Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

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Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:38 pm

For years i've thought that the futbol forums i've visited have somewhat lacked the serious level of tactical and technical discussion/analysis that i imagine possible, so here i introduce this thread where we can discuss, ask questions, analyze, and share more "seriously" about tactics and Real Madrid matches past and present.

P.S. This is a friendly zone where all comments are welcome, i'm no pro and i may even be an incompetent at analyzing football but i'll still try. Laughing

Some References:

Tactical Boards
- http://sharemytactics.com  (for 11 v 11 analysis)
- http://lineupbuilder.com (for single team lineups)

Recommended Literature:
- "Talking Tactics: You'll Never Look At Football The Same Way Again." By Mihail Vladimirov and Bob Pearce. (Best tactics book i've read)
- http://www.ecosdelbalon.com/
- http://www.zonalmarking.net/

Full Matches:
- http://footballia.net/ (extensive historical libraries you can watch with a free account)
- http://footballfullmatch.com/ (for more recent matches)
- https://www.reddit.com/r/soccerstreams/ (for live matches)


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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:38 pm

I think i'll try to write up something after our first pre season game but in the meantime, i guess here are some schematics that can work as food for thought about ways we might play this season.

The idea with Lopetegui i feel should be to try to aim at playing a balanced way so that we can activate the strengths of our players and remain good in transitions in both attack and defense. Meaning we can't neglect our counter attacking abilities or our abilities to defend well when caught open or in the break. We have enough players and the type of players so that we can play in several ways, but there should be principles such as good pressing mechanics and team work ethic that are essential. We have to be able to activate Bale and activate Benzema more as a scoring option. In terms of the league if we don't manage to score as many goals as before then maybe that can be countered by not conceding as many and having more control of games.

If Kovacic stays i wonder if he can be converted into the Pivot in a 433 setup and learn to play competently at defense while offering more in terms of agility to move around and perhaps playing some simple distribution passes.






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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by Turok_TTZ on Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:50 pm

Bale prefers the left side why are you putting him on the right? he is the main man. the main gets everything his way. why is asensio on the left? he aint bale.

Kovacic if he stays will have no problems playing cm. he did play holding mid at inter if im not mistaken and he has a good workrate so double pivot shouldnt be a problem.

that 442/4-2-4 however looks disgusting lol.

We have to take the idea of possession more into account. I dont think we'll go the 4231 route as that is a more counter/direct oriented formation than possession.

possession requires 3 cms or 2 cms 1 dm to control the midfield. 4231 favors sacrificing control imo in favor of quick counter attacking or long balls. unless the roles are different in that the cam drop deep and so does the cf in which i can see it working.

a 442 is a more balanced approach depending on the role of the 2nd cf and the roles of the wings. based on reports we might be rolling with this. but we wont know for sure until preseason starts.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:02 pm

I start Bale on the right here because he could come in and shoot with his left foot that way. The player positions i give here are reductive suggestions btw, there's more to it that i'd have to write more or share more graphics to further explain.

I put the 4222 as i was reminded of the one Carlo used in early 14/15 and that we played well with.

If i am not mistaken Spain won the 2010 world cup playing a 4231/4213, the 4123 variants might be the best for possession football but i think there will be room this season for using different schematics and i also don't think we will obsess over tiki taka the way i think some think we will. You can still be well rounded with a 4231ish shape.

As for Kovacic, if he can become a well positioned single pivot with efficiciency and impact yet simple distribution from the back and onto the main orchestrators then that would be welcome.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by Turok_TTZ on Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:12 pm

@The Madrid One wrote:I start Bale on the right here because he could come in and shoot with his left foot that way. The player positions i give here are reductive suggestions btw, there's more to it that i'd have to write more or share more graphics to further explain.

I put the 4222 as i was reminded of the one Carlo used in early 14/15 and that we played well with.

