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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:35 pm

@futbol_bill wrote:Nick, you like to have it both ways. You spent the last two years telling us how bad Zidane was tactically and relied on the experienced individualism to win us the trophies and that Zidane’s only skill was his man management! Then you said we needed a tactical coach and you raved about Lopetequi coming. At start of season you were still high on Lope, but just as quickly when some players couldn’t or wouldn’t play his intense pressure in oposing zone, you jumped off of that bandwagon! Now you are criticizing Solari who is getting the same some good, some very poor results. You are constantly saying the talent is there but we are all seeing faults in Benzema, Bale, Modric, Asensio, Isco, Marcelo and also at times in Kroos, Ramos and Varane.

There will be no doubt some changes in January, but I doubt if any major ones and likely only signiificant departure being Isco!

And if you follow all the rumours, next summer will see exit of some of the declining veterans and the only major entry being Mbappe or Neymar depending upon who (and if) PSG has to sell. The rest of the renewal will be kids, mostly South Americans although the rumour mill seems to be ignoriing the quota limitation of only 3 imports with Vinicius currently occuping one of them.

So the new coach will have to first and foremost be able to manage a group of talented, eagar, likely spoiled kids! The only veterans that you can count on being there will be Courtois, Ramos, Varane and Kroos!
Nah you are wrong at many levels

1) Great coaching always matters, and i would defy you to find me saying otherwise. great coaching is a difference maker

2) my saying that Zidane's success was mainly a product of a great squad does not contradict that, and i continue to maintain we have a great squad/

3) I have always maintained that a team such as ours can just go on with mental guruness and we needed a coach that could make a difference from a tactical point of view, again argument 1). Also, why do you judge a coach after a few weeks despite his struggles? football is not instant ramen. After a few months, if a coach is still not able to COMMUNICATE his ideas and to CONVINCE his players about his ways, then he has failed, it's as simple as that. Also, me liking the appointment of Lopetegui doesnt mean i owe him somekind of loyalty. i really dont care who you are, whether i like you or not, if you are trash and dont make my team win, you should be fired, simple as that.

4) i have hardly talked about Solari, let alone criticized him. He is doing simple things or keeping things simple, and so far he has mostly been successful. He is a 6 month coach in my opinion.

5) we still have talents, those players have not become scrubs 3 months after 3 peating the CL. the form now does not reflect their normal quality, and explanations about their drop in form can be found elsewhere than to say "we are not talented anymore", that's lazy.

6) there wont be much changed in January, if Brahim Diaz is the only kid we sign, that wont surprise me.

7) stop reading AS they are crap, and it's extremely unlikely we sign any of Neymar or Mbappe. people need to come to grip with that, as Perez.

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Post by sportsczy on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:12 pm

And the tragedy Bill is that I feel Isco is a supremely talented player that I personally would overplay even if he needs time to get into a rhythm. As much as I respect Vasquez for his work rate, I don't see the point of playing him over Isco...

But this ship may have sailed unfortunately.

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Post by Thimmy on Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:22 pm

@Mr Nick09 wrote:again, we have a great squad. world class players on every line, and that includes the attack with players like Bale, Isco, Benzema etc... They are all world class players.

oh and yes, our squad is so old, i mean, at 32 ramos needs to stop playing football. who else is old? Keylor 32, Benzema 31, Modric 32. this is unacceptable, really a retirement home. lol


People gave Raul a lot of shit for how much he had declined when he was 31, and I believe he was around the same age when we sold him. It’s not simply about talent. Like Sports already mentioned, some of our players no longer have the stamina they once had, and I suspect they don’t have anywhere near the same degree of motivation either - which is only natural, considering how many trophies they collected during their recent, peak years.

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:40 pm

The only valid argument i can hear in this case is "they have won too much, motivation is an issue" because we did in fact won too much. But i will also say that it will only apply to this season only, i dont see a reason why they will stop wanting to win trophies for perpetuity.

Do we need to bring in new guys to renew the hunger? sure, i think this has always been on the table.

Raul at 31 was properly gased. I dont think it's the same for Ramos, kroos, and Modric. fatigue from the accumulation of matches over the last few seasons + world cup took a toll but they do not look like they are washed up footballers to me.

My only concern would be marcelo because he never looked like he was the fittest of athletes and his position requires more running than others. And effort running to defense has always been a concern with him

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Post by sportsczy on Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:14 pm

It's not just hunger...  it's age.  It's injury.  It's combo of things.  They're declining. Ramos, Marcelo, Benzema and Modric are on the wrong side of 30.  Bale is a shell of himself.  That's half your regular team...  3 of which are your supposed best players and the other your supposed best scorer... and the heir to CR lol.

