Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:16 pm

8/4/2018: Real Madrid Vs Juventus Preseason Game

Will post and edit more later but for now here's kinda how i saw the teams move during the first half. If you compare our midfield to Juve's for example, midfield positions were much less static to say the least, which is in part why i think Valverde suffered, because he didn't have fixed reference points as he was moving a lot with Isco and Ceballos and he probably would have looked more comfortable where Kroos was playing in this context. A lot of mobility in that area of the pitch as influenced by Spanish 4141's

Last two games Lopetegui has made us look like a chameleon playing 433, 4231, 4141, 433 false nine, and who knows what other hybrids, and we've probably looked more fluid when we've held more conventional movements







Edit: Second half Juve switched to 442 and we played 433 false nine, 4231, and 4141, all with more conventional player movements in comparison to 1st half. Valverde looked better when given a more fixed position and to me looks like he is more comfortable as a single pivot, in a double pivot, or in a position similar to Kroos' under Zidane as an "interior." Reguilon looks interesting, seems to have height, speed, agility, ability to turn, have to keep an eye on him. Throughout the game we pressed higher up the pitch with moments of intense pressing and Juve sat back more so the dynamic was  similar to Man U game. Asensio, Vinicius, Lunin, Odriozola, Ceballos, all did well. I suspect Lopetegui likes Fede. Also, Casemiro should watch his back, Llorente is coming.

These are what i call "bites" for now, i will prob do more in depth stuff starting from the uefa super cup.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by futbol_bill on Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:44 am

Lol, while you guys are struggling to figure out exactly what formation, Lopetequi will use, the analysts here say, there is no fixed formation. The tactics are based on possession, pressing and MOVEMENT. Therefore the actual formation you see is constantly changing because of the movement. The only fixed positions are the back 5, and even then the laterals are constantly up and once Ramos get back you will see lots of pushing ahead from them as well.

I’ve seen a lot of criticism of midfield, but you have to recognize, Lopetequi is asking for a completely new tactic and the takes time to develop. Reason you are seen some of the kids show well is that they have played for Lopetequi before.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:47 am

When someone mentions a formation name like 433 for example, it is a reductive statement by default because a team changes it's look as defined by roles and moments in game (like attack, defense, transition) by nature.

There was only a lot of movement in the midfield in the first half and even that was conditioned around the framework i mentioned. Then in the second half during player changes or water breaks it was clear as day to see that Lopetegui told his players to change formation, obviously this is relevant because the formation change has implications on zones occupied in the pitch, player roles and movements, etc. He's testing stuff.

I've not criticized the midfield, i have made observations, apart from Asensio, Ceballos, and Isco doing alright due to playing similar things before, in the case with Valverde that i mentioned he isn't suited to do what was being asked of him in the first half. He's also very young, probably nervous, and so the game bypassed him almost completely. Isco and Ceballos in comparison are nimble players with low centers of gravity and the technique and agility to be interchanging positions and quick passing in reduced spaces.

Asensio played as a false nine, in the 10 position, and in a deeper midfield position, and his teammates also changed a lot so it is important to mention the clear formation changes because it changes everything.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by futbol_bill on Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:37 am

MTO, you’ve taken my comments too personally. I wasn’t referring to you re posts against the midfield. i was simply saying the analysts here have a diifferent opinion than you y all re actual formation and what I had observed (possibly in other threads) re criticism re midfield.

As I said earlier, i’m a fan not a pretend analyst as some here pretend to be (aka with 10 years of observing futbol and rest dependent upon observations / recuerdos of Brothers / padre).

My comments stand re Lopetequi's tactics; pressing, possession, movement
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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:43 am

Not to worry i didn't take anything personally, i appreciate your input actually and feel free to share more, i just reiterated about midfield and formation for clarification sake and i was trying to say that it doesn't seem like analysts have a very different opinion but whatever.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:33 pm

Here are some pics by two twitter analysts with similar opinions as i posted

Quotes:

"- Presión tras pérdida.
- 4-4-2 lineal en fase defensiva.
- 4-1-3-2 con Kroos como organizador en ataque organizado.
- Bandas para los laterales"

"Primeros conceptos tácticos del Real Madrid de Lopegui (dominio del balón+presión alta). Partido muy completo contra la Juve. Pinta bien."










