Real Betis v Real Madrid

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Post by sportsczy on Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:43 pm

Oh come on. That's not true. Valdano made the footballing suggestions and Flo blessed them...or did his own thing. Mourinho came in and changed all that. Contractually, Madrid couldn't buy or sell anyone without his sign off to the first team... so Valdano was let go and Jose Angel Sanchez, with the blessing of Mourinho, started to handle the process of recruiting/transfers. He acted as the buffer between Mourinho and Flo as well.

Once Mourinho left, Jose Angel Sanchez made a power grab on that front and became the guy in charge of transfers... with Flo having final say of course.

Interesting thing is that Zidane and Sanchez didn't see eye to eye. So Sanchez hinted that he would leave to Man U IN CASE Flo decided to give some of his power away to Zidane. Flo picked Sanchez. Zidane stayed until real transfers were needed... didn't get his way and left.

Now, Jose Angel Sanchez is in charge of making transfer suggestions and Flo gives his blessing. So in essence, Sanchez and his team are in charge of transfers. It's all on him. So blame him a mostly for our anemic policy and Flo for letting him get away with it.

That said, I'm sure Flo remembers how catastrophic we were when he butted in back in 00s. So he's likely keeping himself from interfering unless he's forced to.

My thoughts on this.

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Post by vanDEEZ on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:17 pm

I couldn’t really care less about who is more to blame/praise about transfers. Perez is in a position to make changes and nothing has happened.

Nick’s question regarding building the team around Isco if we had unlimited funds is an interesting one, though. For me, I think the answer is no. Surely he is an elite talent, but football has largely moved away from the CAM position that suits him best. If we could find a coach who can maximize him as a CM or a false 9 as he’s shown glimpses of brilliance in the past, then maybe. But having players like Isco and Janes can be a bit limiting which is why in our recent history we have butted heads with that type of position- Ozil included.
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:19 pm

@sportsczy wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:
I will say that Isco showed more work rate in that season with Carlo than he has since or before... not enough of a sample size for me.


More sample size than some fantasy 'traditional 10' position he's never actually played in

That's all he played at Malaga... but whatever. We're not going to agree.


Isco played as left winger for Malage too, didn't he?
@Mamad wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
Ultimately, I think Isco simply isn't an elite player. He could still do well at another club, of course.


Who do you consider elite among current midfielders?


Thiago, Pogba, Kroos, Gündogan, De Bruyne, Silva *2, Modric, Vidal, Rakitic, and that's only the first ones that come to mind for the 8 position. They're all better than Isco.

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Post by vanDEEZ on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:31 pm

Isco was able to play the 10 position for Malaga. They mostly played a 4-2-3-1 I believe where Isco ran everything in the middle.
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Post by futbol_bill on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:03 pm

I don’t disagree in principle with you sports, but it wasn’t Mourinho that made the 7 or 8 signings the year before Mourinho came in. That revamped squad was named, almost to a person in Flo’s reelection campaign and that was a year before Mourinho’s name was eveb mentioned.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:37 pm

Interesting that JAS Makes the recommendation but somehow you said it's Perez who wanted to sell Di Maria. How do you know it's not the other way around? No need to speculate this much.

I asked a question in the previous page and I'll be curious to see the responses. If you can sign anyone and build the team however way you want, do you build it around Isco?

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Post by futbol_bill on Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:04 pm

You guys keep going on about Di Maria. He was a misfit here, only having half a season at a good level when he asked to play his least favourite position. He had been demanding more money every year, actually every time he stepped off the plane returning to Argentina. He did absolutely make a huge contribution that final half season, but to go on and on as if he was an elite player is plain and simple false. He was let go because he was demanding an unrealistic salary. And his efforts at both clubs since he left are further demonstration that he is neither elite nor worth the salary he demanded. I regret losing Ozil much more than Di Maria.
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Post by sportsczy on Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:08 pm

@futbol_bill wrote:I don’t disagree in principle with you sports, but it wasn’t Mourinho that made the 7 or 8 signings the year before Mourinho came in. That revamped squad was named, almost to a person in Flo’s reelection campaign and that was a year before Mourinho’s name was eveb mentioned.

Agreed Bill. But there was no real process or stability involved prior to Mou. And we certainly wouldn't have signed Varane, Modric, Ozil, Di Maria, Carvalho and Khedira without Mou's influence. They weren't shiny enough for our Flo... likely, we would have found a way to play a midfield of Canales, kaka and Gago with an attack of CR, Benzema and Pedro Leon.

The whole thought process towards winning changed.

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Post by Freeza on Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:00 pm

I wouldn't give anyone credit for signing a trash player like Khedira. There's a reason we started dominating the CL once he was benched and gone.

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Post by sportsczy on Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:10 pm

@Freeza wrote:I wouldn't give anyone credit for signing a trash player like Khedira. There's a reason we started dominating the CL once he was benched and gone.

He was actually pretty good imo.  Nothing trash about him.  

