Real Betis v Real Madrid

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Mamad on Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:14 pm

@Mr Nick09 wrote:This is the 3rd time you are bringing it up but Isco's situation has nothing to do with Sneijder and robben's. The latter were actually wanted by their previous coach to stay but they were sold just to raise money, not because they were not a good fit.

It's exactly the same. it's about not appreciating what you have.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by vanDEEZ on Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:27 pm

Nick is saying Sneijder and Robben WERE appreciated by supporters and managers. It was Perez who needed to make space and bring in extra money to get Ronaldo and Kaka. So for them they didn’t leave because of tactics or poor play.

Isco is clearly supported by the fans and Perez, however it’s Solari and his tactical setup that is the cause for Isco sitting. Isco isn’t sitting because he’s a bad player, Solari just wants more directness and pace on the wings, Isco is not that.
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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Mamad on Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:38 pm

I know. i'm also talking about the board or whatever there is. in some situations they have to back their players more. not to treat them like this.

Trust me it's no tactical. we are playing the same system that we played last season. Solari hasn't changed anything tactical wise.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Mamad on Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:43 pm

He benched Isco the moment he became manager. so he better tell the truth about the matter not some "i have 25 players who all deserve to play" bullshit.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:58 pm

He is saying the truth though he is saying that Isco is no more valuable to him than Brahim.

It's a tactical choice because Solari's understanding of the 433 is not the same as Zidane's. The formation may be the same but it does not translate the same for both coaches. Like when Conte plays a 343 or 352 it has nothing to do with the way Tuchel does it or Guardiola.

If anything the biggest problem for Isco here is that no one is taking his corner. Not the Spanish crew, not Ramos, not Marcelo, no one. The club is in crisis mode and frankly there is no time to check up on his feelings, specially when we have had reports that other players like Modric had been critical of Isco's style keeping the ball rolling much etc.

At the end of the day again, no one is questioning his overall quality here except for Chad, we are just saying that he doesn't fit well in what Solari wants to do. If we had more hard working mids imo, he would play more but when you already have to protect guys like Kroos and to some extent Modric now and you want to keep your team very tight tactically, playing Isco will take away from that, specially in his current form.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by terrance511 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:28 pm

it's foolish to sell isco, especially if it's done for solari.

isco is the only few that looks like he'll still have a place in a squad overhaul under new manager

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:39 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Isco is struggling because he's not even a AM.  He's a traditional 10 who isn't effective on the wing.  The thing with Hazard is that he can play wide or the 10.  Isco is literally ONLY a 10.  


This is ultimately simply bollocks, sorry.
Generally speaking, the 'player x can only really play EXACTLY in position y' talk is always wrong, and then in this case you also got your facts wrong.
You're just way off the mark, no matter how tight a narrative you spin around your point.

Isco played his best, by far very best, football for Real under Ancelotti in the 14/15 season, early when Bale was injured and Isco was basically Real's best performer for a good part of the season.
And he played either as an AM in a 4-3-3 or wide in a 4-4-2.
Or to be precise, a mixture of both as Ancelotti's formation was a 4-3-3 tilted so that the left winger Ronaldo became basically a 2nd striker and the left CAM (Isco for example) almost became a wide player.

So no, absolutely no, he doesn't need to play as a "traditional 10" to excel, and moreover, no, it's not his best position either.
His attacking end product is far too tame to be a 10, and the comparison with Özil is, with all due respect, LAUGHABLE.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Thimmy on Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:50 pm

The single most dominant performance I’ve seen from Isco, was actually when he played as a makeshift DM against Liverpool, also under Ancelotti (2014 I believe it was). He was absolutely orchestral to our midfield dominance in that match.
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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:14 pm

Hans makes a valid point, Isco was equally superb playing off the left wing for Spain this summer. His quality can't be doubted. And he started the season balling for us as well this year. When things go wrong it's easy to forget it all

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:18 pm

@Mr Nick09 wrote:Hans makes a valid point, Isco was equally superb playing off the left wing for Spain this summer. His quality can't be doubted. And he started the season balling for us as well this year. When things go wrong it's easy to forget it all


Hogged the ball way too much for my taste playing for Spain, and generally speaking NT level is not to be taken seriously.

