Juventus: The Next Cycle

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Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:53 pm

Just some thoughts but how good of shape are we in? I think we have quietly put together an amazing team this season but also with great foreshadowing in the squad and on loan.

Lets start with the young, current players
Dybala- 24
Rugani- 23
De Sciglio- 25
Bernardeschi- 23
Bentancur- 20
Pjaca- 22

The "Right Now" Players
Douglas Costa- 27
Pjanic- 27
Alex Sandro- 26
Szszesny- 27
Cuadrado- 29
Higuain- 30
Khedira- 30
Matuidi- 30
Benatia- 30
Mandzukic-31

The Veterans
Chiellini- 33
Barzagli 36
Marchisio-31
Buffon- 39

Players Soon to Come
Caldara- 23
Spinazzola- 24
Moise Kean- 17*
Lirola-20*
Orsolini- 20*
Rolando Mandragora- 20*

*No idea if and when they join Juve

Next season, with departures of older players like Buffon [say it ain't so], Lichtsteiner, perhaps Asamoah, Cuadrado, Mandzukic [just speculation and guesses], and the entrance of players like Caldara and Spinazzola, our squad quickly gets much younger and given the patient development of a player like Rugani, he should be poised for a big role next season along with Caldara who is already a focal point for Atalanta. De Sciglio is already quite experienced, Spinazzola is more of a wildcard, given that he doesn't play in a back four right now.

I'd say if we look just one year ago, our team was much older with no real plan for the future but quite quickly we have acquired 5-6 younger, talented players and replaced some of the older players from the last couple seasons or reduced their roles.

What do you guys think?


Last edited by Luca on Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Warrior on Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:52 pm

Great thread

The transition was done smoothly, thanks to Marotta. Now the puzzle is only missing 2 or 3 last pieces at most. SERGEJ must be the priority, and if we buy him the other transfers will be bench players... 2nd gk, replacement for Mandzukic, or whatever else...

For the rest i think the team's "revamping" process is complete. Future will provide us the outcome.

Buffon retiring sucks since he is still world class, but how about Barzagli, Licht ?? Clubs legends who are running their last quality miles this season. A last round of honor then let's end this properly please.

Spoiler:
There is also the possibility of Juve selling Dybala or Sandro, in which case we absolutely need to replace them with top class players. But we discuss enough about it in Transfer thread.
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:43 pm

I didn't want to touch on possible departures more than I did, I think with certainty we can say that Lichtsteiner and Buffon will go

Barzagli could very well extend, I would be for it. He's reliable and we play 50 matches a season. He's also become somewhat of an unspoken, unsung hero. A real legend for me, great for our young defenders like Caldara/Rugani

There's a real chance we sign either Can or Sergej, or both [more likely one and more like the first name], and again this fits into our current direction

I think the largest concern is over Higuain, easily has 2-3 seasons left at the top level but we do have to think about it, especially with the amount of games he plays. A signing like Schick would've been great but maybe it was too soon and we instead decided to invest into Bernardeschi and Douglas Costa, I'm not upset with how it went
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by rincon on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:27 am

I've said the same in other threads before, Marotta and co. did a really good job to position the team for the present and future. Now its up to Allegri to foster these younger players and for them to come through.

You missed Mandragora in the list of loans, I'm still not giving up on my boy. Orsolini is far away unless we sell a bunch of people in attack.

With how much Max changes the systems and plans through the season its hard to see how things will plan out. If Dybala comes through like at the start of the season then the 4-2-3-1 is here to stay.

If he doesn't step up/recover top form decisively, then it might a good idea to sell him as he is the only reason not to play 4-3-3 and sign a top midfielder(s).
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:52 pm

I know its been said, I've had similar discussions here and elsewhere. I just thought a thread highlighting it was worthwhile. We've very quickly done a great job and in the future, this time we've given De Sciglio, Rugani, Bernardeschi, Bentancur, Pjaca and Dybala is surely going to play dividends while slashing the average age of our players quite considerably.

I added Mandragora, I can't believe I forgot him
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Warrior on Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:39 pm

I also forgot someone, shame because it was quite an important point. Sami Khedira #6... i expect and wish that he's gone next season. No fuel left in the tank.

