The EPL is now a one team league

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by S on Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:11 am

Pep outspent everyone in the league by a fair bit , even Man United. Like Luca said, he's bought a whole new squad over the last two summers so the foundation had already been laid before this season

Sold no key players unlike his closest rival Chelsea

Stacked up his already over stacked ridiculous depth  but somehow the money argument doesn't apply lol

The least he could do with all this money spent is actually get the best out of them

Also bringing up failures of jabroni managers like Montella to validate your point , really ? But then again, you thought Montella is better than Spalletti so who knows...

He isn't doing anything out of the ordinary although if he manages to win CL, then that will be an extraordinary feat I admit

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by Casciavit on Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:54 am

When Pep joined City, half of the City team was over 30 years old. The team needed rebuilding with or without Pep's arrival. Considering it's City, it's no surprise they spent a large amount to do so.

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:04 am

^ I guess he had to rebuild the team, but Luca is not criticizing him for that. He's simply saying that the "money" factor should be taken into account when assessing City's rosy patch this season and that for all that money spent nothing other than first place is acceptable.

Case in point, you have United who have spent heavily in strengthening their squad in recent years but are currently trailing City by 13 points. For all that money spent, it's absolutely unacceptable to be that far behind.

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by rincon on Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:34 am

He is clearly doing a great job this season, games don't win themselves and they have a solid gameplan. Everyone can tell.

Dismissing the money factor is just as ridiculous as not acknowledging that he is doing a good job. City have spent over 200m for 3 seasons in a row.

List of teams which have spent like City these last 3 seasons: None. Not Madrid, Barca, Juve or Bayern. Not United or Chelsea. Not even PSG (I think if you add Mbappe's amount, yes, but he is listed as a loan for this season).

That's why its hard to be too excited about a manager's job when he is handed the most expensive markets ever like this.

I'm NOT saying that he is not doing a good job this season, of course he is, you can see it. When a team spends unlimited amounts of money like this, its hard to get too excited about the manager.
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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by serghei_ro on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:14 am

This spending thing doesn't make much sense. Yes, it's a factor in Pep's success as a manager but it's not nearly the defining factor. Pep built one of the best teams ever without much spending at Barca, when he took a team that was underperforming against Madrid in La Liga for two consecutive years, and made it something unseen in football.

Back at Barca, Guardiola was criticized for having players like Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc. to implement his vision with, players he didn't buy, academy players. So people really have an issue with Pep constantly getting the chance to work with great or even legendary players, not with how much he spends, because he was getting a lot of criticism back when he wasn't spending much.

City's basic go to formula in midfield and attack consists of Silva, De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Sterling, Aguero and Sane. So in the top 6, he only introduced Sane from the Pellegrini days. The rest of 5 players were already there, but underused. So it's not actually the new players that are making the difference, but the 'old guard' (part of it) consisting of existing players that have found a new level under Pep. I'd say only Aguero hasn't made the jump to a higher level of football under Guardiola so far. Every other player is better than he was. In some cases, the difference is striking.

The problem for the other Premier League teams is that Guardiola's system is guaranteed to get the better out of any good attacking players. Man is a dream to work with for any player, because his way of playing constantly puts players in position and situations that they enjoy being in. The risks of such a team is the erosion of motivation, concentration, and the lack in intensity, that's how City will drop from the current level. Those three factors will make breaking ultra defensive teams harder to pull off, because the will to work very hard and break them down will be less present as time goes by. But as long as motivation is high for this City team, and they don't get exhausted during the season, they will be very hard to outplay.

Money is not the main reason for this btw. He can put in a team formed from 90% players he inherited at City and still play the same and win the same, because he has improved players from the old guard who now look like the best in the league, or even better, the best in the world on their position in some cases. The amount of money he spent was to make sure he has a big squad with quality players. And that influences not the ability to play at a high level, but the ability to sustain that for a whole season.
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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by S on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:37 am

Pep spent a bottle load at Barca. Difference is most of those signings ended up being flops.
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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by serghei_ro on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:53 am

@S wrote:Pep spent a bottle load at Barca. Difference is most of those signings ended up being flops.