If i am not mistaken Spain won the 2010 world cup playing a 4231/4213, the 4123 variants might be the best for possession football but i think there will be room this season for using different schematics and i also don't think we will obsess over tiki taka the way i think some think we will. You can still be well rounded with a 4231ish shape.

As for Kovacic, if he can become a well positioned single pivot with efficiciency and impact yet simple distribution from the back and onto the main orchestrators then that would be welcome.

THATS a 4222? sure fooled me. wat you say is true. formation has its preferences but roles ultimately decide how the style is and how the formation is used.

Do not forget TMO that a double pivot requires both in the dm spot to be very athletic. Kovacic at least has great acceleration so he should be fine but casemiro i dont think is mobile enough for the role.

Bale has been wanting the left side since he came here. he is most comfortable on the left as thats where he played at spurs when he broke out. i understand the reasoning but I think now that Bale is the main man, he will demand that left side for himself. we also have to take into consideration the players feelings.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:42 pm

Ya, here's a graphic of the 14/15 4222.



But i think 4123 and 4231 variants will get most action in that order if anything. 4222 suggestion is me f'ing around a bit. It is ideal for both DM's to be good athletes but not entirely necessary depending on context and how team plays, Casemiro would always stay back in any case with Kroos staying back as well and also Modric although he would prob venture out a bit more.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by sportsczy on Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:05 pm

Bale prefers the right actually. He likes to cut in so he can shoot on goal with his left foot. That's where he thrived with Spurs. His days as a left winger were before the days before he became a major goalscoring threat.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by Turok_TTZ on Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:41 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Bale prefers the right actually.  He likes to cut in so he can shoot on goal with his left foot.  That's where he thrived with Spurs.  His days as a left winger were before the days before he became a major goalscoring threat.
wasnt he always a goal scoring threat? u can't say he isn't he's just always been injured so often that he cant show consistently that hes one hell of a threat.
thats news to me. he prefers the right now has he said this recently? I recall him having his agent pushing Florentino to have him be put on the left. you certain of this Sports?
this changes a lot of things if it's true

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by sportsczy on Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:47 pm

Well central a lot of the times (behind the CF)... but shading right a lot too.  The idea is that he came onto his left foot when he came inside.  He is so one footed that he could only cross when he played left.  They moved away from being a winger to more of a striker/playmaker.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by Turok_TTZ on Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:08 pm

didnt he score a lot of goals for spurs? he was being played on the left when was at spurs.

i agree with the rest. you should always have all forwards Dominant foot on the opposite angle of goal.

there are reports that mentioned the plan is for Benz and Bale to play together. what are your thoughts on it Sports?
how do you see us playing?; I'm having a troubling time trying to fit those two with isco and asensio because of the lopeteguis supposed favoritism to the Spanish players

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by vanDEEZ on Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:07 am

He was scoring the most for Spurs when he had a free role, mostly through the center or cutting in from the right though.
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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by titosantill on Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:12 pm

he had a free role at spurs but he beasted on the left, i don't know where the thought of him preferring the right came from cos carlo played him on the right and he started whining and crying and his agent started a fuss. then rafa came and promised to play him centrally (which was one of the most ridiculous things i ever heard). the rw affords him the luxury of cutting in and shooting but it doesn't mean he likes it, his style is different from say a prime robben, who can dribble well enough to pull that off

plus at spurs especially in those battles with inter most of the damage he did was from the left not from the right channel. i would rather see him play out left, that's where he can use his pace more, than down the right where u'd also have to resort to being a skilled dribbler to have the ball on your stronger foot

we won't know what our formation or tactics would be yet until we complete our transfers. i highly doubt the club is planning to go into a season with bale who's always a minute away from a doctor's visit and benzema who was downright pathetic for the bulk of last season.....especially with the kind of rivals we have
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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by vanDEEZ on Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:20 pm

Can you cite any article where Bale "whined" because he was played on the right? It just seems like you're making things up to fit this narrative you've created. He played LB/LW early in his career for Spurs, closer to the end of his Spurs career (when we were tracking him) he was playing primarily on the right and through the center.

