Italy OUT of the WC

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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by Doc on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:53 am

Wait, it's official now because ESPN says he has not actually resigned as yet?!

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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by sportsczy on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:54 am

France fans were in the same denial as Italy fans are right now in terms of the state of affairs. Countries such as this should almost always have a realistic chance of winning the competitions they enter... when you're not competitive, you either need to be young and developing with obvious talent or there's a problem.

Do Italy fans realistically see their NT competing in the 2020 Euro? Or is it only about participating now and hoping to make the elimination rounds?

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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by Kaladin on Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:01 am

He hasn't resigned, he said he'll talk with the federation
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by Warrior on Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:22 am

He wants to negociate his departure since his contract runs until 2020.

Sad thing this, Ventura's whole tenure as Nazionale coach is not even worth 10 monopoly dollars.
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:02 am

@sportsczy wrote:France fans were in the same denial as Italy fans are right now in terms of the state of affairs. Countries such as this should almost always have a realistic chance of winning the competitions they enter... when you're not competitive, you either need to be young and developing with obvious talent or there's a problem.

Do Italy fans realistically see their NT competing in the 2020 Euro? Or is it only about participating now and hoping to make the elimination rounds?

This happens to every nation in the world. Even the mighty Brazil went through difficulties at some point.

Italy is no different, but they'll find a way to bounce back. They have 4 WCs for god's sake, they only have Brazil to envy Laughing

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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by sportsczy on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:43 am

They catenaccio'd their way to all 4...  imagine the Chelsea team that won CL doing it 4 times.  That's Italy for you.  Nobody other than Italians found any inspiration form any of those teams.  

The most fun Italy team was actually in Euro 2012.  First time I ever saw an Italy NT that actually employed positive football as a philosophy.

Diving was actually an art developed in Italy. So was tactical fouling, referee intimidation, etc.

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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by Doc on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:22 am

Yes, a good portion of the dark arts (as the call it) of football were very much deployed (or even developed) by Italy. I'm expecting the what about (insert nation) stuff but let's not be in denial now. Italy have done some scumbaggery things before.

However, why would Italy's World Cup wins be inspiration for anyone but Italians?! That's kinda the whole point. Italy would celebrate it and if anyone else wanna join, sure. If no one, sure. After all, they won it. Portugal didn't give one or 2 shits if the French cared about their win in Euros or whomever else had issues. It wasn't meant for them anyway.

I've always liked Italy's ends justify the means approach, they do what needs to be done to win. Proven absolutely successful for them, mostly because behind the (justified) negative connotations associated with their football, they have produced ridiculously fantastic footballers. Which is what makes this loss absolutely hilarious and maddening.

For a team that goes by that sort of thinking, you would think they would have done way more than what we saw over the 2 legs.




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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by rincon on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:05 am

What a load of crap arguments from sportszcy. "They catenaccioned their way to all 4" no they didn't Laughing

I guess scoring 8 goals past Argentina, Brazil and Germany didn't happen in 82. Or the fact that the 06 team never played catenaccio and scored twice as many goals as the next WC winner Spain.

Stop with the one-size-fots-all lazy criticism. Where the euros where anomalies but the world cups weren't. The issue is not new talent as you say, because this team has better new talent than any of the last 3 tournaments. The issue is that everyone that knew how to create was left behind by Ventura I'm favour of playing hoof ball against tall Swedes.

Conte brushed teams aside with Giaccherini, Sturaro and Pelle just a year ago while Ventura can't set a plan to score 1 goal in 90 min even with 75% possession. That's the problem.

Talent can always be improved but it's NOT this time. That was an issue for the 2016 or 2014 tournaments.

