Zidane is a poor coach

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by titosantill on Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:10 pm

just wanted to add, basketball is totally different. the coach in a basketball game has way more influence on the game than footy, way more influence and i give them way more credit than their manager counterparts in football. tim duncan messes up on a play, the next time out he knows what's coming, pop's going to sit him out. basketball is very hands on for a coach; almost video game like, if you mess up on one play, you're getting it the next time out. plays are drawn up for how to get points in certain scenarios as well as defense in certain scenarios, shot clock winding down and all.

they still need talent (look at knicks doing their best to run the triangle under fisher for instance. and teams without talent have tried to run it and failed) but its extremely hands on. not the same kind of managerial luxury in footy, which is why i've always credited the players a lot more than managers in football.


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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by The Madrid One on Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:56 pm

Sometimes i've wondered why it's always apparently one main managerial figure who has to take the credit or blame in Football, why we haven't seen ensemble coaching teams where we have expert motivators and tacticians. If Zidane is having trouble for example, couldn't he hire someone to collaborate with and possibly take reign of tactics and all that? What is the process? Is he the only tactics guy in there?

The idea we viewers mostly get is one main man surrounded by an anonymous coaching team, sometimes it just seems too simple to me...meh food for thought.

As for our woes, i do understand Sports in that because of our player's skill, you would think that as long as an elite team is psychologically and physically prepared, that's all that's needed, but of course, things are much more complicated and many other variables have to be considered.

That's where things like tactical and transfer decisions have to be taken into account as well as club context and player form, which can be hard to predict and control at times. Both Nick and sports are right about several things, sometimes some managers can extract more in dire circumstances because they are better minds in a game plan level and have set things up better, but even making a game plan and executing it itself relies on other things not all down to a coach.


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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by titosantill on Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:22 pm

@themadridone, that's a good question. usually they have assistant coaches with whom they do all that with, just that the assistant coaches aren't popular, and when they do get popular enough they might go on to take managerial reigns elsewhere. another thing is probably money, i don't know the difference in wage structure, but i'm guessing your pay as the manager is higher than as an assistant

it also makes little sense financially for a club to higher say an ancelotti as its coach and an already popular wenger as his assistant or vice versa. that's possible in basketball where its more hands on for a coach, so you have some guys who are experts in defensive schemes like a mike brown, who was a head coach on other teams but now is an assistant at golden state. in football, coaching isn't down pat to x and o's so that's a total waste......not to mention the clash of egos that will (not might) occur. the good cop bad cop thing will only last for so long. after a while good cop will be the only cop and players will ask that bad cop gets fired

most importantly, if i feel i have what it takes to coach a side, why would i want to play second fiddle elsewhere, for less money. a pride thing too
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by sportsczy on Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:38 pm

I'm not saying that a manager does not need to have a top level tactical mind.  Of course he does.  But, in my opinion, tactics can only help you in very specific situations...  not the large majority of a season.  Also, tactics in themselves mean little unless the players are committed to them both physically and mentally.

Just to bring it back to the topic of this thread...  ZZ and his staff have proven they are very good tactically.  The team's performance in big games and the trophies have proven that.  But their biggest asset was their ability to get the players to execute on those tactics.  Otherwise, the tactics themselves were meaningless.

Right now, Real Madrid is suffering from players either being unable to perform at the physical and mental level of the past 2 years...  or, for some, they simply choose not to for whatever reason. It's the same set of players... so you can't say that the tactics aren't right for this group.

If the team had shown no consistent success under the current regime, I would be much more inclined to consider tactical issues as a possible problem.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:17 am

we have shown no consistency, this group only shows up for the big games.

Where is that organization and discipline we saw vs Atletico and Bayern now? they only produce that effort to win big games and they do not try as hard in smaller games.

We saw it last season, we had another thread about it, and the same things happening now. Main difference is that we lost 3 goalscorers, Morata, James, Mariano. Same poor performances, less goals, poorer results.

When you build a team on concrete tactical concepts, when you teach your team and players how to leverage space, or move the ball in triangles to generate space, how to leverage the half space, how to press high and when to trigger pressing at a collective level, these concepts stay and stick with your team. Zidane has been coaching Madrid for close to 24 months, and he has thought this group NOTHING. There is no consistency in how we play. Every game, every new line up, you see players trying to figure out what to do on the pitch, and when things get difficult, 442, cross the ball into the box, cross cross cross. And this notion that superstars dont want to learn these things is complete bullshit. If they are not learning it's because no one is teaching them.