Since coming to Madrid he's almost exclusively played on the right, so I really really don't understand where you're coming from if you want him to now switch to the left.
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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by sportsczy on Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:40 pm

With Madrid, he was hugging the line on the right and there wasn't room for him to cut in like he did at Spurs.

With the Spurs, he was keying off the right side and almost always ending up in the middle in a scoring position.

"on the right" are two very different cases for Bale in terms of how it unfolded at Madrid and Spurs.

@Tito... he was playing a free role with the Spurs his last 2 years. But they were really concentrating on getting him on his strong foot in scoring positions. So it ended up being mostly central and some right. .

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:20 pm

Bale isn't talented or reliable enough to build a team around him the way we did with Ronaldo in our current team context.

Here's an article about what titosantill mentioned.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/13822/news/2016/05/16/23602342/ancelotti-bales-agent-asked-real-madrid-president-to-change

Bale and Perez still boil my blood with their bs to be honest. In any case we should be past that and realize that as per what the team needs Bale should play at the right side of the pitch and be activated as a wide forward that can do all that is asked of him. Only way to play him more central that i can imagine is a 4222 as i mentioned or a false 9 433 setup perhaps but nah.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by titosantill on Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:32 pm

@vanDEEZ wrote:Can you cite any article where Bale "whined" because he was played on the right? It just seems like you're making things up to fit this narrative you've created. He played LB/LW early in his career for Spurs, closer to the end of his Spurs career (when we were tracking him) he was playing primarily on the right and through the center.

Since coming to Madrid he's almost exclusively played on the right, so I really really don't understand where you're coming from if you want him to now switch to the left.


http://www.espn.com/soccer/real-madrid/story/2875319/carlo-ancelotti-i-was-asked-to-change-gareth-bale-role-at-real-madrid

paragraph 7 of bale wanting to play more centrally, number two, even before that article came out we had discussions here on this forum about bale's agent speaking to flo with respect to bale wanting a switch of roles....he was obviously not going to be moved to the left because of cristiano. and we had that debate on here around the time we played juve when they knocked us out/around when we drew against i believe valencia that saw barcelona surge to winning the treble

http://www.marca.com/en/football/real-madrid/2016/05/18/573c33f7268e3ed14d8b467d.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3235520/Gareth-Bale-happy-playing-preferred-position-grew-frustrated-stuck-wing-season.html

paragraph 6 and 7 are quotes from bale himself, so you don't say i made that up too.
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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by sportsczy on Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:10 pm

again, that's because Madrid literally asked him to be a right winger... as opposed to starting right or central and ending up in scoring positions.

I watched the Spurs.  Van Deez watched them a ton more than I as he was a big fan of Van Der Vaart.  I'm telling you that Deez is absolutely right about Bale's positioning. His last 2 years, he had a free role but was mostly playing central or right. His left wing play was a thing long gone.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by titosantill on Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:29 pm

all i'm saying is, if he's not happy there, as based on the quote in that last article, he shouldn't play there. now by the process of elimination, he wasn't talking about the left wing because he doesn't play there....so what else could he be talking about? he's always played on the right flank as a wing forward, not as a side midfielder. that's all he's played as since he's joined us

however, we've used him centrally before under rafa, and unless we've forgotten we complained about that as well as rafa's formations on here. bale did well there against teams we would normally beat, but against sevilla villareal and barca it didn't work because he isn't a ten. i'm fine with him continuing down the right if he wants that. i definitely don't want him playing as a 'false ten' or any new concept we want to create for that role....

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by sportsczy on Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:47 pm

No... but the Ronaldo role starting right where he has the freedom to go central... that's perfect for him IF we were building the attack around Bale, which I wouldn't.