More than anything we need world class younger players so that our veterans can stop being our core and shift towards becoming support ones.

I think we're fine on defense and keeping obviously.  We have issues in the midfield and serious one ins the attack.

And we lack depth.

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Post by Arquitescu on Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:33 pm

What a great discussion here as the synergy you boys have after years of debating for admittedly The club in Football and maintaining civility is remarkable.

As for Allegri there has been a historic ignorance regarding him.

Beginning with his Milan days in which we have the most emotional, retrospective, convoluted and hindsight laden fans.

Basically any mistake of upper echelon to which was composed of Berlusconi and Galliani mainly (the latter remained great otherwise) was put on him.

Any mistake of our catastrophic defence after Nesta moved (thereby exposing us for what we were and highlighting what a backline maestro Nesta was), was blamed on him.

Selling key players in the form of Thiago Silva, Zlatan fucking Ibrahimovic, and not replacing the retired legends by anyone relevant of any talent bar El Shaarawy saving our whole season; blamed on him.

Yet the last time we won Serie A and had some remarkable performances in the UCL, was with him and have been pure dross ever since.

When he arrived at Juve his very vehicle was egged because most top club fans are incapable of forming their own comprehensive decision and he has made a highly consistent Juventus and CL final losses to a ridiculous Barcelona and a 4 time in 5 year UCL winning Real Madrid and despite the lack of fellow Elite teams within the league, one has to see him perform under a microscope more gauge what a talented coach he is.

His coaching mind is second to none and you will not find really any better in terms of purist tactical ability. It is odd though as before his top club stints he truly built a hand in some very exciting attacking football but slowly transcended into calculative and sometimes all too tactical football.

Which brings me to his greatest problem. In which within the season he lacks conviction in his own abilities and frequently can be too reactive if he see's the most minor errors within the game, therefore disrupts the balance with misplaced substitutions (despite some brilliance on that in UCL and Serie A) and completely unnecessary changes to a well working system, and his strong but self-doubting Juventus are an example of that as was his 3rd year in Milan.

Aside from that his man-management is highly overlooked as he had no problem taking on the old Milan legends and clearly none with Superstars; Zlatan Ibrahimovic an example as so far Cristiano whom these two seem to have a very healthy relationship.

He continues to grow as a manager and learn within his teams yet his lack of conviction within his own systems at times, are frequently a downfall, as otherwise his tactical acumen is world class.

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:43 pm

Ok so now it's a combination of things? ok. our key players at 31, 32 are not old to be point they need o be kicked aside. In this modern age, plenty of athletes continue to enjoy their primes at 32 if not older because fitness and preparation is not what it used to be.

6 months ago they pulverized Liverpool in CL final, now they are not good enough anymore Laughing it's called form.

Young players are always sexier when they play for another team. It was a forgone conclusion here that Casemiro had no back up, and even you sports was here claiming problems with Llorente because of attitude or what not, i guess your sources in the locker room told you that.

The kid just put together 7 elite games showing he has quality and attitude to perform for us. If we can't even afford to grow an to bank on the young players we have, what's the point in signing new ones for 100 mil a pop?

We have quality youngsters, not all of them will become world class players but they are quality enough to provide depth to this team. and again, a lack of coaching has been at fault here to put them in positions to succeed, from last season with Zidane to this one.

Example with Lopetegui, Marcelo goes down, and instead of relying on Reguilon, he starts experimenting some 352 out of panic and it goes poorly. I mentioned Llorente earlier. I can talk about other players who are not afforded the environment to succeed. Talent we have plenty enough.


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Post by sportsczy on Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:55 pm

Your argument are truly terrible dude..

Don't tell me you don't see Ramos, Marcelo, Modric, Bale and Benzema declining for the past 2 years... The signs are inconsistency, injury and loss of athleticism.  

And no, even today, players that hit 30 start to lose it thereafter in football.  The ones that don't rely on athleticism and/or have very high football IQ age better...  but none of our older players fall into that category except one.

The only one I would consider a high IQ player that can compensate for loss of athleticism is Modric... but he's 33.  I think his consistent elite days are reaching an end.

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Post by sportsczy on Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:01 pm

@Arqi... yeah, I'm a fan of his. If he's let go, he would be on top of my list even ahead of Poche. Poche is a fine manager... but people forget that Allegri has taken Juve to CL Finals. He's won Serie A with two different teams. He's more battle tested to me.