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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by Turok_TTZ on Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:19 pm

dynamic formation has been a thing since Carlo, it aint nothing new. but tmo is correct, lopetegui is giving us more food for thought rather than just the usual 442 in defense/433 in attack hybrid that has been a cornerstone of our success in the cl. And the key change is the movement of the mids and to an extent the frontline as well with bale cutting in more centrally or pushing out wide depending where the mids themsrlves are positioned. though i think lopetegui is trying to push the tactics unto the kids a little too much in a short amount of time. having a player just recovering the ball when he looks up only to see 2-3 mids in the same area on the pitch blocked by juventus players with the central and right side empty forcing the guy to pass backwards as everyone gets back in better positions to receive the ball is far from ideal. but thankfully this didnt happen often. movements and positioning, especially in dynamic setups take a lot of time to get competent at let alone getting good at. but I do appreciate what lopetegui is trying to do. static midfield is worthless after all. but perhaps he needs to take the lesson more slowly. first half midfield was erratic. though our pressing and ball recovery was very good.

lopetegui seems to be looking to strike a fine balance between possession and direct attacking football. i think this will translate well into la liga. however, direct attacking football requires speed to be truly effective. Vinicius becomes a requirement as we saw his immediate impact with asensio. his speed, dribbling and willingness to push forward is a boon in our attack. observing our preseason, im becoming more convinced we cannot leave vinicius in castilla or on the bench. Vinicius looks the part and he already has the speed and the skillset. We need to place trust in Vinius and give him a chance for a starting role in our team. he is young but i think its worth a shot. Vinicius has been very impressive.

asensio cannot be ignored for he showed his intelligence. the false 9/cf spot requires intelligence to be effective in our setup. asensio looks the part as well, except he has superior acceleration to Benzema, which provides opportunities for goals like the 2nd goal he scored against juve. Put benz or lewa for example in the same spot and the defender would have made it to the ball first. acceleration matters in short spaces and asensio has it in good quality. much food for thought.

I have more thoughts but i need to organize them a little more.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:39 pm

Right, logically, instructing your players to move with a lot of interchangeable mobility takes time to become fluid. It is exciting to see Lopy (as i'll call him) try out stuff, makes other managers look un-creative.

Vinicius looks alright doesn't he. That false nine set up would require Bale and Vinicius as the wide forwards with interchanging along the front 3 at times i imagine. Vinicius is made for that, but as Zico said recently, he needs to work on his shot/goal threat so he's not toothless.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:23 pm

8/15/2018 Real Madrid vs Atletico Madrid UEFA Super Cup

More or less looked like this on the first half



Watching the first half atm, Casemiro was phased out creatively almost completely during this half and when he was under pressure he also misplaced a couple of passes, not enough game through the inside between the lines of Atletico, instead we opted to switch the play between flanks and pin Atletico further back like that but the attack could have had more dimension to it and Isco didn't connect as well as he could have. Did not like the midfield play. Atletico hardly did anything and the first goal was unfortunate, they were intense with high pressure during opening minutes then they sat back more. Mobility between Isco and Asensio wasn't fruitful.

As i watch the second half, we were less intense, sat back more, were more direct, switched to 433 once Modric came in, very little of the experimentation that we saw in the pre season games and i do not like Casemiro here if we want to play more of that "total football", we should only play him if we have to due to context. In second half we were able to play more in the middle of the pitch and Isco got to do what he likes which is come into the midfield from the left attacking midfielder position.

As time went on we looked more fatigued and our shape was less solid, Casemiro got injured and i think Llorente should have come on instead of Ceballos.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:38 pm

Tifo football is a great Youtube channel and here's a video that talks about the "modern striker" topic that Turok brought up recently.



