Time for Zidane to man up

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Time for Zidane to man up

Post by The Madrid One on Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:48 pm

Enough of this 4312 bullcrap, it is an overated pos, Madrid ended up being the worse side over the two legs because of this monstrosity and we have seen drawbacks time and again in the past. Zidane has to make the right tactical decisions, either field 442 shape like in psg, 4411 like in second half here, or 433 with the men at the sides, Benz benched. Same story every season, we have great players but tactical choices influenced by trash reasons limit us. Enough is enough. Wake up Zidane.

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by Doc on Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:27 pm

I really thought he would have given up this 4-3-1-2 shit but nope, can't seem to give it up.

It is decisions like that that contributed to us losing La Liga by November and literally cost us to blew a 3 goal lead in a QF tie in the UCL. Zidane really needs to get better at coaching thing.

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:07 am

problem is that zidane can't drop modric-casemiro-kroos, and he also knows just how good Isco is. Another problem is that you can't play Isco as left winger like he plays for Spain because of CR, it's not easy...

my unpopular opinion is that Isco should start in the 3 man midfield, he is better than one of the next to casemiro...figure it out... it's gonna be an interesting summer

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by titosantill on Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:23 am

i suggested signing an attacking midfielder once upon a time, but they aren't popular because "they don't track back"; i don't care about them tracking back though, i'm more concerned with their ability to feed the forwards. isco did have a moment where he could have scored, can't remember off my head, but he had the time to at least put the ball on his right foot and curl it, but chose to let it run and hit it straight at buffon

this isn't the right place to post this, but with an attacking midfielder who can break tough defenses, as well a proper rw, we can alternate between 4 3 3 and a proper 4 2 3 1; ironically zidane doesn't seem to find an attacking mid he likes (btw i don't want hazard at all, regardless of what he's classified as)
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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:32 am

there is no such attacking midfielder that can break through tough defenses, havent seen an elite one in like 10 years

isco can play behind the CF in a 4231 just fine, but you would need actual wingers who stretch the defense wide. this can't happen with CR in the team, and CR is not a CF so the 4231 can't work in madrid.

you forget just how difficult it is to gameplan with CR as a player, he is positionless, and you have to gameplan around him.

What Zidane has figured out is CR is very good in a 442, as one of the two CF where he can play free. Likewise with the 4312, he is free man. but our version of the 4312 is done without any box to box and Modric and Kroos are wonderful playmakers and passers, but they dont have the engine to go box to box all game, so Isco can't stick behind the CF. If you look, he is always dropping, going wide on the left to save Kroos etc...

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by sportsczy on Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:43 am

The biggest problem is that the second striker next to Ronaldo has been completely useless this year... Benzema and Bale.

We're attacking with 1 less man and defending with 8. And as Nick mentioned, we are gameplanning around CR and deservedly so.

Marcelo's defensive issues also force us to play a DM most games.

This isn't as easy as people make it out to be.

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by Doc on Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:49 am

Well, he and the club did have an entire summer transfer to fix certain glaring issues.

In any case, Zidane lives another day to get it right again.

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by FennecFox7 on Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:50 am

@sportsczy wrote:The biggest problem is that the second striker next to Ronaldo has been completely useless this year... Benzema and Bale.

We're attacking with 1 less man and defending with 8. And as Nick mentioned, we are gameplanning around CR and deservedly so.

Marcelo's defensive issues also force us to play a DM most games.

This isn't as easy as people make it out to be.

This is basically it. We are basically playing with 10 men when we play with benz or bale. I partially disagree with nick. CR is a CF.. he just doesn't stay in position which is normal. The problem has nothing to do with him, it has everything to do with whats around him.

Marcelo and carvajal aren't defensive rocks by any means.. which makes the 4-3-1-2 incredibly difficult to play because you have no wingers helping out when they mess up, which is often.

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by titosantill on Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:59 am

then a proper right winger, who can be creative; not another inverted wing-forward, obviously a cf, but let's not get into that. to be honest i like willian, but i feel ridiculous bringing his name up cos i know he's not even on the club's radar. cristiano will do his thing, he can adapt (he doesn't get much credit for that), the only partner he hardly worked well with was ruud, and cristiano was a kid then.

marcelo needs a mentor, that's all i can say. sometimes i wonder how we've achieved what we have with him and ramos who both have their moments of madness, and now carvajal too is beginning to show some signs i'm not liking, coupled with his temper
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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by The Madrid One on Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:01 am

Zidane has to impose damage limitations, see what we can press positionally better with, control game tempo with, and also be secure and stable with. There is no perfect solution among many but they're not equal and 4312 has run its course.

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:25 am

@FennecFox7 wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:The biggest problem is that the second striker next to Ronaldo has been completely useless this year... Benzema and Bale.

