Zidane is a poor coach

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by titosantill on Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:47 am

but yeah i doubt we will do anything in january unless some major injury happens....ego and pride are at stake, it will pretty much mean that management confesses to goofing up in the summer and don't really trust the side. as i said at the start of the season, we just have to roll with the punches and see what gives. hard for me to pin it down on tactics and all that. there's a middle ground when it comes to keeping the locker room happy vs not creating tension. you can keep them happy and still promote competition, obviously injuries haven't helped. but some players just look too relaxed out there......unrelated to this topic, marcelo is NO Carlos

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by futbol_bill on Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:56 pm

I would like to think they will get a scorer, essentially to replace Majoral in January. Other than that we can’t expect anything else in January.

For once I agree with Nick (and I was wrong) in they signed too may kids. I was all for Theo, Vallejo, Llorente, Ceballos, but I did think Achraf and Majoral were wrong. The success of Morata, Carvajal, even Isco and the development of Asensio lead to this. I do believe all 4 have potential, but in reality having that many youngsters is a mistake. It used to be none or once in a blue moon did we successfully bring in kids. With Barca, they had new youngsters every year, but I don’t think as many as we have tried this year. With Vallejo, I’m afraid we may have another stage fright Illarra on our hands.With regards to next summer best thing to do with these kids is to loan several of them out and bring in more proven older players.

As to the veterans on this team, it really depends on how Flo views Zidane, i.e. how accountable is he. Zidane is in full control IMO and fully accountable for the results. Does Flo see it this way? In other words if Zidane is still in charge next summer, we will likely see a few changes in veterans. But if it’s Flo, we will see more wholesale changes.

UNLESS, Zidane can somehow pull a rabbit out of his hat.
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Valkyrja on Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:10 pm

The kids are alright, we must develop them. The issue is with our forward which is too old and slow, and laggish, and shit.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by futbol_bill on Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:22 pm

Val, up to a few games ago, I would have agreed with you. But after the past few games, you can’t say that all these miserable results are because of one player. Did you see the ratings after last game? The entire team (other than Ronaldo at 6 and Benz at 2) got ratings of 4. That in words sums it up, the entire team was crap, not just Benz. He is the worst of the lot, bar Bale, but removing him does not solve the problem.

As to the kids, I don’t think Nick or others are saying they won’t develop. The point is we have two many, you can’t develop that many with sufficient play time at a club of this level. As a result we don’t have bench strength which was in past couple of years one of our major strengths.
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by vanDEEZ on Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:32 pm

Well, I do believe that most of us here on the forum have the confidence for the youngsters (Ceballos, Theo, Llorente, Mayoral and Vallejo), mostly the first 3 anyways, but its obvious that Zidane does not think they are ready.

And that to me is the biggest problem. Zidane either knows something about these five that we don't (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt), or he's is making poor judgement calls/doesn't trust them. With our squad under performing from top to bottom, and as thin as our bench is these players need to step it up in training, or Zidane needs to play them more to see what they can do on the pitch.

At the very least I feel as if Ceballos has proven himself enough to get a start here and there.
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by vanDEEZ on Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:39 pm

Agreed Bill, the past 2 games in particular have been horrible all around and it would be boardering on ridiculous to scapegoat any one player, least of all Benzema who wasn't as entirely shit as he has been in the other games prior to Girona
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by futbol_bill on Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:42 pm

I agree with you Deez, especially re Ceballos. But in the game were they all got to start (the recent Copa game), the only ones who stood out were Ceballos and Llorente. and even with Llorente, they were good moments but poor ones as well. note- Asensio was also very ineffective in that game as well.

I believe Zidane is trying to bring them all on slowly, as was successful last season with Asensio. But with this many kids that is difficult to do. You can see it's the pressure he wants them to avoid, but with veterans playing so poorly, rather than doing what you suggest, he is doing what many other coaches have previously done, trust the veterans to work out their problems rather than count on unproven (with pressure) kids.
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Valkyrja on Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:42 pm

@vanDEEZ wrote:Well, I do believe that most of us here on the forum have the confidence for the youngsters (Ceballos, Theo, Llorente, Mayoral and Vallejo), mostly anyways, but its obvious that Zidane does not think they are ready.

