when it comes to why they arent as succcessful as they should be. I think ours is a bit of both but I think Valverde is much more likely to look for improved quality of squad than a change in his game model.

Next season, I do expect a change if Griezmann comes. I would predict a 442 diamond in possession with Griezmann making alot of defensive effort to make it viable. Dembele moves to the bench, given his age and what I suspect is some lack of trust from Valverde anyway.



Nice to have you back dani. You mention 2 critical problems with the 4-4-2. Build up and possession in the middle and opponents half. The build up is an issue. You seem to imply that it could be a personnel issues. If I understood you correctly, curious to know why you think so.

I think the personnel are just fine, especially in the defensive phase. Mats is elite with the ball for a GK. Pique is Pique. Umtiti is at the very least as good as Masche barring long passes. Alba is the same. Semedo is decent on the ball but nowhere close to Alves at buildup. Busi and Rakitic are the same.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by The Franchise on Tue May 08, 2018 11:16 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:dani, really enjoyed reading that post.

I think Valverde, while not overly impressive to me, has done enough to deserve another year. Firing him now would be a case of being too trigger happy. Besides I can almost bet he is staying. The way he talks and the way the club talk about him suggests no imminent change at all. Like you I also think it will probably be his last season. He will have to step up on multiple counts to get a third season which I don't think he has in him though for the sake of Barca I hope I am wrong.

As for next season's team I do not completely support the obsession with Griezmann. I think we need a regista above all, someone who can help us hold on to the ball and build up better. Not even looking for the next Xavi or Iniesta since they frankly do not exist but a good player who can play that kind of role well is needed. We need to choose carefully and would do well to look back at how well we had done in signing Rakitic at the right time.

Intresting. A regista? Like who? I can only think of maybe a handful and all of whom would clash with Busquets, unless you mean something different?
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by The Franchise on Tue May 08, 2018 11:28 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:Mixed views.

In terms of his position, its clear he will continue next season and rightly so. Overall one game has cost him his reputation to some degree.

But I will say he has put himself under great pressure with that one game. I didnt expect to win the CL but to lose to this Roma side the way we lost, unacceptable in every way.

I won't go into the faults now in selection, tactics and mentally the team had in that 2nd leg but losing in that way will put him under a much closer microscope for next season than it would have been should we have won or even lost in a respectable way. No doubt. Anything but high-level performances and/or results and its the 2nd season then it would be the end I guess.

On one hand I will say only having Semedo, Dembele (coming off no preseason and subsequent injury) and Paulinho as tangible additions haven't helped. I would argue he has in some ways misused all 3 quite badly and not understood fully what their value is, but none the less those are just 2 players to a squad which needs a lot more. Coutinho obviously couldn't be used in the CL and the league had been wrapped up before his arrival, so really his signing is just a luxury and next season is where expectations will come for him and Valverde's use of him.

I read alot of talk and dislike for his 442 which I understand. But also I have some sympathy for him because I think defensively is the only workable formation which features Messi and Suarez together. I also think its the only workable formation defensively should Griezmann come for example.

Playing 433 will always give the same issue of what will you do about Messi defensively? He shouldnt and wouldnt be given an job which involves getting behind the ball during the defensive phase, and just as obviously he isnt going to be spending much focus on trying to pressure fullbacks and centerbacks into errors. Ultimately any version of 433 against a strong opponant will become a 442 in the defensive phase.

Check any team that plays 433 nowadays, you will see none of them which features 2 players without a defensive responsibility of getting behind the ball. 443 now means 10 players behind the ball if your without possession.

In attack, the question we ask is do we have to still remain in a 442? You get some variation on the flanks depending on who plays. Alba obviously stays on the wing and the guy in front of him (Coutinho/Iniesta/Gomes etc) plays in the half space, whereas on the right you have Roberto who plays in the half space and the winger Dembele who plays on the flank, obviously when Paulinho has played on the right he has been forced to play a similar role because Roberto has to play in the half space more than the wing and that exposes alot of Paulinho's weaknesses, especially when combined with the fact its a 442 and he will be much easier disconnected from the rest of the team should Messi not provide support (which he isnt, consistently).

But my question is what importance is 442? Our build up isnt good enough? Or we dont keep possession in ideal zones of the pitch? Or chance creation? Which of those 3 areas is 442 failing us?

I would argue our build up has been below the level of the very best build up teams long before 442 came. I think our players are no longer conditioned to play with a short build up, tactics aside, I dont think we have been coached to use short passes and combinations to escape high pressure. Nor we have the players or it seems the ideas of how to work from longer passes. Our build up hasnt been "right" in a long time.

In terms of keeping possession, especially in the opponants half. I would argue 442 is not the right way to play. We are probably better at defensive transistions in this formation but in terms of which the ball, its obviously tougher to keep extended spells of possession when you dont have numerical superority in the middle of the pitch. So you can argue we would be better in this area.

Last one is chance creation. Messi is the vast majority of our chance creation, directly or indirectly. Coutinho and Dembele are probably the guys behind him in that. Does 442 hinder these guys or the team in creation of chances. The eye test says not really, I dont think we struggle to create chances because of the 442.

But again I come back to my question, is 442 so important?

I ask because 442 is only a formation, our game method is what will win or lose games for us overall. That is what needs the questions more than 442.

Will our game method be good enough if we had more quality? Is having enough quality just one or two players away?

I think most teams have the system v quality dilemia when it comes to why they arent as succcessful as they should be. I think ours is a bit of both but I think Valverde is much more likely to look for improved quality of squad than a change in his game model.