Tactical, theoretical, technical, and physical evolution in the game has led to changes in how roles are defined, to the point that even the more technically limited players are now being asked for more because of this. It's happening with all positions and formations and it goes back strongly to the total voetbal theories, which themselves were influenced by other earlier theories.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by sportsczy on Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:44 pm

Yeah I mean there's infinitely more movement by players in general and nobody moreso than strikers. Players drift left, right and central all the time. Until not too long ago, everyone stayed in their lanes. Not so much now. You need to be able to handle yourself everywhere.

BUT, that doesn't excuse you from being great at your primary role. So as a CF, you need to be a scorer first.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:15 am

I was thinking about our system today...



One way we could play Casemiro-Kroos-Modric is by slotting Casemiro and Kroos in a double pivot, where Kroos would have to run less and be positioned in his ideal creative zone, while Casemiro could stay back and help with midfield stability as well as the back line.

I'm not sure how Lopetegui used Casemiro in the Porto team context but from a total voetbal/positional play perspective, it is his lack of agility and creative ability in tight spaces which do him in imo. If Valverde was more developed i could seem him as a very well rounded partner for Kroos, and i think that maybe could have been Kovacic's role if he hadn't left.

Modric would be left with a more creative role in the midfield three and in an idea world, there would be great mobility between the midfield three. During the pre-season games i saw more of this mobility than in the last two games.

One good template to look at (and i will investigate further and write more later as my time is limited atm) is Spain 2010.

The midfield was mobile, technical, and Xavi executed a role fitting of Modric, while there was positional play/interchanging that can also be done by our team. Pedro and Iniesta would come inside to help the deeper players find bodies between lines and then give space for the fullbacks to overlap, hence helping with interior play which is something i have seen us struggle with in our 2 competitive games so far.

Here are some pictures

Look at positioning of midfield 3


Midfield 3 (Casemiro can't play like this) and Pedro coming in


Midfield 5 with Villa as the potent goal scorer with good interplay (Benzema is not complete enough)


The clear shape with interior movement


Busquets as a makeshift CB while Ramos (the RB) is upfield and look at positioning of Xavi and Xabi




We can try this sort of play with our own personal touches so we can be more direct and also better at counters than Spain 2010 were, a sort of pragmatic positional play. If Bale gets injured put Asensio in the right and Isco on the left so they can both cut in and shoot and we need a different type of goalscorer than Benzema to be available, maybe pay for Rodrigo if he's good enough?

Need to watch last two games we played again but definitely our player movements and positional play was not anywhere near this good against Atletico and the movements by the front 3/4 were oriented differently and not optimally i think.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:38 pm

Girona vs Real Madrid 8/26/2018

As i write this i am not done watching the match so i will edit..

Here is an average position map of the match by Whoscored. On the left is Girona, on the right is Madrid.



Here is how i saw the teams more or less played in the first half



We were playing with a 4231ish shape and they were playing with a 4132ish shape with interesting mobility by Borja Garcia. Girona was pressing/defending from a middle to high height, and pressed harder at specific points of our early build up. Girona's two forward most players were trying to halt the connection between our Center backs and our poorly positioned double pivot. They were mostly trying to expose our left side, with Portu running in behind Marcelo, and it obviously worked for them.

We on the other hand were not pressing with intensity, were lacking a midfield passing option at different heights (both from top to bottom), the team's lines were too far apart and as a result the team wasn't a unified block, and there was far too much futile movement from the 4 attackers in front of the defending 6. Benzema should not have to drop in so much, and the mobility between Isco, Asensio, and Bale is something i do not like. All in all we were quite disappointing in my eyes.

It was difficult to create because the double pivot was standing on an even level, neither Casemiro or Kroos were positionally offering themselves to the Center-backs as a pivot, and just by looking at the positions i posted above, you can see how we were neutralized early on due to our deficits and our opponents' attitude and strategy.

You can make your own conclusions on some of these snapshots







From min 30 to the end of the first half, Girona lost they discipline, compactness, and intensity of the beginning, until Madrid finally got a goal after Girona left themselves too exposed. Marcelo and Casemiro were embarrassing this half. What happened to staying compact, using gegenpressing, high pressure, etc? Disappointing.

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Re: Dots and Pyramids: An RM Tactics Thread

Post by The Madrid One on Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:56 am


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