Much prefer a balanced approach given we have Isco, Asensio, Bale and Benzema. And given Marcelo's talents, we would obviously do much better focusing left if we need to focus.

Bale needs to adapt to us more than we need to adapt to Bale. This is his opportunity though.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by Turok_TTZ on Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:13 pm

we really will see wont we sports?

what are the odds Bale is going to try to do his best CR7 impression?

in my view I believe the attack should be balanced and the responsibility of scoring shared given with the talent we got . but whether we get that is really completely up to bale and lopetegui. mostly the former.

all of this is moot till we see bale playing. will he try to shoulder the burden left by cr7 alone or will he look to share the burden with his teammates? even before signing a new forward, I think this is the most important question we face.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:17 pm

As i said, Bale is not that type of player to be able to replace Ronaldo, not right talent, skill set, health, team context, or even mindset probably.  We should have a balanced team and share the burden, i'm already starting to cringe at thinking of this team bending over for bale in any way. He's a wide forward who likes to drift in and shoot, make forward runs, get into scoring positions, but he's no Ronaldo. Ronaldo had more skill sets to be able to be a goal scoring predator in the box.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by Turok_TTZ on Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:24 pm

@The Madrid One wrote:As i said, Bale is not that type of player to be able to replace Ronaldo, not right talent, skill set, health, team context, or even mindset probably.  We should have a balanced team and share the burden, i'm already starting to cringe at thinking of this team bending over for bale in any way. He's a wide forward who likes to drift in and shoot but he's no Ronaldo.

I don't think he is either but what we think doesn't matter. it's what the player thinks of himself. will he try to emulate CR7 or will he see the bigger picture?

this club has predominantly been more about player power vs manager  and bale has just been given the keys to the team being the new main man.

well like I said we won't really know until the first game is played. but we do know that he is the new main man. how he handles it will decide a lot of roles that the rest of the team in mid and frontline plays.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:19 pm

7/31/2018: Manchester United vs Real Madrid Preseason Game

Saw the first half again, here are some bites:

United played 352, we played 433, united weren't pressing all too intensely or high, preferring to stand off around the middle of the pitch whilst we were mildly/moderatley pushing higher up with our marking. Put 2 and 2 together and thus logically we had more of the ball.

Casilla did not look good under pressure with his feet, i liked the attacking play and speed of Odriozola (his youthful appearance and running reminds me of Flash from The Incredibles  Laughing ), i liked Bale's movements as he was making himself available in attack and defense and had a good half overall, and i saw a interchanging mobility between Valverde, Llorente, and Ceballos, which makes me think we might see much less of Casemiro compared to recent seasons if this is how Lopetegui wants his midfield to move around. Ceballos looked lively, we will see how he progresses, still leaves me a little cold and i see a few over excited with him imo. Vallejo didn't have the best of starts but i wouldn't dig his grave yet.

In the first goal Theo got out witted and Sanchez was given too much space and time as Fede and Llorente were caught asleep (in part because of their interchanging imo) while the cb's didn't really do enough to step out in time.

Fede didn't have the best of games but i at least appreciate his willingness to just launch those long balls, maybe he was a bit nervous so his accuracy, intensity, decision making wasn't all there at the right moments, but when i see him i see things  Embarassed . Llorente looked good with his turning and moving around.

Now that i see the second goal, a lot of it has to do with the positioning of the midfield, because of the mentioned mobility, Ceballos is too far up, Llorente is where Ceballos should be, and Valverde was prob not ready for the situation to catch up to Herrera in time.  Herrera had a key role in both goals.

Around the 33 min mark during the water break team changes to more of a 442 (4222) shape with Bale and Benz playing more centrally. Seeing as how i recall that in the second half we played 4231 and 442 then it looks like Lopetegui tried out the 3 shapes i suggested a few days ago. Benz and Bale moved well to help create the late goal. Positive first half.