So it leaves one starter spot in the midfield. Bentancur isn't ready, Matuidi is a bench player, Emre Can panic buy at best, Marchisio who knows what's happening between him and Allegri. About Mandragora i have seen only one match of Crotone and we destroyed them, i'll assume he isn't ready. Five solutions that cannot work so it becomes imperative to find a starter CM.

Marotta shall use 95% of his budget for a quality CM. At this point we know damn well who is the best choice available.

4-3-2-1 is the way to go, we need a triangle of Higuain-Dybala-Bernardeschi. Rest of the offensive troops will be an EXCELLENT bench.
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:18 pm

Juventus linked with Strootman again, 45M release clause.

Also, still linked with Can on a free.

Strootman will be 28 next season, he looks to have put his injury woes behind him [knock on wood], and at 45M, I'm not opposed to this transfer. I also happen to think he's incredibly loyal to Roma, which I love to see, and that he won't join us.

As for Can, who is still just 23, I'm optimistic that on a free transfer, this is a very low risk, high reward type of move. A move we have become famous for lately. I'm also not against it.

But if we do sign both these players you can bet that Sergej won't arrive, we may have already been priced out of the transfer and we just don't know it.
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by rincon on Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:34 pm

Strootman I like in general and I rate as a potential starter for us. On the other hand I don't want us to load up on Roma players. I also dont think he joins us out of principle.

Can I'm not so sure. Its low risk and maybe we can get him back on track. He has been looking stagnant for a while.

Sergej looks more and more unlikely with the hype but should be #1 choice.

We are also linked with Serie A boys Cristante and Barella. Both low risk as they wouldn't be prohibitively expensive.

Atalanta is beautiful to watch and Cristante looks like he can do everything. At this level, I want him. I also would wait for the season to be over to see if he is not just hot.

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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:07 pm

Cristante looks like a better version of Khedira physically, makes the same kind of movements, intelligently and position wise. I'm also not against it but if it is between Can, Strootman or Cristante then it is still easily Strootman for me, and if its between those three and Sergej, even easier.

I think, potentially, Matuidi, Strootman and Pjanic is a really strong midfield.

Pjanic at the level of yesterday is World Class, unsurprisingly, it is shown in the best match from Matuidi as well.

I strongly believe we won't sign Sergej, he's going to go for big money and I feel like it will be to the Premier League
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by rincon on Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:55 pm

Its a bit depressing if we sign Strootman and play him with Pjanic and Matuidi. Then we literally just play a poverty version of Roma's midfield as we don't have Strootman instead of De Rossi and Matuidi instead of the much superior Nainggolan.

For a double pivot with Pjanic I vote Strootman. For a mid 3 that has Matuidi I'd prefer a less defensive mezzala than Strootman. Khedira is better for the role imo.

Sergej, Barella and Cristante all look forward, more than Strootman. Can I don't know since I'm not as familiar. Seems similar to Strootman but perhaps a bit sharper on the runs and more technique?
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:26 pm

Well, my idea was that Matuidi and Strootman, more so the latter, would allow Pjanic more freedom to move forward and allow our attackers to do the same. Strootman seems like a very Allegri type of midfielder.

Strootman would be playing the pre-injury 2015 Marchisio role when our midfield was Pogboom-Marchisio-Khedira.

Of course, this is all in my head and Pjanic must be valued for what he is, and that's a very good midfielder.

Can is one of those all action types of midfielders, he can tackle, move, and shoot. I think its his brain that is most questionable. I've seen a decent amount of Liverpool matches and Can can do some pretty unreal things at times. I think he can do quite well at Juve but we'll see.
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by rincon on Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:35 pm

If we sign Strootman (I don't think we will) as I've always wanted I would say we scrap the mid 3. In a good way.

Strootman is the kind of guy that allows the rest to play. With him I see a much better 4231 and then Dybala can continue to be played properly.

If we commit to the 433 we sell Dybala imo. That's fine with me, if he doesn't fit with what's best for the team then there is no point.