So his recipe for success has very much been effort, fitness (thanks to Sergeant Pintus) and motivation. and it has worked because he is coaching 1) one of the greatest players in history 2) world class players at their peak, 3) he inherited a tried and battled squad of players who had been through war already. I dont want to take credit away from him, but we would be deluded to think we are winning because he is this genius new age coach with a new approach to the game. he is not that at all, i dont think he is even trying to be that.


Last edited by Mr Nick09 on Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:10 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:27 am

@titosantill wrote:just wanted to add, basketball is totally different. the coach in a basketball game has way more influence on the game than footy, way more influence and i give them way more credit than their manager counterparts in football. tim duncan messes up on a play, the next time out he knows what's coming, pop's going to sit him out. basketball is very hands on for a coach; almost video game like, if you mess up on one play, you're getting it the next time out. plays are drawn up for how to get points in certain scenarios as well as defense in certain scenarios, shot clock winding down and all.

they still need talent (look at knicks doing their best to run the triangle under fisher for instance. and teams without talent have tried to run it and failed) but its extremely hands on. not the same kind of managerial luxury in footy, which is why i've always credited the players a lot more than managers in football.

Again, not true, i am not talking about a play by play type of influence but the overall style of play of a team. The triangle of Phil Jackson is very real and very influential in him winning 11 championships lol. Popovich style of passing and spacing is one of the main reasons he dominated and won so much. It's not unlike what we saw from Guardiola, or Sacchi in football, it's actually very similar. Great minds maximizing the talent of their squad though coaching and through a style that allows them to win games in numbers and to dominate an era.

@The Madrid One wrote:Sometimes i've wondered why it's always apparently one main managerial figure who has to take the credit or blame in Football, why we haven't seen ensemble coaching teams where we have expert motivators and tacticians. If Zidane is having trouble for example, couldn't he hire someone to collaborate with and possibly take reign of tactics and all that? What is the process? Is he the only tactics guy in there?

that has happened a few times. The most recent example is Blanc at PSG, his assistant is very well known for his tactical acumen and the possession style PSG are playing today, is his work. The most successful example i can think of is Rijkaard's dutch aid that got barca going again before guardiola. Zidane is surrounded by his buddies, people he trusts, none of them is anything special.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Doc on Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:16 am

Ironically, we had serious issues with Madrid not showing in big matches but beating the Girona's, Levante's and Betis' to submission under various managers. Under Zidane, we struggled with the latter but performed in big matches. This season, well, we struggle in both.

Also, Phil had a legendary Bulls team and a very good Lakers side to manage though. Sure, the Triangle is very legit and won him plenty rings but like most strategies, it is dictated by your current talent. My National football side cannot play the total football stuff, we are just not talented enough.


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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:46 am

thing is, Zidane, is not the one that broke the CL drought though, Carlo did it, aided in some ways by what he inherited from Mourinho. so i can't even give him credit for that...

Also, i am not suggesting you can make lemonade out of oranges. Of course you need a base talent level to succeed at anything.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Doc on Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:59 am

Jose and Carlo had a real hand in ending our CL droughts (Jose with breaking the R16 and Carlo with an actual win) but Zidane won 2 in a row. Not Pep, not Jose, not Carlo, not Tuchel, not Poch, not fking Rafa, no one has done that in the UCL era but him. You can give him credit for that.

I personally do not like what I am seeing with the team. At all. And for all my defending Zidane and what not, he needs to rectify it. Use black magicks if he has to because to answer my own question, I actually kinda seeing him being fired at the end of the season. I have this deep, horrible feeling it actually won't get any better. Hopefully that is just 2 losses in a row talking.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:07 am

You are telling me what he achieved, i am arguing about how he achieved it. Understanding the "how" is more important if you want to think about long term success. In this club and even forum, in defense of Zidane too, we only talk about the What and then we act dumbfounded when the results don't match what we expect. I am not surprised at all, because i have always looked at the "How", and i could this type of result coming from a mile away.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by sportsczy on Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:29 am

The results are a consequence of the "how".  2 CLs and 1 La Liga...  you there's no way you get those results unless the "how" is very effective and efficient.  That's why nobody has done 2 CLs in a row...  and why it was so long since Madrid had won the double.  It may not be pleasing to your personal tastes.  But that's neither here nor there.  It was initially about not playing the type of football you want despite obviously playing the best football in Europe in terms of effectiveness...  and now that the results are lagging early on, it's because ZZ is just not a good manager (which is completely ridiculous).  Seems very self-serving and convenient to me.

They don't operate in vacuums, like you make it sound.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:17 am

The How is the special connection of Zidane has with this team, at an emotional level, Cristiano Ronaldo, this amazing squad we built, and a formidable ability to raise their level tenfolds when it matters. that is the how, a team capable of losing against Villarreal one day, then then capable of trashing Bayern the next weekend in CL semis.