Also, I just think he's a good dude. AND, I have a soft spot for Italian misters as I think they're the best in the world.

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:15 pm

My arguments are only terrible because i'm telling you you are wrong Laughing somehow this is an habit of yours, always telling people they dont know anything when they take the opposite position in an argument with you, because you knew Zidane in your youth (surprised you havent brought it up yet)

PLayers declining does not mean they go from heros to zeros in 6 months. Let's illustrate this with numers/ratings . If Modric at his peak was a 9.5, then he is now a 8.5/9 when in form. Thats decline, but is he still an excellent player? absolutely. Are his current performances impacted by fatigue, accumulation of matches, injuries, motivation? yes, but that doesnt mean we must immediately kick him out.

There is this thing called experience and leadership which is sometimes invaluable with players in that age range which we need in bundle right now. And i will say it again that Bale, Marcelo, Ramos, Benzema, and Modric are still top players in today's game. It's quite baffling that we are here arguing about this. Is the club thinking about tomorrow and how to better replace those key players, absolutely. and you can see that in the young players we sign and even the targets the club is looking at. How many times have i read from Marca/EC about Eriksen being looked at to replace Modric; two days ago we were linked with Junior Firpo for Marcelo; Hazard is still being rumored every week, etc...

The argument that all those players were good enough to deliver a champions league in june and are now finished scrubs who can't play at Eibar is absolutely ridiculous. Form and Quality should not be mistaken. We were all looking at CR here at the start of the last season and all saying that he is cooked. and then he turned up the screw since January and he went back to his level. how old is he? 33. older than our finished oldies, that's odd isn't? how old is chiellini, bonnucci? 34? what? good grace.

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Post by Thimmy on Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:39 pm

To be fair, Chiellini and Bonucci are definitely not at the level they were at, a few years ago. They’re both intelligent and athletic players who play with grit, but I think it’s been fairly apparent in recent years that they’re not at their physical best anymore. I genuinely think the two of them are Juve’s most exploitable weakness when they play against other, European teams.

Cr is currently being rested for Juve’s next match. Him being rested was unheard of, a few years ago. He’s not one who does a lot of defensive work, or makes lots of non-offensive runs off the ball either. He’s transitioned into a top class poacher in recent years. I don’t know if that was a deliberate move on his part, but it was the natural thing for him to do after his speed, pace and stamina went down. A few Barca fans on here criticized him for no longer scoring from outside the box at the same rate that he used to, or for «relying too much on pens», but that’s just him playing to his strengths. He’s no longer the speedy, diving, show pony that we bought from Man United.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:46 pm

@Thimmy, of course they are not in their prime, neither is CR, nor Messi, etc... A player's career is like a bell curve, sudden drop from the top are rare, but on either side of the top they can still be at a high level.

I am pretty sure i have have seen all those oldies perform at the highest levels of european football in the past 2-3 years, because those are the players who win you trophies imo. It's like people expect all players to be at 100% their abilities now.

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Post by titosantill on Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:16 pm

The funny thing here is, both arguments are correct. A coach is necessary; nothing against solari, but I dont think he is ready to take that mantle of actually building a team; a proper team, not a team of youth teammates

We do need players. No mitnick, they didnt decline overnight. In actuality, we have been talking about new players for at least 2 or 3 seasons. We won ucl but also lost the league in October and have also now lost cristiano.

About the age issue, the question is how long do you want to keep starting the same dudes? Not everyone is cristiano who can change their game. At 31, 32 are u gonna still squeeze that fruit for another 2 3 years or just get something new? For the record Raul declined by 27, not 31

He had two seasons where there seemed to be a rejuvenation. But from the eye test he wasnt the same raul, not even close. He scored 18 league goals in 08 and 09, but he was far from good...far from it. Going into next season with this exact squad, even if we win ucl , is suicide. And it's not a 1 signing solution
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Post by Doc on Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:28 pm

Yeah, both Nick and Sports actually make legit points but from my own point of view, the squad needs rejuvenation. Pretty obvious at this point. Sign some legit talented players and let the pieces fall where they may. If Modric, Benzema, Bale, etc are as good as they think they are, it'll be fine. If not, they'll be replaced.

Also, 2003-2004 season is where Raul (for me) started to decline. It was really visible.

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Post by Thimmy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:49 pm

Raul played great for Schalke after he left us. It was painfully obvious that he no longer had the legs and lungs to keep up with the likes of CR and Benz in their early 20s, but Schalke managed to get the best out of him while he was there.