And that to me is the biggest problem. Zidane either knows something about these five that we don't (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt), or he's is making poor judgement calls/doesn't trust them. With our squad under performing from top to bottom, and as thin as our bench is these players need to step it up in training, or Zidane needs to play them more to see what they can do on the pitch.

At the very least I feel as if Ceballos has proven himself enough to get a start here and there.


I'm not talking about Mayoral, he's below average. But Vallejo, Llorente and Ceballos are world-class talents. Nurtured properly they will be world-beaters. Ceballos was one of the best CMs in La Liga last season, Llorente a top 3 DM and Vallejo was praised to the heavens in Germany.

I don't understand why Z doesn't count on Llorente. I followed him last season and he was marvelous. Not as tough defensively as Casemiro (still reliable) but much better in possession. We have to come up with something new this season, Llorente at DM instead of Case might be just that.

Whom I don't rate is Theo. I think he can be a good backup ala Nacho but I can't see him as a starter. The quality gap between him and Marcelo is huuuge. We'll have to invest heavily post Marcelo in that LB position because what he brings to the team in invaluable.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by futbol_bill on Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm

I have a suggestion (that I know won't be listened to).

How about revamping the idea of Castilla, perhaps even going back to RMC. Have all these talented kids play first (together) with Castilla (after getting the team to) 2A. The futbol at that level is pretty good, miles ahead of what goes on in 2B and would give these kids an opportunity to start and play in a more competitive (for them) environment. Let RMC be comprised of players now with Castilla and stay in 2B.

Then you have a proper progression for players within the organization. (You may not know this but years ago our Castilla team was winning 2A while the first team was dominating the 1st division.

If they return to this, you can then take the cream of the crop, each year to be promoted to the first team, leaving the developing up to Castilla.
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Valkyrja on Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:26 pm

@futbol_bill wrote:I have a suggestion (that I know won't be listened to).

How about revamping the idea of Castilla, perhaps even going back to RMC. Have all these talented kids play first (together) with Castilla (after getting the team to) 2A. The futbol at that level is pretty good, miles ahead of what goes on in 2B and would give these kids an opportunity to start and play in a more competitive (for them) environment. Let RMC be comprised of players now with Castilla and stay in 2B.

Then you have a proper progression for players within the organization. (You may not know this but years ago our Castilla team was winning 2A while the first team was dominating the 1st division.

If they return to this, you can then take the cream of the crop, each year to be promoted to the first team, leaving the developing up to Castilla.


that's a bad idea. these kids have been playing first division football for at least 1 year. you can't get them back to 2nd tier level. that would hamper that progress. they are good enough imo. we haven't even seen them play ffs.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by futbol_bill on Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:06 pm

Have you seen 2A futbol? It’s as good as the 1st division teams these kids have been coming from. Plus they would be starters, still can get call ups from 1st team and plus plus club can field Castilla in copa del rey competition. How is that hampering their progress, versus the alternative of mostly riding the bench!

I know this idea is far afetched but don’t outright dismiss it as a bad idea.
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Nivash on Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:17 pm

@futbol_bill wrote:I have a suggestion (that I know won't be listened to).

How about revamping the idea of Castilla, perhaps even going back to RMC. Have all these talented kids play first (together) with Castilla (after getting the team to) 2A. The futbol at that level is pretty good, miles ahead of what goes on in 2B and would give these kids an opportunity to start and play in a more competitive (for them) environment. Let RMC be comprised of players now with Castilla and stay in 2B.

Then you have a proper progression for players within the organization. (You may not know this but years ago our Castilla team was winning 2A while the first team was dominating the 1st division.

If they return to this, you can then take the cream of the crop, each year to be promoted to the first team, leaving the developing up to Castilla.