Insigne, Jorginho, El Shaarawy, Belotti, Bernardeschi, Marchisio, Florenzi, Pellegrini, Verratti. Ventura's bench (or not even called up lineup) except for the ridiculousness of giving Jorginho his debut at the last match and exoect hom to run everything. That's the problem.
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by Robespierre on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:18 am

@DeviAngel wrote:
@Robespierre wrote:Bernardeschi was crap too, it'd have changed nothing.
Stop to overrate Italan young "talents" tbh
Not sure if Matchisio is still a football player then


So you think that Candreva was a better choice then the 'overrated Italian talent' Bernardeschi?  Or some formation where Gabi, Insigne and Immobile/Belotti would play? Come on robes

Fit Marchisio > Parolo any *bleep* day.

FFS Conte beat Spain with a midfield consisting of Giaccherini, Parolo and Sturaro Laughing

You drew with us (Macedonia), we dominated the midfield ffs and we suck that is showing that something is missing. Ventura is not the man for Italy and never was...


But who   is Bernarndeschi pls .
Him or Candreva is same
At max why Insigne on bench for 90 minutes and freakin' Gabbiadini starter for the match of life. That is unreal
The truth is that Ventura has built nothing for 2 years. He was just a muppet.
He should be have built a modern Italy, based on a 433 to exploit Insigne, Verratti in his best position to Paris ( and Jorginho can do the DM ) .. but he choose to make the slave of 'senators ' used to play with this awful 352 (barzagli bonucci chiellini , not even had to courage to change it for last minutes )
you reap what you sow , so nothing, and infact Italy out after 60 years
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by rincon on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:25 am

Refusing to play the system that most of your best players use (variations of a 433) was ridiculous. "It's not my style of play" and then goes on to making that disaster of a 4-2-4 and a defensive 352 to the end. Trying to sub on De Rossi to score a goal says it all. Then again all was said when he only played Insigne as a regista in the poverty minutes he gave him.

The more I remember the worse it is. Early in the match when Bonucci cut his knee and looked like he was about to come off, who was coming on? Astori ffs
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by El Gunner on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:21 am

Is it really true that De Rossi argued against his coach putting him on, insisting that Insigne should be subbed on?

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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by rincon on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:38 am

Yep. Because Ventura is an idiot. He did take his jacket off in the end (to warm up) but emphasized that we needed to win the game, to bring on forwards and not him, while gesturing to Insigne who was sitting on his left. Bernardeschi ended up coming on. I posted the video in the azzurri thread.


Last edited by rincon on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:59 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by El Gunner on Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:58 am

@rincon wrote:Yep. Because Ventura is an idiot. He did take his jacket off in the end (to warm) but emphasized that we needed to win the game, to bring on forwards and not him, while gesturing to Insigne who was sitting on his right. Bernardeschi ended up coming on. I posted the video in the azzurri thread.


un *bleep* believable rofl :facepalm:

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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:04 pm

@El Gunner wrote:Is it really true that De Rossi argued against his coach putting him on, insisting that Insigne should be subbed on?
He didn't say insigne should be on, but when he was told to warm up he responded with "Why the f would i come on? We need to win, not to draw"

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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by Warrior on Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:21 pm

What's DDR doing on the bench to begin with Laughing
It's beyond what i call dogmatism, because at least dogmatic people have the balls to go all-in even when they see glimpses of an upcoming failure. Dogmatic people don't pussy out being defensive vs Sweden. No, Ventura is simply stupid... he's mindblowingly foolish about Italian football and that's all there is to say. 99% of the blame goes to him, Ventura's presence has intoxicated the air of a world class locker room. Everyone fell sick of this air from Chiello to Verratti.

INSIGNE-BELOTTI-BERNARDESCHI
VERRATTI-DE ROSSI-JORGINHO
SPINAZZOLA-CHIELLINI-BONUCCI-DARMIAN
BUFFON

See, is it really that hard ? Any poster in the Calcio Thread would have done better than him, even myself would you believe. You need to score 1st, then you might want to use some fancy aberrations that fits you agenda (if you have enough balls/brain to at least have one) as a strategy.
Candreva is a lock and it's even as neutral it's annoying.... carried by Icardi or something in the same vein.
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by rincon on Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:51 pm

I really want Ancelotti for the job. The 4 candidates put froth by Gazzetta were him, Allegri, Conte and Mancini and Carlo won the votes by a landslide.