He didn't spend that much. For exanple, he took the team that finished 4th in La Liga in 2008 and won everything you could possibly win in a football season in 2009. With the only key signings being those of Dani Alves and Pique for a combined 40m. euros fee. Almost as much as he got by selling Ronaldinho and Deco. Basically 2 starters in, 2 starters out.
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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by rincon on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:05 am

Why turn an argument about EPL, City and Pep's success there into Pep's whole career as a manager and Barca?

These are different arguments.
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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by serghei_ro on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:09 am

@rincon wrote:Why turn an argument about EPL, City and Pep's success there into Pep's whole career as a manager and Barca?

These are different arguments.


It shows Pep can achieve success with buying big, or without buying big, and that his level of football is not as much influenced by that, as people make it sound. Even at City, the backbone of the team is not bought, but the same old one, only much improved.


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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by Jay29 on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:09 am

While acknowledging that City have spent a lot on new players, it's important to note that every Premier League team invests heavily in their squad, yet only one of them is top of the table having won 17 out of 18 games.

So yeah, Guardiola has spent x amount to get this team where it is. He's also coached them in a way that makes them superior to every other team who has spent x amount. Contrast his team with Mourinho's United and you'll see the impact Guardiola is having.

I think it's a misconception that football is easy if you invest hundreds of millions in a squad. It's not. Getting the best out of top players requires certain skills not every manager has.
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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:10 am

I can only repeat myself. Not a surprise seeing a Pep team in October-December looking on top of the world.

Let's talk in April. The notion of invincibility will evoke a faint smile then.

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by S on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:16 am

@serghei_ro wrote:
@S wrote:Pep spent a bottle load at Barca. Difference is most of those signings ended up being flops.


He didn't spend that much. For exanple, he took the team that finished 4th in La Liga in 2008 and won everything you could possibly win in a football season in 2009. With the only key signings being those of Dani Alves and Pique for a combined 40m. euros fee.

That fee for Dani Alves was a world record fee back then.  You can't compare fees from 10 years ago to today's inflated market. He also bought Hleb for a fair bit of money who obviously flopped. Keita from Sevilla. All these signings could easily cost from upwards of 130M-150M today. And the following year, he made the 2nd most expensive purchase in football back then with Ibra so it's pretty ridiculous to say he transformed Barca into an unbeatable team without spending much.
He inherited a team full of world class players that needed a fresh outlook and some serious tinkering and he excelled wonderfully well upon doing so. No one is taking that credit from him.
But let's not look to the past. Let's talk about City. No one is discrediting him or dissing him. Just that he isn't doing anything out of the ordinary with all the talent he has at his disposal.


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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by rincon on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:17 am

@serghei_ro wrote:
@rincon wrote:Why turn an argument about EPL, City and Pep's success there into Pep's whole career as a manager and Barca?

These are different arguments.


It shows Pep can achieve success with buying big, or without buying big, and that his level of football is not as much influenced by that, as people make it sound.


Whatever spent or didn't at Barca is irrelevant to his teams success City.

If his level of football wasn't as much influenced by the expenditures at City, don't you think that City would have liked to save themselves 400m? It's easy to say "money doesn't matter much" when money is unlimited. It's an expensive as he'll squad built with crazy money to win.

It's not a crime to be in a rich club, there is no need to downplay it.

Like I said, in the two seasons that Pep has been at City, and the one before him which saw the start of a "renewal", they have spent the most money in the world. Literally number 1 in the world. So having that squad and then saying that its not a big factor is ridiculous.

Second separate argument on the Pep's Barca past thing. You separate the effect of his expenditure from the effect of having great or legendary players at his disposal when referring to criticism. This are the same thing. Money is not an argument because bags of money are on the field, it's just a means to top players. Saying he didn't spend much, while he had the best player ever and an amazing squad is irrelevant. Spending is just a way to fix what you don't have.

Again this doesn't mean that he is not doing a great job, it's just pointing out the world's most expensive elephant in the room.
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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by serghei_ro on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:20 am

@S wrote:
@serghei_ro wrote:
@S wrote:Pep spent a bottle load at Barca. Difference is most of those signings ended up being flops.


He didn't spend that much. For exanple, he took the team that finished 4th in La Liga in 2008 and won everything you could possibly win in a football season in 2009. With the only key signings being those of Dani Alves and Pique for a combined 40m. euros fee.