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Post by titosantill on Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:10 am

Schalke level raul wasnt what madrid needed. Also him and Schalke had a bit of a crisis at first, remember they fired magath in the middle of the season.

Point here is, you notice some issues with your car, you dont just change the driver without addressing the engine and other important parts
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:10 pm

Here is Marca first article from Jose Fe;ix Diaz about the coaching candidates Madrid are looking at, poll is up on Marca as well

https://www.marca.com/futbol/real-madrid/2019/03/06/5c7fb58b268e3ec67d8b45a8.html

-Klopp
-Allegri
-Pochettino

Zidane and Mourinho are not talked about as targets, but they were added to the poll nonetheless.

I have a feeling we will try to go back to Zidane providing we completely turn over the squad, because those 3 managers may keep their jobs next summer, Klopp especially, he is the commitment type. for Pochettino, you have to pay a huge sum to get him and Allegri would be daft to leave a team with CR

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Post by farfan on Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:18 pm

Weren't there talks about Allegri trying to resign last week? hmm this might truly be his last season with Juve.
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Post by rincon on Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:29 pm

@farfan wrote:Weren't there talks about Allegri trying to resign last week? hmm this might truly be his last season with Juve.

That was just tabloid talk for the run up of the Napoli game to make it all the more dramatic "Allegri offered to resign before the trip to the San Paolo!!"

Regardless, there is a chance that this is his last season. The board meets with Allegri at the end of every season to evaluate the project and it's future, and then they make a decision. The relationship is great form both sides, but it's his 5th season and motivation is evaluated.
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Post by vanDEEZ on Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:31 pm

I think Poch and Allegri are the most likely candidates. As I've talked about at length, I definitely favor Poch- I think he has more upside and edges Allegri in terms of tactics and bringing out the quality in players. Allegri obviously has the edge in the trophy department, but as I have mentioned- if the tactics are good and the right investments are made, the trophies will come.

I don't think Klopp is a likely candidate. He seems happy at Liverpool (though maybe not right now), where he has undying support of the fans and board. He would not get that at RM.
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Post by titosantill on Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:35 pm

florentino doesn't like coaches who wear tracksuits instead of a suit and tie lol

in all seriousness, i just hope whoever comes is given the right tool to succeed, and isn't coming here to be a stooge. he should have a list of players he wants, and how he plans on using them to gain results. that to me should be the first step, then we can kick start our overhaul that should have happened some time ago

since we are out of all 3 comps, and there's no chance for some ucl miracle flo and his team have ample time to start carrying out interviews and negotiations with agents. it will be foolish to leave things till last minute in the summer. in actuality these past results were a good reality check. we can stop lying to ourselves now and start building something new
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Post by Clutch on Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:57 pm

@tito when has flo actually given a coach that much power besides Mourinho? And that was because of his stint in Inter and maybe paying respects for stopping Barca from winning UCL in Madrid that year. If Zidane couldnt get full control of transfers than no one will

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Post by Doc on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:31 pm

And the only reason Jose got it was that it was in his contract, bound by law lol. But I still agree with tito, the next manager should actually be given some say in which players he needs.

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Post by titosantill on Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:09 pm

@clutch, that's exactly my point, flo hasn't done that except once, and its high time he looks to do something different because tried and tested hasn't been great, that it worked with zidane doesn't mean it'll work with everyone, we've probably had more failures with the over arching style of managers having little input than success.....hence part of why we fire a lot of them

i'm not saying give him a blank cheque, i'm not saying permit him to come to training with his draws, some fire crackers and a bottle of Hennessy. but the manager's input is more than important. the so called great managers that people rave about all have strong input in how their teams are built

and if flo doesn't trust anyone to give them that level of respect (i will use the word respect, rather than authority), then don't hire them. imo the candidates that the club interview or negotiate with who demand little to nothing and are very nice guys are the ones we should NOT hire

flo is a great president imo, but i think he seems to take things to the extreme ends of the spectrum , a middle ground does exist. you don't have to spend 1 billion and you also don't have to go cold turkey with transfers. same with respect to relations with managers/manager's input


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Post by Mr Nick09 on Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:12 pm

According to Pedrerol, we have asked Zidane to come back and he said he would give his response in june

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Post by titosantill on Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:15 pm

its weird but i don't think i want zidane back . i'm not in the group that likes to poo poo all his achievements here, but i have doubts about him building the squad, we might just end up seeing the exact same squad next season, with some minor changes like isco asensio getting more minutes
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