Regardless of comes in, its clear that it ill be a new start (what Ventura was supposed to do) and the 90's generation will take charge.

Jorginho should be the first name on the team sheet. We can forget about Verratti's poverty attempts at playing regista, he needs to play further up like he does with PSG. The rest of the midfield should be a selection of whoever is more in form among Gagliardini, Pellegrini, Florenzi, Barella, Parolo, etc plus Marchisio if he is fit.

Donnarumma and Perin can fight for the #1 spot which will be good. Bonucci needs to become Chiellini and lead Rugani/Romagnoli/Caldara. The right backs can stay the same except Spinazzola and Emerson should always be the options for the left.

Insigne needs to be the second name on the team sheet. Followed by Belotti and then you pair them with whoever is looking best from El Shaarawy, Bernardeschi, Candreva and then Chiesa next year.

I like that UEFA nations league is coming so that this group can play against top european teams in games that matter right away. Let them grow like that so we know what works, or doesn't, asap.
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by Warrior on Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:04 pm

Allegri is a Juve lock
Mancini = *bleep* off
Conte is at Chelsea for now, if sacked he'll hit the jackpot in Milang

So yes, Ancelotti is the best manager available.

I agree about the players you cite. The most important in sport club is always the transition between generations. The talent is definitely there, top 5 in Europe even right now.

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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by titosantill on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:08 pm

nothing wrong with catenaccio at all, it has probably even helped more than it has hurt. everybody can't go out there playing gung-ho football, or pass pass pass. even with catenaccio, in the past, they had top players, attackers who could yet still turn a game on its head at a moments notice, they have a bunch of extremely regular dudes who garner very little interest from top foreign clubs

as demon mentioned they're going through a phase, many top national teams don't have the talent they used to, and need hits like this to get back to the drawing board. its primarily about the talent. ace ventura could have employed the best strategy in the world, but unless this lot met scrubs along the way, they never looked like they would make any noise at the world cup......heart and passion may have helped them a bit, but only so far heart and passion and tactics can carry you without actual talent on the pitch
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by titosantill on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:19 pm

its very convenient for fabio cannavaro's brother to blame foreigners......its not like the serie a is attracting top prospects today. in the 80s and 90s they attracted all the top players across the world, probably more than any other top league and nobody complained about foreign players.....at the same time there were also top italian attackers coming out at an array of clubs. a very convenient target but this has nothing to do with foreigners, its in house.....
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by Robespierre on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:20 pm

Allegri , Mancini , Conte and Ancelotti are all very good names but at same time they are not possibile
Anyway it is hard to talk about the future after the ugliest day ever for the Italian NT.
Nothing will ever be the same
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by vanDEEZ on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:45 pm

It's really unbelievable, if Ventura can find work after that embarrassment I might have to be resurrected after being surprised to death.
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by breva on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:36 pm

@sportsczy wrote:They catenaccio'd their way to all 4...  imagine the Chelsea team that won CL doing it 4 times.  That's Italy for you.  Nobody other than Italians found any inspiration form any of those teams.  

The most fun Italy team was actually in Euro 2012.  First time I ever saw an Italy NT that actually employed positive football as a philosophy.

Diving was actually an art developed in Italy.  So was tactical fouling, referee intimidation, etc.  


You have obviously never watched Italy play. Watch Italy beat Argentina, Brazil and Germany in 1982 (which they did in succession) to win the WC, and tell me when Italy played anything but attacking football. Or in 2006, when Italy attacked Germany for 120 minutes before scoring 2 goals against them.  