That's essentially the essence of what the reserve team is supposed to be. That said, I think it might be a hard sell to convince a player to leave a la liga team to join up with a 2A team. The concept works for players that either come from other reserve teams, or that come up the ranks of our system. The other aspect of it is that there's no benchmark to judge a player's potential against if the only teams they're facing are 2A teams. We know Llorente is legit because he was doing it against all the La Liga teams, contrasted against how we had every reason to believe that Portillo could become something, but we all know how that turned out.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by futbol_bill on Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:15 pm

Well, I did say this idea was out there. I’m thinking of upsetting the whole apple cart. Returning to the past in a way. Currently our Castilla is the senior team for our academy where we impose a few rules. It’s the best from academy and we limit the age to maximum 23 and we have eliminated the RMC team, mainly because we don’t enough talent post juventile age. coupled with loaning more and more players out because Castilla is permanently grounded to 2B, not being a good team even at that level.

There is an opinion that we have too many kids at first team level, that we can’t develop them at the same time given limited spots. And as a result our bench strength is a problem. Most of us would agree that the talent and promise is there, but they need development.

These 4 are not the only ones. We have signed or promoted several other talented youth who play elsewhere. What I’m basically saying is call Castilla, RMC and field a strong 2A team, without the 23 age restriction. In other words a farm team like Getafe has at times been. I maintain that the competition is just as good as the bottom half of la liga and it’s very competitive with little difference between teams throughout. These kids would be starters vs riding the bench with the 1st team, they still can be called up when needed and the club could field this team in copa del rey avoiding the third competitions for 1st team which most of you feel it gets in the way of more serious competitions. It would take a sales job to convince players coming from teams already in 1st division, but it could be done with some (not all).

If you think about the players out on loan being part of this plus in future when we sign young talent, their first destination will be this revised Castilla team.

I hope this better explains my idea, however bear in mind that I know this concept would never be adopted.

It kind of fits up there with us believing Zidane will listen to our complaints about Benz!!!
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by sportsczy on Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:01 pm

The problem isn't our bench imo.  I think it's completely unreasonable to have one regular (Bale) only play 10 games a season, others (varane and carvajal) miss 1-2 months a season and various others (marcelo, ramos, etc.) show as much consistency as 16 year old teenagers.  Not to mention the absurd lack of form of our healthy strikers (benz and ronaldo) coupled with our star CMs thinking they have nothing left to prove.

Our over-reliance on the bench is the problem.  I'm sure they could do the job if each was asked for spot duty here and there + injuries that every football team should expect.  But our bench is tasked to save us, since our regulars have gone off a cliff.  

In short, unless you have players like Morata, Isco, James, Pepe, etc. ON YOUR BENCH, that's not going to work.  I also feel the expectation of having players of that caliber on the bench as an absurdity in itself.

We need to freshen up the regulars unless they shape up pronto.... and even then.  That's the feasible solution.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by futbol_bill on Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:22 pm

Nick started this discussion and I agree with him. He says we have too many kids, promising talent they may be, but it’s too many to properly slowly develop them. And as a result our bench strength is not what it should be.

However don’t mistake this talk of youth as any fault of theirs. The problems with this team is clearly the veterans and perhaps the coach.
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:35 pm

But if you are are criticizing our over reliance on the bench, then you are criticizing Zidane's abilities as man manager. He was praised over and over for his very ability to rotate the team and to give fringe players like Vasquez a significant role in the squad, that led to successes in la liga mainly. If you are turning this against him now, then you are validating my point.

Also, if we need a horde of world class players off the bench to consistently come off the bench to save our asses, then that's another indictment.

Our stars, the same core group of Marcelo, Ramos, Kroos, Modric, BBC, have delivered 3 CLs in 4 years, including back to back CL. That's the biggest achievement in european football since the great Milan of Sacchi.