That fee for Dani Alves was a world record fee back then.  You can't compare fees from 10 years ago to today's inflated market. He also bought Hleb for a fair bit of money who obviously flopped. Keita from Sevilla. All these signings could easily cost from upwards of 130M-150M today. And the following year, he made the 2nd most expensive purchase in football back then with Ibra so it's pretty ridiculous to say he transformed Barca into an unbeatable team without spending much.
He inherited a team full of world class players that needed a fresh outlook and some serious tinkering and he excelled wonderfully well upon doing so. No one is taking that credit from him.
But let's not look to the past. Let's talk about City. No one is discrediting him or dissing him. Just that he isn't doing anything out of the ordinary with all the talent he has at his disposal.


He turned Barca into an unbeatable team with 30m. net spent in the summer of 2008, playing the same team almost that was humiliated by Madrid in La Liga the year before. That's a fact. Ibra happened after he already made the sextuple in 2009 with very much the same team inherited from Rijkhaard.


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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:20 am

@Hapless_Hans wrote:I can only repeat myself. Not a surprise seeing a Pep team in October-December looking on top of the world.

Let's talk in April. The notion of invincibility will evoke a faint smile then.

Of course, it's a little premature to start drawing conclusions now. But as things stand, winning 17 games out of 18, beating every single rival in the process without losing a single match is quite impressive and certainly worthy of respect.

They may or may not end up the champion of England in May, after all football is unpredictable and anything can happen. But something tells me this year, the trophy will land on the blue side of Manchester.

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:26 am

@serghei_ro wrote:
@S wrote:
@serghei_ro wrote:


He didn't spend that much. For exanple, he took the team that finished 4th in La Liga in 2008 and won everything you could possibly win in a football season in 2009. With the only key signings being those of Dani Alves and Pique for a combined 40m. euros fee.

That fee for Dani Alves was a world record fee back then.  You can't compare fees from 10 years ago to today's inflated market. He also bought Hleb for a fair bit of money who obviously flopped. Keita from Sevilla. All these signings could easily cost from upwards of 130M-150M today. And the following year, he made the 2nd most expensive purchase in football back then with Ibra so it's pretty ridiculous to say he transformed Barca into an unbeatable team without spending much.
He inherited a team full of world class players that needed a fresh outlook and some serious tinkering and he excelled wonderfully well upon doing so. No one is taking that credit from him.
But let's not look to the past. Let's talk about City. No one is discrediting him or dissing him. Just that he isn't doing anything out of the ordinary with all the talent he has at his disposal.


He turned Barca into an unbeatable team with 30m. net spent in the summer of 2008, playing the same team almost that was humiliated by Madrid in La Liga the year before. That's a fact. Ibra happened after he already made the sextuple in 2009 with very much the same team inherited from Rijkhaard.

I think you're still missing his point. What he's trying to tell you is that those fees he spent back in 2009 to sign Alves, Keita, ... would easily go north of 130m in today's inflated market. This is not meant to dis or even belittle Guardiola's historic achievements at Barcelona, it's only meant to show you that even back then he still had to spend to pull Barcelona out of mediocrity.


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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by serghei_ro on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:26 am

@Jay29 wrote:While acknowledging that City have spent a lot on new players, it's important to note that every Premier League team invests heavily in their squad, yet only one of them is top of the table having won 17 out of 18 games.

So yeah, Guardiola has spent x amount to get this team where it is. He's also coached them in a way that makes them superior to every other team who has spent x amount. Contrast his team with Mourinho's United and you'll see the impact Guardiola is having.

I think it's a misconception that football is easy if you invest hundreds of millions in a squad. It's not. Getting the best out of top players requires certain skills not every manager has.


Very true. And it's wrong to look at sums as the market is crazy these days. Pep didn't sign a single world class player for City in his time so far. Not even 1. The only world class players City have are inherited from Pellegrino, namely Silva, and De Bruyne, arguably Aguero. Pep brought young talented players like Sane, Stones, Jesus, for inflated prices due to the market being what it is. Players that need hundreds and hundreds of hours of work under the right type of manager to maybe eventually become world class at some point in their careers. If they ever do, looks like all 3 can become some of the best in the world in their positions, that's more the work of Guardiola, than anything else.