Here are some pictures:

Here's a pic where you can see the midfield positioning, doubt Casemiro can play like that


Example of high pressure


Snapshot where you can tell why we conceded 1st goal


Midfield not positioned too well, in part because of the aforementioned instructed mobility of the 3


Concede again from similar position and reasons as in first goal

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by Turok_TTZ on Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:14 am

Did we switch formation after the 33rd minute? maybe i need to watch the match again... though I kinda saw a mix between 433 and 4231 in the first half due to the way ceballos was moving.

the following pics I'm about to post is what I was expecting to see. the lines represent their movements and maybe to an extent their roles. Solid lines is more emphasized and primary, dotted lines are secondary.
Here is what I expected:


Here is what I saw instead:


Placing more emphasis in attack as that is where is my concern is. Our attack was worse than expected as I didn't expect Bale and Vinicius to stay more wide than cutting in. as a result our presence in the box was less apparent and with manutd packing bodies, it was easier for them to defend. I also expected Benz to switch with Vinicius more but he had more emphasis on drifting to bale's flank and only drifted to vinicius's flank a few times.

Also in the first half, I was expecting the fullbacks to push but the left side with theo had problems whilst odriozola did push but not hard enough. which is why the lines are shorter in the 2nd pic. also i screwed up as theo's line is supposed to be much shorter. he got better as the game went on but i felt he struggled more than odriozola. though he did deliver a good cross for benz's goal, that was his only positive note the whole game.

for our attack to improve, the movements needs to be reversed for both bale and vinicius. though since its early preseason, im not expecting any immediate changes but I figure lopetegui had a good talk with them about their movements going forward after the game. they supposed to cut in. staying wide is fine... if we had arbeloa in both fullback positions... but our full backs attack, so they need to cut in and join the attack in the middle whilst benz makes the appropriate movement as the situation arises.

2nd half the movement of the midfield was much improved I thought, perhaps due to the formation change which was more evident in the 2nd half. mayoral stayed more central than benz but was useless for most of the game. Raul de Thomas was much more effective but was let down by his youth.

for the most part our frontline's movements needs to be worked on. we could have beat manutd had Bale in particular understood his role better for out of the 3 up front, Bale was least effective imo.

But remember preseason just started so I wont expect immediate fireworks. hopefully we get upto speed soon.

edit: if espn is accurate... both Benz and bale only had 2 shots with benz scoring 1 in 2. I knew we hogged the ball too much but to this extent? Vinicius only had one shot. something to work on as we go along I guess.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:16 am

8/4/2018: Real Madrid Vs Juventus Preseason Game

Will post and edit more later but for now here's kinda how i saw the teams move during the first half. If you compare our midfield to Juve's for example, midfield positions were much less static to say the least, which is in part why i think Valverde suffered, because he didn't have fixed reference points as he was moving a lot with Isco and Ceballos and he probably would have looked more comfortable where Kroos was playing in this context. A lot of mobility in that area of the pitch as influenced by Spanish 4141's

Last two games Lopetegui has made us look like a chameleon playing 433, 4231, 4141, 433 false nine, and who knows what other hybrids, and we've probably looked more fluid when we've held more conventional movements







Edit: Second half Juve switched to 442 and we played 433 false nine, 4231, and 4141, all with more conventional player movements in comparison to 1st half. Valverde looked better when given a more fixed position and to me looks like he is more comfortable as a single pivot, in a double pivot, or in a position similar to Kroos' under Zidane as an "interior." Reguilon looks interesting, seems to have height, speed, agility, ability to turn, have to keep an eye on him. Throughout the game we pressed higher up the pitch with moments of intense pressing and Juve sat back more so the dynamic was  similar to Man U game. Asensio, Vinicius, Lunin, Odriozola, Ceballos, all did well. I suspect Lopetegui likes Fede. Also, Casemiro should watch his back, Llorente is coming.

These are what i call "bites" for now, i will prob do more in depth stuff starting from the uefa super cup.

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