It's ok to turn the page at this point, because those guys grow old and can't perform for Zidane as they used to. This is where his coaching comes into play, because if you rely on the form of your players without developing actual football concepts, then you expose yourself to massive fails when those players stop delivering. This is where we are.

It's actually funny we recently lost to a manager like Pocchetino that built his career on coaching small teams and modest talent, while consistently delivering and proving himself. You analyze the game vs spurs and you can see how clear their concepts are and how educated about their style of play the players are.

Stark contrast, and worrisome at the same time because while we are riding this great generation for the last couple of years, we will have to build back again, as always things go by cycle. the level of our team is expected to go down while we transition away from the CR and what not (maybe this is what's starting) and we acquire new talent, figure out a team etc... if we are going to rely on coaches like Zidane who actually dont build anything, it will take (AGAIN) longer than it should.

So i dont criticize Zidane because i "hate" him, and this is not me not being appreciative of what he has achieved as coach here. I always look ahead, and i can see the shortcomings of managers like him or even Carlo, that come to your club, smile of the camera and commande respect from players because of who they are and not hat they do on the training pitch day to day. They dont build anything, and we have spent way to long away from european success for me to just ignore it. I will never support that type of managers. i wished he had proven me wrong but he hasn't.


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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by titosantill on Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:23 pm

wait, is pocchetiono now the flavor of the month as far as managers are concerned? lol. madrid have had almost every manager of the month over the years to bring their tactical "knowledge" with them, from hiddink to capello to queroz (the thought was he'd bring in some recipes from ferguson) to carlo to mourinho and so on. i'm not buying into the pocchetino talk at all
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by titosantill on Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:31 pm

at madrid, many of the players have little to no time for a bunch of tactical remedies, unless they buy into the coach, which hasn't always been the case. we always hype up these coaches like they're actually going to play or will even command the necessary respect needed from the group. not long ago it was pep, klopp and tuchel being featured constantly on our thread, now pocch?

zidane isn't exempt from blame, don't get me wrong, but for now the angel/devil i know is better than the one i don't. for the sake of our season, i hope this can be turned around, this 8 point gap really sucks
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:31 pm

No he is not, i used him as an example, i could have used others. We have not had a single manage that left an imprint on how the team plays football since Del Bosque, that's a fact.

So no, it's not about Pocchetino, my argument is simply that he impacts his team at a tactical and organizational level way more than Zidane. My argument is, we need coaches of that breed who conceptualize football a lot more, and who can make it translate on the pitch, not just man managers who act like mental gurus for 2-3 then leave with no lasting heritage.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by CBarca on Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:45 pm

"at Madrid many of the players have little to no time for a bunch of tactical remedies"

These guys are pro footballers lol, this is literally their job.

If some nothing's at Man City or Tottenham can learn and execute clear tactical/football concepts (and do so in a relatively small amount of time), Madrid players can too. Not to mention Barca under Pep.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by sportsczy on Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:15 pm

Superstar players couldn't give a rat's arse about tactics as long as it puts them in a position where they feel that they're using all their talents... big egos so it's all about them.

You only need "tactics" when your team has a talent deficit and it's necessary to scheme around them. I respect coaches who are able to do this... but it certainly doesn't apply to Madrid or any other elite team.

At the elite level, it's about motivation and fitness... which will invariably lead to performance and results. It's amazing how great players will either make a manager look like a genius or a fool.

The moral of the story is that it's all about keep the group committed to the same goal and play for each other.... hard to do on elite teams with a lot of diva personalities.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by titosantill on Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:31 pm

we have had coaches who conceptualize and even over- conceptualize a lot. over the years we've had them. funny you mention del bosque, he was fired cos flo practically called him archaic. at the time, nobody talked about him leaving any imprint, talk around town was that anyone and their grandma could coach those madrid sides. neither fans nor media cried when he left, and it seemed justified when queiroz' started. we beat del bosque's team in ucl that year in 04, and cos they were so defensive by spanish media standards, many looked at it like good job flo for firing him. not until the next year did people start shedding tears for bosque
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by titosantill on Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:41 pm

i get what you want, nothing wrong in hoping for that, but at madrid, more than any club, the coach is also a salesman. player power has been deeply rooted at this club right from time, its like its passed down; if the manager gets too cool for school with his "tactics", he'd be out of a job in no time. in my observation, the most successful managers we've had have been those that kept it simple. del bosque was never considered some tactical guru during his time here.