I think the solution will lie in between as it does now.
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:52 pm

I have a feeling it will be Allegri or Dybala, easy enough choice for me but we'll see. It's incredible to think that our #10, one of our best paid players, and the player who is supposed to be symbol of the club, is benched for the most important matches of the season. It's even more bizarre when you think that it is his third season and he was not missing in the first two. I know there is some sort of issues, beyond the field that are deeply impacting him. Allegri is quite clear that only players in the best condition will play and you know what? I admire that. I admire that because not only is he sticking to his guns and everything that Juve stands for as a club, but he's getting results while doing it. I remember Del Piero being on the cusp of leaving when Capello was the manager, he said so later but we know how history turned.

Its way too early to close the page on the Dybala- Juve book, but its a very important chapter right now.

Also, the 3 man midfield has been a great source of stability for us and I'm not surprised.

Allegri's 2004 thesis to receive his final coaching certificate was titled:
"Characteristics of Three Midfielders in a Three-Man Midfield"

Once we set up the midfield appropriately, it really makes the rest of the game that much easier in my opinion.

With players like Bentancur, potentially Mandragora, and the group of midfielders we have and are linked to, its a great place for our team to be in. I think were in good hands if Allegri sticks around for many seasons to come.
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by juvealbanian on Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:26 pm

If we'll get Can on a free transfer there's no point on spending 45m for Strootman. Strootman is great and will surely fit our midfield but his lack of pace and his injury history is smth to make you think twice about it.

I'd rather spend that money (and maybe a bit more) on players such Savic,Niguez or Carvalho.
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by DeviAngel on Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:20 pm

Marotta

“The fact Dybala is on the bench takes nothing away from a lad who is growing and is only 24 years old, so he’s still in the maturation process. It’s only right that the Coach evaluates whether he is more effective from the start or off the bench. Games last more than 90 minutes now and you need all your resources.

“A great club has to support its players both on and off the field. It is a difficult moment for Dybala, that is no secret, but he can grow and prove his worth. Naturally, he’s not happy to be on the bench, as nobody is, but he respects and accepts the decision.”

There have been reports Dybala has struggled since breaking up with his long-term girlfriend and also parted company with his agent, while he still doesn’t have a boot sponsor.

“The values of Juventus have been passed down to players over decades and it is a shirt that weighs on you. There can be no lack of motivation or effort, as we proved at the San Paolo last week, in Greece for the Champions League and hopefully tonight too.”

=========

Nedved

Nedved says Dybala, who scored 10 goals in the first six games of the season, is getting too distracted by off-field matters.

"He's 24 and it's normal that he has ups and downs, and obviously he's a player who could get to the very top," Nedved told Sky Sport Italia. "I'd advise him to focus on his football and make lots of sacrifices in his private life and train to the maximum.

"Allegri treats everybody equally and he's always done that at Juve, so he's not been particularly hard on Paulo. He treated Higuain and Mandzukic the same way because he always wants the best from all of his players, and he does right."

======

Allegri

Dybala was not granted a single minute by Allegri, but he reiterated his desire to keep the 24-year-old fresh for the entire season.

"There is absolutely no problem – the problem would be not having him," Allegri told Premium Sport.

"He has done a lot and will do a lot more for Juventus, but right now I'm choosing other players that are just as important as him. The season is long.

"We needed more solidity tonight because Roma are a very physical team, that's all.

"But Paulo is finding the ideal physical and mental form. He plays in a great team and respects the decisions. It's a moment, but it's absolutely not a problem."


Post Juve - Roma

“There are moments when you need some players and moments when you need others. Today we needed solidity. If Dybala had come off the bench, he would’ve done well tonight.

Dybala understands the moment, he respects the decisions and the whole squad wins the game. On Wednesday he put in a great performance in the Coppa Italia against Genoa and I explained when he arrived that he can’t really be a centre-forward.”

======

Buffon

Juve vice-President Pavel Nedved, a former teammate of Buffon’s, had some criticism for Paulo Dybala this week, stating he "has to make a lot of sacrifices in his private life and on the pitch".

“Advice, not criticism,” Buffon clarified.

I know Pavel very well, and with the great career he had he has the right to dispense it. For talent and potential, Paulo is the number one of this Juve.

“The more advice he takes on board, the more chance he’ll have of having a stellar career.”