We're attacking with 1 less man and defending with 8. And as Nick mentioned, we are gameplanning around CR and deservedly so.

Marcelo's defensive issues also force us to play a DM most games.

This isn't as easy as people make it out to be.

This is basically it. We are basically playing with 10 men when we play with benz or bale. I partially disagree with nick. CR is a CF.. he just doesn't stay in position which is normal. The problem has nothing to do with him, it has everything to do with whats around him.

Marcelo and carvajal aren't defensive rocks by any means.. which makes the 4-3-1-2 incredibly difficult to play because you have no wingers helping out when they mess up, which is often.
Ronaldo is not a Center Forard, that actually refers to where you are located on the pitch, he is a striker, goalscorer if you prefer, but he doesnt play the role of CF like lewandowski does at Bayern. It's his privelege, he earned it.

So positionally CR brings you problems you have to deal with. Mourinho tried playing 4231 for 3 years, flopped. Benitez came to Madrid, played 4231, flopped. CR has found positional freedom under Carlo and Zidane was smart to follow the blueprint, dont reinvent the wheel. Zidane only plays CR as lone CF in limited situations.

If we sign a CF like Lewandowski this summer, we might as well focus on playing 442 more and more, because he is not the type to go wide, and cross the ball in. Conservatively, that is what i see happening, Zidane already enjoys his 442.

The ideal type of CF you want next to CR is someone like Mbappe, who is equally great at playing across the forward, he would allow you more tactical freedom. I can't think of anyone like him on the market except for Martial, but he is not good enough. Maybe Kun actually

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by titosantill on Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:52 am

mourinho didn't flop cos of his formation, he flopped for other reasons. i actually believe our team that won la liga with mourinho is possibly the best madrid side i have ever seen. obviously ramos happened in that ucl semis, and ozil would only play well for the first 60 mins of games then get tired. but that was a deep side with talent everywhere; callejon kaka higuain (i forget the turkish dude's name, the one who never played a midfielder from dortmund), all on the bench

rafa was putting bale as an attacking mid iirc that's a personnel issue not formation, and he had some weird formations i couldn't describe, but that too was a flop for other reasons than just what formation was put out there. mourinho had something great at madrid, that he could build upon once they matured, but his poor people skills ripped it to shreads
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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by Doc on Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:56 am

Sahin I think you're referring to

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:13 am

the team we won the double with last season was better than any mou team, we had everything last season, big game performances late in the season, good league run, clutch performers, deep bench. Mou's team flopped in CL.

Perez hired Benitez with a mission to make Bale shine, and thus Benitez played him in the same role he had at Spurs, behind the CF. I think it would have worked if we had proper spacing wide, but because CR was not interested in being a winger, and Isco is not a right winger, it was a massive flop.

A 4231 only works if your wingers space the pitch, go wide and leverage the half space. Bayern are running it beautifully with Heynckes, it's his bread and butter. flank two wingers around you CF and AM, and it's a simple recipe.

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by titosantill on Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:46 am

the team we won the double with that most of you on here complained about all through? that most say "cristiano carried us to it" (which he did at least ucl)? that team was utilized well by zidane with the bench and we did it we repeated the ucl and won the league. the la liga team of mourinho had everything except the final hurdle, and where interesting to watch too, cos he had an array of players and had splashed so much cash. the best i have seen from 91 till now was that side, we lost the ucl on PKs, it happens....strikers on form, deep bench, 2 players for every position. last season's was the most successful, but i recall the other zidane thread that guest made bashing him, started last season (even though his criticism was way off)

the biggest problem with 4 2 3 1 is the midfield 2. there's a lot of strain on them, especially when only one is a proper dm, and with 2 dm's you lose someone to distribute the ball. i'm not even saying i want us to go back to it but it can be an alternative to our standard formation, it all depends on personnel
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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:53 am

the league performances last season, specially in the first half were poor. It the second half of the season, we maintained a good level and most importantly, we wont clutch game in CLs and trashed Juve in finals. I would put up last year team against any madrid team in the past 20 years and feel good they would win. In big games all the players showed up and they were elite.

Zidane is already using 442 as his alternative tactics though, it's not that different from the 4231. We just can't play a n10 in this team with CR again, that's a no go.

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Re: Time for Zidane to man up

Post by terrance511 on Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:23 pm

my best madrid pick was carlo 442

what we had with mou and carlo was a team that opponent would fear. even thou it destroyed by their own hand in the end. Remembering weeks in weeks out we went into match  with confidence regardless of opponent, that's some nice feeling i miss for some times.

agreed he needs to man up, but not like optimizing a formation until it seem working, but instead comes up with a total plan on what u want to build.
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