The how is not Zinedine Zidane amazing tactical acumen allowing this team to reach levels not seen before, building a sound organization that allows us to thrive at a collective level. you can win with emotions, i am not denying that, but Zidane is not building anything.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Doc on Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:20 am

So Zidane achieved the UCL and then the Double because of a special connection at an emotional level. Ok Nick.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:31 am

No i listed about 4 reasons up there, you chose to read the first one and ignored the rest Rolling Eyes

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Doc on Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:45 am

Oh I didn't ignore it, don't ever ignore what you guys write. Just decided to focus on that specific line due to how hella, um, interesting it reads. And how little you really think of Zidane as a coach.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:56 am

Ah well yes i dont rate him that highly. i respect what he has achieved here as results but i dont think he is anything special as a coach at all.

and about that sentence, i put that first because it's his first and most important quality with regards to this team. There is an almost indescribable level of emotional connection between him, the players and this club. Because of all the roles he has had over the past couple of years in this squad, with mou, carlo and now, he has a bond with the players that no one can have. That's his angle, that's what he is leveraging.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by futbol_bill on Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:36 am

Ah come on Nick. Zidane is an excellent man manager. You can’t take that from him. He also has been the best coach for this team the past couple of years. He accomplished what proportedly better proven coaches (Mourino and Anceloti) couldn’t. He is the best man manager we have had since Del Bosque.

But other than that, I agree completely with your assessment. My disappointment is it’s man management that is so desperately needed right now. Why can’t Zidane right this sinking ship given it is his strength?

And @tito, flo got rid of VDB because he felt he was too ugly to speak at press conferences!
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by titosantill on Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:46 am

lmfao
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:53 am

I will say it again, sustained success if based on playing quality and dominant football which leverage our elite players' talents to the fullest. Zidane and coaches like him, like Benitez, Mourinho and Carlo, have collectively failed to achieve that in 10 years or so.

So yeah, we can win here and there by signing the most expensive players around, but now that we can't rely on CR goals, where is the football?

we play like shit, we look like shit, there are no more ramos headers to mask the farce, no more CR goals to hide the truth.

Zidane is a terrible coach, and we need to distance ourselves from the likes of him. Man managers scrub who thrive here because they are buddies with players.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Doc on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:10 am

He definitely refuses to adjust his team whenever the opposing makes a change. Like today, clearly Carassco coming on changed the dynamic and actually made us uncomfortable. Zidane waited till the 75th minute to bring on ONE player. I mean, sigh. He is just making it easy for Nick to keep bumping this thread and be proven correct.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:12 am

this is your coach.
Zidane wrote:Zidane: “This is football. Sometimes the ball won’t go in. I cannot explain it really. But it will come, for sure. We must be positive, and we are.”
cross fingers, clinch butthole, things will get better....eventually. clueless af

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by vanDEEZ on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:15 am

Then who do we get? Pochettino would be the top of my list, but that is the only name that comes to mind that there might be a chance.

Zidane gets a pass this season for me, even with how we have played. I still have some faith, but its really running out. He is making the same mistakes, and puts too much faith in garbage/past it players.
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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Doc on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:16 am

That actually is pretty basic post match comments. You're not gonna get some elaborate reason as to why we drew today through the media.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:17 am

@vanDEEZ wrote:Then who do we get? Pochettino would be the top of my list, but that is the only name that comes to mind that there might be a chance.

Zidane gets a pass this season for me, even with how we have played. I still have some faith, but its really running out. He is making the same mistakes, and puts too much faith in garbage/past it players.
fyi, i don't like pochettino, except for organized defending and team pressing, he doesn't do anything for attacking football.

I see the same problems with this team than i saw when Zidane started, to me he has not progressed much. what changed, is the form of the players.

I dont see how one or two more years will improve this. he is just a limited man manager

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by Freeza on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:20 am

Laudrup.

He's a power hungry, bossy, stubborn manager.

Give him a go before he retired. Can't really get worse than it is now.

Thenn Poch can get a shot once Laudrup burns out.

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Re: Zidane is a poor coach

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:28 am

I think there's something that needs to be done before thinking about changing managers.

We must get rid of the BBC and quickly because there's no manager in world football that can magically turn Benzema and Bale into injury-free goal scoring machines with a high work rate. The Frenchman is truly past it and Bale will never become world class with his plague of injuries. Same with Ronaldo, you'll never stop him from aging or miraculously bring his speed back.

Those three are past it, and as long as they are here, you could sign prime Sacchi and bring Cruijf back from the dead with Sir Alex as their assistant manager and the three of them wouldn't be able to do anything to improve this attack.

The frontline needs a complete overhaul and it must be done before we even start thinking about who to sign to replace Z.

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