People turn this discussion only into a money drivel, when most of what's happening at City is actually related to football, tactics, variations and dynamics of play, rather than monetary aspects.
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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:27 am

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:I can only repeat myself. Not a surprise seeing a Pep team in October-December looking on top of the world.

Let's talk in April. The notion of invincibility will evoke a faint smile then.

Of course, it's a little premature to start drawing conclusions now. But as things stand, winning 17 games out of 18, beating every single rival in the process without losing a single match is quite impressive and certainly worthy of respect.

They may or may not end up the champion of England in May, after all football is unpredictable and anything can happen. But something tells me this year, the trophy will land on the blue side of Manchester.


You don't have to convince me that Pep is an exceptional league coach. I know.
When his Bayern were walking the league year in year out, people said oh well it's Bayern and the Bundesliga. Now he's doing the same with a PL in which the best of the best coaches are assembled at his rival clubs and where every club spends shitloads of money, players like Krychowiak at *bleep* West Brom and Jesé at Stoke.
Well guess what, he really is that good. His teams play the best football in the most consistent way, and therefore walk the league.
It wasn't easy walking Bundesliga, which in 2014-16 was much better than it is now.

Still, in spring the players won't be able to process his constant activism anymore, having walked the league the pressure will drop and they'll start to lose games.

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by serghei_ro on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:49 am

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:
@serghei_ro wrote:
@S wrote:

That fee for Dani Alves was a world record fee back then.  You can't compare fees from 10 years ago to today's inflated market. He also bought Hleb for a fair bit of money who obviously flopped. Keita from Sevilla. All these signings could easily cost from upwards of 130M-150M today. And the following year, he made the 2nd most expensive purchase in football back then with Ibra so it's pretty ridiculous to say he transformed Barca into an unbeatable team without spending much.
He inherited a team full of world class players that needed a fresh outlook and some serious tinkering and he excelled wonderfully well upon doing so. No one is taking that credit from him.
But let's not look to the past. Let's talk about City. No one is discrediting him or dissing him. Just that he isn't doing anything out of the ordinary with all the talent he has at his disposal.


He turned Barca into an unbeatable team with 30m. net spent in the summer of 2008, playing the same team almost that was humiliated by Madrid in La Liga the year before. That's a fact. Ibra happened after he already made the sextuple in 2009 with very much the same team inherited from Rijkhaard.

I think you're still missing his point. What he's trying to tell you is that those fees he spent back in 2009 to sign Alves, Keita, ... would easily go north of 130m in today's inflated market. This is not meant to dis or even belittle Guardiola's historic achievements at Barcelona, it's only meant to show you that even back then he still had to spend to pull Barcelona out of mediocrity.



130m. as you say (even though you overrate how much Keita would cost today). Let's say so. But 130 is not really a lot anymore. Teams spend 200m+ these days. When the market changes, so does the perception of what 'a lot' means. The amount of money Pep spent in 2008 to achieve the success in 2008-09 was not a lot then, and wouldn't be a lot today. Madrid spent as much as Barca in 2008 even though they had a better season for example. The decisive factor then, as it is now, was Guardiola's ability to raise the level of each player. Each player that played under Rijkhaard and was kept, became better under Guardiola.

It's the same now at City.


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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:49 am

@Hapless_Hans wrote:I can only repeat myself. Not a surprise seeing a Pep team in October-December looking on top of the world.

Let's talk in April. The notion of invincibility will evoke a faint smile then.


And just like last season I'll criticise him if he deserves it, just like I'll praise him if I think he deserves it.

Pretty simple stuff really.

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:56 am

@Jay29 wrote:While acknowledging that City have spent a lot on new players, it's important to note that every Premier League team invests heavily in their squad, yet only one of them is top of the table having won 17 out of 18 games.

So yeah, Guardiola has spent x amount to get this team where it is. He's also coached them in a way that makes them superior to every other team who has spent x amount. Contrast his team with Mourinho's United and you'll see the impact Guardiola is having.

I think it's a misconception that football is easy if you invest hundreds of millions in a squad. It's not. Getting the best out of top players requires certain skills not every manager has.