zidane needs to make some thorough decisions and hold players accountable. unfortunately they've gotten very comfortable cos their positions haven't been threatened. i doubt some super strategy on how ramos should never be more than a yard from his striker is what he needs. and marcelo is mad absent minded, tactics can't help that dude
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:19 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Superstar players couldn't give a rat's arse about tactics as long as it puts them in a position where they feel that they're using all their talents...  big egos so it's all about them.

You only need "tactics" when your team has a talent deficit and it's necessary to scheme around them.  I respect coaches who are able to do this...  but it certainly doesn't apply to Madrid or any other elite team.

At the elite level, it's about motivation and fitness... which will invariably lead to performance and results.  It's amazing how great players will either make a manager look like a genius or a fool.

The moral of the story is that it's all about keep the group committed to the same goal and play for each other.... hard to do on elite teams with a lot of diva personalities.
For someone with your football knowledge Sports, i don't understand why you make statements such as this.

At the elite level tactics make the difference between great and legendary. Tactics birthed most of the most legendary teams that marked eras of football over time. Specially since the 80s, the great Ajax, the great Milan with Sacchi, the great barca. Even if you disagree with it, the Catennachio. Those eras have influenced football more profoundly than anything else.

I can make a cross argument to another team sports like Basketball, look at popovich passing and spacing, the new Warriors high speed offense, the triangle with the bulls and then the lakers.

In both cases, era defining teams, with talented players (some of history greatest) playing brilliantly in some disciplined tactical display.

If that's not elite level, i dont know. And they were certainly not relying on fitness and motivation. For god sake what you wrote is offensive at a new kind of level, do you read yourself Sports? Babun and Zealous rolling in their GL grave.

This is the great lie told by Zidane, those are the things that he relies on, fitness aka Pintus, and motivation aka Zidane himself (and some rondos clips for RM youtube and twitter page, that's probably one of his top 3 training exercise). And it sounds to me like since you love him, you bought into his hype. as i said, you will turn on him the same way you did benzema, i will be here watching.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by sportsczy on Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:17 am

I disagree.  At the elite level, the best managers i've experienced are able to get their players to execute simple concepts at an almost perfect level.  They adjust the base game of the team for some opponents of course...  but nothing drastic.

In my opinion, the best teams have had buy in from all including exceptionally talented players... leading to an execution of an otherwise well known game plan so lethal that there's nothing the opposition can do about it.

Great games happened when both sides are equally committed and able to execute equally as well... and it boiled down to individual players making the difference at key moments.

Very very very very very few managers have actually revolutionized anything tactically.  In fact, I would say that even those who are given credit for a revolution stole their ideas from another manager who was less successful in implementing his novel thoughts and/or didn't have the talent... they acted as the experimental guinea pigs who took the lessons from those guys, tweaked it slightly and then were able to create the magic sauce for their team. Still, took great guts to take such a risk and succeed with it.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by titosantill on Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:10 am

just wanted to add, basketball is totally different. the coach in a basketball game has way more influence on the game than footy, way more influence and i give them way more credit than their manager counterparts in football. tim duncan messes up on a play, the next time out he knows what's coming, pop's going to sit him out. basketball is very hands on for a coach; almost video game like, if you mess up on one play, you're getting it the next time out. plays are drawn up for how to get points in certain scenarios as well as defense in certain scenarios, shot clock winding down and all.

they still need talent (look at knicks doing their best to run the triangle under fisher for instance. and teams without talent have tried to run it and failed) but its extremely hands on. not the same kind of managerial luxury in footy, which is why i've always credited the players a lot more than managers in football.

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