Honestly haven't seen a performance by him that I liked in years. He's not a 10 at all, he just lacks the killer instinct.
Probably he's better further away from goal, a Thiago type player who can keep the ball in possession but also carry it forward from midfield, but then the actual creation of chances has to be done by others. Of course, Thiago is far superior in that role as his game against the ball is awesome, and even James has performed in such a role for us better than I think Isco can do it.

Ultimately, I think Isco simply isn't an elite player. He could still do well at another club, of course.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Valkyrja on Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:15 pm

@Thimmy wrote:The single most dominant performance I’ve seen from Isco, was actually when he played as a makeshift DM against Liverpool, also under Ancelotti (2014 I believe it was). He was absolutely orchestral to our midfield dominance in that match.


That was our best midfield line of all time tbh. James-Modric-Kroos-Isco were imperious in the first half of 14-15

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:23 pm

He CAN have a good (even great) performance here and there as a wing player or CM... just like Kante can play winger for a game and make himself look good.  Or if some of you recall, we had Lass Diarra play RB in a bind and had a couple of very good games there.

But that's a far far cry from saying a player can consistently play a non ideal unless... he shows that he consistently can.... which Isco hasn't.

Carlo played a beautiful, yet disastrous tactic in 2014 2015 where we just fell apart in the 2nd half of the season.  Kroos was the holding mid lol.  Bale was playing right wing.  Modric was the CM... who fed either Isco or James who played behind CR and Benzema.  Isco did play well because, like James, they were given a lot of freedom.

Of course, once Rafa and then Zidane came on, neither James nor Isco could hold a position in a more stringent tactical setup where they didn't have the freedom... because Bale was given the freedom under Rafa and Modric was given the freedom under Zidane.

And that's really what it comes down to.  Isco needs a free role behind the strikers.  Call it a 10, AM, etc.  Whatever you want.  He's a very instinctive player and need the freedom to show that instinct.

I will say that Isco showed more work rate in that season with Carlo than he has since or before... not enough of a sample size for me.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:20 pm

@sportsczy wrote:
I will say that Isco showed more work rate in that season with Carlo than he has since or before... not enough of a sample size for me.


More sample size than some fantasy 'traditional 10' position he's never actually played in

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Thimmy on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:35 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:
I will say that Isco showed more work rate in that season with Carlo than he has since or before...  not enough of a sample size for me.


More sample size than some fantasy 'traditional 10' position he's never actually played in


That's where he excelled at Malaga, to be fair. I believe he even stated in an interview that he prefers to play right behind the forwards, but I really can't be bothered to dig it up Very Happy
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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Mamad on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:10 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
Ultimately, I think Isco simply isn't an elite player. He could still do well at another club, of course.


Who do you consider elite among current midfielders?

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:39 pm

Carlo's 442 with James and Isco wide was a thing of beauty until Bale came back

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:04 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:
I will say that Isco showed more work rate in that season with Carlo than he has since or before... not enough of a sample size for me.


More sample size than some fantasy 'traditional 10' position he's never actually played in

That's all he played at Malaga... but whatever. We're not going to agree.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Doc on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:11 pm

@Mr Nick09 wrote:Carlo's 442 with James and Isco wide was a thing of beauty until Bale came back

It really was.

14/15 and basically the entire 2nd part of 16/17 were Isco's finest seasons so far for me. Disagree with Hans obviously, Isco is elite but at this point, he has no position in Solari's steady the ship tactics. Would be a crying shame we could actually lose an elite midfielder in his prime due to this shit coach but he picks the side.

Madrid really love doing things the hard way.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:09 pm

To me, Isco is a scorer for a midfielder. We tried to beat that out of him because we wanted BBC to do the scoring... He has to get that knack back.

And he's by far our best free kick taker despite what Ramos might think.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by titosantill on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:29 am

i honestly didn't see anything special in that carlo's second season during that run of wins. and i'm not just saying that because of how the season ended, my position on that even at that time was always consistent. are you guys using the term 'elite' loosely? isco's talented, yes, but elite? elite is for people who are at their peak and boss their position. isco's 26, he'll be 27 next year, and yet hasn't seen his peak yet, nor has he been a starter since malaga

if you ask me, isco's career so far is looking more like guti's than someone who is elite. i think people are still looking at him like he's some 21 year old rising star. he is at a crossroads in his career, there's still time, but he himself needs to bring more to the table, either at madrid, or any other club that wants to sign him

ps , sneijder and robben were always getting injured. i wasn't mad at those transfers
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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:43 am

It is a no brainer for me, Isco is elite and Madrid should really get their priorities straight. Do they want to lose another elite player from their roster or do they want to lose a coach who's, by any metric under the sun, shit and will most likely leave any way?