Next season, I do expect a change if Griezmann comes. I would predict a 442 diamond in possession with Griezmann making alot of defensive effort to make it viable. Dembele moves to the bench, given his age and what I suspect is some lack of trust from Valverde anyway.



Nice to have you back dani. You mention 2 critical problems with the 4-4-2. Build up and possession in the middle and opponents half. The build up is an issue. You seem to imply that it could be a personnel issues. If I understood you correctly, curious to know why you think so.

I think the personnel are just fine, especially in the defensive phase. Mats is elite with the ball for a GK. Pique is Pique. Umtiti is at the very least as good as Masche barring long passes. Alba is the same. Semedo is decent on the ball but nowhere close to Alves at buildup. Busi and Rakitic are the same.


I think personale yes, but that is very secondary to coaching. I dont think any coach has emphasised the importance of build up. I dont feel it, I dont read it and it shows on the pitch.

Look at teams like Napoli or Man City, even Madrid and you see how clearly there is a team wide emphasis on clean build up into the middle third which distinct movement patterns based on where the ball is and who has it.

When I see Madrid play, I see various different ways to get the ball forward along the ground with various different players playing a variety of roles, be it Modric who has mastered a very realistic forward run which takes away a pressing player and allows Kroos to come into that space unmarked. Or Isco who freely overloads area's of the pitch to give numerical advantages. Or Marcelo who is capable of bringing dribbling through the lines or hitting long passes into spaces. Or Benzema who drops deep to collect the ball behind the opposing midfield line. And I wouldnt even say Madrid are as good at the build up as say Napoli or Man City.

We have players who are capable of this im sure, but I dont see much emphasis on this by Valverde or others before him.

But about the players, neither Semedo or Roberto have nearly the composure I would like out of a rightback. Alba I have never liked in terms of build up and nothing has changed there, personally I would want him as far away from the build up as possible. Umtiti is capable, I have no complaints there. Pique is obviously capable, but I also remember him strangly being the one talking about this kind of build up not being the only way to play. While I agree with him, I think it speaks to his mentality, I feel him happier to go long than before. I dont see a guy who wants to pass short or to the feet of a player like before.

But I dont blame the players, if they arent coached into doing something they will obviously not have the intention to do it.
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by messixaviesta on Fri May 11, 2018 9:35 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:dani, really enjoyed reading that post.

I think Valverde, while not overly impressive to me, has done enough to deserve another year. Firing him now would be a case of being too trigger happy. Besides I can almost bet he is staying. The way he talks and the way the club talk about him suggests no imminent change at all. Like you I also think it will probably be his last season. He will have to step up on multiple counts to get a third season which I don't think he has in him though for the sake of Barca I hope I am wrong.

As for next season's team I do not completely support the obsession with Griezmann. I think we need a regista above all, someone who can help us hold on to the ball and build up better. Not even looking for the next Xavi or Iniesta since they frankly do not exist but a good player who can play that kind of role well is needed. We need to choose carefully and would do well to look back at how well we had done in signing Rakitic at the right time.

Intresting. A regista? Like who? I can only think of maybe a handful and all of whom would clash with Busquets, unless you mean something different?

Maybe not so much in terms of playing position but in playing style. Someone who can hold on to the ball. We cannot have Gomes or Paulinho play for us in UCL knockouts or Classicos. Coutinho and Dembele on either wing will be too aggressive. Busquets is great and Rakitic has done an impressive job for us right since his signing but we need more. We need at least one more player in the center to calm things down. At one time I had pinpointed Ilkay Gundogan and later Marco Verratti. Neither is at the level they were then. At this point in time I cannot zero in on a definite name. Best would be a shrewd signing like Rakitic was in 2014.

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Re: Ernesto Valverde

Post by The Franchise on Mon May 21, 2018 7:21 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:dani, really enjoyed reading that post.

I think Valverde, while not overly impressive to me, has done enough to deserve another year. Firing him now would be a case of being too trigger happy. Besides I can almost bet he is staying. The way he talks and the way the club talk about him suggests no imminent change at all. Like you I also think it will probably be his last season. He will have to step up on multiple counts to get a third season which I don't think he has in him though for the sake of Barca I hope I am wrong.

As for next season's team I do not completely support the obsession with Griezmann. I think we need a regista above all, someone who can help us hold on to the ball and build up better. Not even looking for the next Xavi or Iniesta since they frankly do not exist but a good player who can play that kind of role well is needed. We need to choose carefully and would do well to look back at how well we had done in signing Rakitic at the right time.

Intresting. A regista? Like who? I can only think of maybe a handful and all of whom would clash with Busquets, unless you mean something different?

Maybe not so much in terms of playing position but in playing style. Someone who can hold on to the ball. We cannot have Gomes or Paulinho play for us in UCL knockouts or Classicos. Coutinho and Dembele on either wing will be too aggressive. Busquets is great and Rakitic has done an impressive job for us right since his signing but we need more. We need at least one more player in the center to calm things down. At one time I had pinpointed Ilkay Gundogan and later Marco Verratti. Neither is at the level they were then. At this point in time I cannot zero in on a definite name. Best would be a shrewd signing like Rakitic was in 2014.

I understand, a better overall midfield ball player. Someone with the technique, composure, pass choice and intelligence. I think the squad badly needs it too, especially after clearing dead wood like Gomes.

You mentioned Jorginho in another post and I like him aswell as Paredes now at Zenit.

But with Arthur, Alena promotion and the current dead wood we have I wont hold my breath on it happening. Realistically we need 2 new defenders (but like every year we will rejoice if we get just one good one) and Greizmann is very likely coming...so I cant see us getting a midfielder too.
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Re: Ernesto Valverde

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