Or watch the semifinal against Germany in 1970 and tell us that there was anything but constant attacking by Italy.  That is the game that is known as the Game of the Century, Partita del Secolo or Jahrhundertspiel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKlf38gmvOY

I am partial to the 1982 Brazil-Italy World Cup match as the game of the century, but that's me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3th82ZfFsUg

Now watch those matches and tell us that Italy played defensive.  You just have been buying the propaganda propagated by know nothings.

By the way, diving was brought to Italy by South American players. It was considered unmanly in Italy to allow another player to knock you down before the South Americans arrived. And, since post match penalties for diving were implemented a few years ago combined with VAR today, you see less diving in Italy than in other leagues.


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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by InterMalia on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:36 pm

1. Clear the FIGC from top to bottom and give the job to Maldini and Baggio.
2. Give Sarri the job even if he refuses to leave Napoli, make him work double.
3.Sarri football from u15 all the way up to the senior team.
4.Same style of play for four years and the u17 team will be in their twenties come next WC.

5.Profit.

Italians can thank me another time now you should keep on weeping for your beloved country overtaken by mighty foreign players..


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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by M99 on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:37 pm


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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by breva on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:40 pm

Ventura was a Serie B manager that only coached Torino (a mediocre team) in Serie A for a short time. He did not make the big bucks in his career that top rate Italian coaches make. And, Italy has probably the best coaches in the world coaching in Italy and around the world. So, Ventura is part of the good old guys club and is a friend of Tavecchio, the incompetent and racist head of the FIGC (the Italian Football Association). Tavecchio was forced down the neck of the FIGC through the influence of other old farts like Lotito, the owner of Lazio. Tavecchio was optimal in that he could be manipulated by jerks like Lotito. So, Ventura at nearly 70 needed a retirement fund, so he was given the job as Commisario Tecnico (national team manager) for the 2018 World Cup in 2016 by his buddy Tavecchio. Annual salary 1,4 M euro a year. He took over a decent, but not exceptional national team put together by Conte, who is now the Chelsea (in the UK) manager. While not an exceptional team, during the European Championships in 2016, the Italian team, thrashed both Belgium and Spain and only lost on penalty kicks to Germany after drawing against them in normal and extra time. Ventura proceeded to destroy this decent national team almost immediately after taking over, managing only a tie against Spain just 2 months after Italy had thrashed Spain 3-0 or so under Conte. He should have been replaced then, as it was obvious that Ventura was hurting, not improving the team. Not only was Ventura not fired, he was given a contract extension to 2020 by his buddy Tavecchio this March I think. This was to insure that after he failed in the World Cup he would be fired and would receive the additional 2 years of salary at 1.4 M euro. That's why the greedy moron did not resign last night, he wants to be fired so he can get his salary for the next 2-3 years or negotiate a generous "buonuscita" (severance) for having failed miserably. There you have it.
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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

Post by breva on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:06 pm

@rincon wrote:What a load of crap arguments from sportszcy. "They catenaccioned their way to all 4" no they didn't Laughing

I guess scoring 8 goals past Argentina, Brazil and Germany didn't happen in 82. Or the fact that the 06 team never played catenaccio and scored twice as many goals as the next WC winner Spain.

Stop with the one-size-fots-all lazy criticism. Where the euros where anomalies but the world cups weren't. The issue is not new talent as you say, because this team has better new talent than any of the last 3 tournaments. The issue is that everyone that knew how to create was left behind by Ventura I'm favour of playing hoof ball against tall Swedes.

Conte brushed teams aside with Giaccherini, Sturaro and Pelle just a year ago while Ventura can't set a plan to score 1 goal in 90 min even with 75% possession. That's the problem.

Talent can always be improved but it's NOT this time. That was an issue for the 2016 or 2014 tournaments.

Insigne, Jorginho, El Shaarawy, Belotti, Bernardeschi, Marchisio, Florenzi, Pellegrini, Verratti. Ventura's bench (or not even called up lineup) except for the ridiculousness of giving Jorginho his debut at the last match and exoect hom to run everything. That's the problem.



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Re: Italy OUT of the WC

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