Not too long ago, our squad was stacked with elite players. Now, I can count the remaining elite players on the fingers of one hand. But sure, let's lose another one, who cares.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:09 pm

allow me to chuckle a bit when in the same sentence you praise Perez for building an elite team which won 4 CLs and then you criticize him for bad squad planning Laughing

That team we had was not sustainable, too many good guys on the bench like James or Morata who wanted to leave to find play time elsewhere.

Let's assume this summer you can sign any player you want to rebuild the team, you can hire your dream coach and put up any formation of your choosing, no limit on budget. Do you build a team around Isco yes or no?


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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:09 pm

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:It is a no brainer for me, Isco is elite and Madrid should really get their priorities straight. Do they want to lose another elite player from their roster or do they want to lose a coach who's, by any metric under the sun, shit and will most likely leave any way?

Not too long ago, our squad was stacked with elite players. Now, I can count the remaining elite players on the fingers of one hand. But sure, let's lose another one, who cares.

I have a feeling we'll replace him with De Gea...

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:23 pm

@Mr Nick09 wrote:allow me to chuckle a bit when in the same sentence you praise Perez for building an elite team which won 4 CLs and then you criticize him for bad squad planning Laughing

That team we had was not sustainable, too many good guys on the bench like James or Morata who wanted to leave to find play time elsewhere. That was always unsustainable

Except Mourinho had a lot to do with bringing sanity to our transfer policy and building squads... Flo had no clue.  Since Mourinho left, Flo can take credit for exactly two key transfers:  Bale and Kroos.  You can throw Isco in there too.  

Flo actually almost screwed things up by selling Di Maria and Di Maria for Isco and James.  He was lucky that the core didn't involve any of these guys...  But you're giving Flo credit that isn't deserved.

Flo has no idea about the football aspect.  He's fanboy like the rest of us.  His big adjustment was that he stepped back from transfers other than the really big ones.  And the only really big one has been Bale for a long long time.

Jose Angel Sanchez is the one that's taken over football transfer matters for all intents and purposes.  He was brought in by Mourinho.  My feeling on him is that he's a mixed bag.

Flo is a great executive... shit footballing man.  The current footballing people surrounding him rode the coat tails of Mourinho and, to a far lesser extent, Zidane (Varane  buy).  We'll see if this crew helping Flo is up to snuff when they actually need to build their own team.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:30 pm

Football decisions in Madrid are not taken by just JAS or Perez it's a  group of persons. Let's not talk in hypotheticals  here. Did the club not win 4 CLs under Perez guidance in his second stint? Facts. I'm giving credit to an organization and a way of operating which delivered the greatest era of European success in club history.

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Re: Real Betis v Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:43 pm

Oh come on. That's not true. Valdano made the footballing suggestions and Flo blessed them...or did his own thing. Mourinho came in and changed all that. Contractually, Madrid couldn't buy or sell anyone without his sign off to the first team... so Valdano was let go and Jose Angel Sanchez, with the blessing of Mourinho, started to handle the process of recruiting/transfers. He acted as the buffer between Mourinho and Flo as well.

Once Mourinho left, Jose Angel Sanchez made a power grab on that front and became the guy in charge of transfers... with Flo having final say of course.

Interesting thing is that Zidane and Sanchez didn't see eye to eye. So Sanchez hinted that he would leave to Man U IN CASE Flo decided to give some of his power away to Zidane. Flo picked Sanchez. Zidane stayed until real transfers were needed... didn't get his way and left.

Now, Jose Angel Sanchez is in charge of making transfer suggestions and Flo gives his blessing. So in essence, Sanchez and his team are in charge of transfers. It's all on him. So blame him a mostly for our anemic policy and Flo for letting him get away with it.

That said, I'm sure Flo remembers how catastrophic we were when he butted in back in 00s. So he's likely keeping himself from interfering unless he's forced to.

My thoughts on this.

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