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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:51 pm

Was there an underlying point for any of those quotes?
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by DeviAngel on Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:56 pm

@Luca wrote:Was there an underlying point for any of those quotes?

Yup Its pretty obvious why Allegri doesn't play Dybala.

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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:03 pm

He doesn’t play him because he’s been extremely poor since his ridiculous start to the season

He even went scoreless in the CL on 30+ shots
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by rincon on Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:04 pm

He doesnt play because he is not playing better than his competition. Simple as that.

The reasons for his form can be whatever.
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:22 pm

@rincon wrote:He doesnt play because he is not playing better than his competition. Simple as that.

The reasons for his form can be whatever.


The rest is irrelevant
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by DeviAngel on Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:57 pm

I know, but I am stating the 'official' reasons for his form, not the BS posts that I read on Macedonian and Juve forums about him being in a fight with Allegri

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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:53 am

Well, there have been rifts before but this is clearly different. I think he's just getting outworked and therefore outperformed by his teammates that want to play and right now, deserve to play in his place.

That's what we did. We made a competitive squad, particularly in attack but you see it elsewhere with Asamoah/Alex Sandro and then even De Sciglio/Lichtsteiner/Barzagli.

Its different because if there really was an issue with Allegri, he wouldn't have started him against Genoa and then complimented him and he wouldn't have even used him as a substitute as he has. He's not frozen out of the team, he's just off form right now- for whatever reason, it doesn't matter.
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Warrior on Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:54 pm

Bernardeschi is damn good, i wish Max gave him Dybala's recent minutes. Best case scenario both would play but it seems impossible nowadays to field our ultimate XI.

Not sure if Dybala should be benched btw, nor do i think he deserves to overtake someone in particular based on merit. I am neutral as long as we win. In any case i wish for a quick come back, the Wingdzukic strategy = playing with fire.
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Luca on Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:08 am

I posted this on another Juve discussion board, I think it is fitting for the Wingdzkuic debate

@Luca wrote:Mandzukic could've easily had two assists, first to Matuidi, then to Higuain. While, I would normally agree that he lacks as a winger, his contribution against Roma was one of his better matches of the entire season. Also, every long ball played went to him and he won every ball. Every goal kick from Szczesny or switch from someone else went up top to Mario who won it, its a dimension that Higuain lacks and is very useful for us to exploit because Mandzukic creates match up problems for every full back in the world. So, either he draws a central defender or midfielder out of position by going wide, or he gets a free header. This is especially useful when it is Alex Sandro, and not Asamoah as the full back because the overlap is always on. The reason Mandzukic was so good last season and now against Roma is because it was Alex Sandro supporting him.

Cuadrado and Mandzukic were very solid against Roma, they were also solid against Inter, the chances just didn't go in and unlike against Roma, we didn't get a goal, so its easier to criticize the performance.

Really, I don't mind. We play a lot of games and we have so many quality players to call upon. The only thing that matters is the team and the results. Its the reason Dybala, for the first time in his three seasons, is hitting the bench for important games.

It's Allegri's world, and were just living in it. And I love it.

This was after the Roma game in response to a discussion of Bernardeschi and Douglas Costa seeing more minutes.

Against Roma, you have Mandzukic at his best, and the distribution part is not something to take lightly. Despite Higuain's size, he has no aerial presence, Mandzukic creates a match up problem for any full back if we take advantage of it. When you have Alex Sandro with him and at the height of his game, its a fun left side to watch.

Bernardeschi will have to take his chances as they've come, I'm completely bought into his talent so my feelings are quite plain here. I want him to play, I just believe he will, when it's right and he'll have a bigger role next season and beyond.

Team first, for sure. That's been a big concept this season because we have never had such depth, particularly in attack
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Re: Juventus: The Next Cycle

Post by Warrior on Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:40 am

I can agree with both posts since they have great arguments, and reality proves you right. "Living in Allegri's world" particularly touched my heart What a Face

My fear is when Max holds Dybala/Bernardeschi/Marchisio from having an important role for too long. He has a tendency these last 2 seasons of making adjustments a couple of weeks too late. The double pivot debate was an example.

Wingzukic works sometimes, of course, yet if we stick to it i can see us dropping points. Against catenaccio it is mostly useless.
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