Exactly and I should explain myself, I didn't mean to state that money is irrelevant just for this summer it doesn't explain the turnaround from last season to this.

That's on Pep himself and many of his players making significant improvements from last season.

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:28 pm

@serghei_ro wrote:The decisive factor then, as it is now, was Guardiola's ability to raise the level of each player. Each player that played under Rijkhaard and was kept, became better under Guardiola.

It's the same now at City.

And I absolutely agree with you. Again, I'm not really trying to discredit Guardiola for his phenomenal achievements. It takes a little bit more than money to build a legendary team like 2009 Barcelona, you have to combine that with a brilliant tactical mind to make the team gel and all the pieces fall into place.

Guardiola is the one coach I'm dying to see in the dugouts of the Bernabeu and the one coach I know he'll never manage Madrid.

He doesn't rely on luck or the individual brilliance of his players to save his ass every single time. He goes for the kill through brilliant attacking football, doesn't settle for mediocrity and doesn't park the bus no matter how strong or superior the opponents are.

He may get absolutely smashed every now and then by a CL heavyweight, but you'd be a complete fool not to see the brilliance of his tactical acumen.

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by futbol_bill on Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:40 pm

You want the comparison to truly measure this? Compare Pep’s results, all teams, to Mourinho’s, the self described the great one!

Both are acknowledged generally as two of the best (although I for the life of me don’t understand the latter). Lots of spending by both, but examine the results, both at the beginning, the second year and the (usually) final year. Examine how effective the club was after they depart. Absolutely no comparison when a head to head comparison is made!

(And this is coming from a guy who can’t stand Pep (for  his Catalan stand, and he isn’t even a Catalan he is Andul)
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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:19 pm

@rincon wrote:Dismissing the money factor is just as ridiculous as not acknowledging that he is doing a good job. City have spent over 200m for 3 seasons in a row.

List of teams which have spent like City these last 3 seasons: None. Not Madrid, Barca, Juve or Bayern. Not United or Chelsea. Not even PSG (I think if you add Mbappe's amount, yes, but he is listed as a loan for this season).

That's why its hard to be too excited about a manager's job when he is handed the most expensive markets ever like this.


How many teams try to buy success and how many actually get it? By this logic City should have been winning the league for the past 3 years rather than losing it to the likes of Chelsea and Leicester.

It's true that City have spent big, but the core of Pep's team after 2 years is made up of mostly players that were already there. If you look at the team that played yesterday the only additions were the GK, the two FBs, and a midfielder. Any coach that took over the City team would have made the same changes, simply because Hart, Zaba, and Clichy were all past it.

Also speaking of "City spending 200+ for 3 seasons in a row" is laughable because value wise they got taken advantage of every time. Mangala, Otamendi, Stones, Sterling, etc were all considered massive flops who went there for 40+. It's only now that they're being reevalued under his training. Even this year very few people thought Walker was worth 50m.

We can't dismiss the money factor, agreed, but we can't let it eclipse every thing else about City as people often do when this comes up. When you look at the facts it's not the new players that are making them play exciting football, or go into winning streaks. Most of the high performers now were already there, and Pep is getting the most out of them.

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by futbol on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:25 pm

I'm the biggest Fraudiola preacher here but let's be real. Even if City spent tons of money how many world class players do they have? Silva maybe (who wasn't there yesterday when they dismantled Spurs) and De Bruyne certainly and that's it. Are we going to pretend every coach should walk the league with Fernandinho, Sané, Sterling, Otamendi, Walker, Delph? Any Real Madrid, Barca or Bayern fans envy any of those names? He has a very good team but not an elite team.

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Re: The EPL is now a one team league

Post by serghei_ro on Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:20 pm

@futbol wrote:I'm the biggest Fraudiola preacher here but let's be real. Even if City spent tons of money how many world class players do they have? Silva maybe (who wasn't there yesterday when they dismantled Spurs) and De Bruyne certainly and that's it. Are we going to pretend every coach should walk the league with Fernandinho, Sané, Sterling, Otamendi, Walker, Delph? Any Real Madrid, Barca or Bayern fans envy any of those names? He has a very good team but not an elite team.


True. I would only take De Bruyne at Barca form City's team. And Bernardo Silva (but that's mostly because our midfield is mediocre).
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