We couldn't win CL because, if people recall, CR was a big game flop until after we won la Decima AND Mou insisted on playing a 4231 with a double pivot of Khedira-Alonso and asking Ozil to play defense (lol).  Not to mention Pepe and Ramos were still completely mental.  They didn't calm down to non-sabotage levels until the year we won la decima.

People forget that our CBs would literally lose game by themselves and often. Never seen a pair of volatile CBs like Ramos and Pepe in those days.

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Post by Freeza on Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:12 pm

He was Faubert level

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Post by Mamad on Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:57 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
Thiago, Pogba, Kroos, Gündogan, De Bruyne, Silva *2, Modric, Vidal, Rakitic, and that's only the first ones that come to mind for the 8 position. They're all better than Isco.

Do not agree with this list but whatever.

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Post by chad4401 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:45 pm

Bruh isco has to be the most overrated player ever, again all im seeing is that he is elite, elite at what? Outside of dribbling isco contributes sod all he is a luxury player, only player on the squad can barely do anything note worthy and be better than everybody else on the team.

he is trash I have seen you guys rave about average isco game before, then act all pretend shocked when he gets dropped take the L, stop making shit up, it amazes me how 20 assists players like James, di Maria and ozil can all get criticized to death but this freaking guy that can't defend, slow, ballhog, bad positioning and no vision, is alway better than everyone else because a bunch fans and media crowned him the best to join Madrid before he proved anything.

the guy can't even hold down a starting spot that Carlo, rafa, Zidane and Jlo gave him repeatedly, when isco sucks in the all the games he gets you guys alway rush to post shit about benzema and let him off hook every time, bernabaeu fans do it and marca all pushing the same false narrative.

isco is amazing but can't name shit that he is amazing at, he just is then why can't he create an assist for benzema in the last 2 years? But you guys can blame benz him when you know isco is not even trying to pass to him, isco is a selfish turd that needs the whole team to grind to a halt cuddle him so he can suckless gtfo he is trash.

A fan base that claim they love to hold players feet to the fire and make them feel pressure by booing them and trashing them through the media, singled out kroos, modric, casemiro, benzema, bale, cr, James and illarra etc, over and over but through all the years this post isco been at the club he is always good and way better than everyone else, I can't wait till he flops like Morata and read how much Madrid ruined him, even though he is always the best according to fans and media.

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Post by Doc on Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:54 pm

To answer Nick's questions:

I genuinely do not like this whole building around 1 player so I would still have Isco as part of a team that isn't specifically built around 1 guy.

I take it your question is pretty loaded so I'll respond to it how you probably want it: No, Isco is not that good to have you build an entire team around. He isn't Messi, he isn't Maradona, Di Stefano, Ronaldo, Old man Johan and men of that ilk. Just an elite yet replaceable cog in a team.


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Post by chad4401 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:05 pm

Again how is isco elite? What is he elite at? Can get some stats?

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:06 pm

Lol at Hans mentioning Gundogan like he is still relevant in 2019

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Post by chad4401 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:10 pm

So what is isco elite at? Positioning? Vision? Timing? Defending? Midfield control? Distribution? Or is it non of the above and just sick dribbling skills that he does cause he too stupid to pass the ball quickly to a player 5 yards away from him?

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:17 pm

@Doc wrote:To answer Nick's questions:

I genuinely do not like this whole building around 1 player so I would still have Isco as part of a team that isn't specifically built around 1 guy.

I take it your question is pretty loaded so I'll respond to it how you probably want it: No, Isco is not that good to have you build an entire team around. He isn't Messi, he isn't Maradona, Di Stefano, Ronaldo, Old man Johan and men of that ilk. Just an elite yet replaceable cog in a team.

I like this answer, elite yet replaceable. My question sure is loaded because I believe making a player like Isco as part of your XI requires that you count him as a free player and protect him accordingly. That impose on the type of CM you must play, etc... At this point of his career this is the challenge for Isco, finding a club that embraces him as a clear starter. This is why this situation is not sustainable long term anyway because unless you are willing to say that Real Madrid must plan with Isco as a starter, there is no solution to this situation. He has already been in Madrid too long in that pseudo starter, 12th or 13th player role.

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Post by Mamad on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:21 pm

Isco by no means is a bad passer. some of his passes are fantastic. watch this complete:



Last edited by Mamad on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by FennecFox7 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:21 pm

At the end of the day, it has to be said, some of you guys are still playing the favorite player card with isco. In professional sports, you earn your place on the team.

Do I like isco? absolutely. Do I want him to succeed? Yes. But you have to give 100% when you walk on to that pitch and wear the white jersey. Otherwise, we’re just rewarding self-entitlement and mediocrity. Not what my club is about.

It’s that simple. If isco plays with heart and stops sulking, i guarantee you he will play eventually.
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Post by Mamad on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:24 pm

Isco, on form, is absolutely world class.

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Post by chad4401 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 pm

@Mamad wrote:Isco, on form, is absolutely world class.

World class at what where are these dominant games where he dominated other elite teams, isco is a bad passer how can you argue that after watching James and ozil, everybody looks unplayable in a YouTube highlight when you watch games honestly isco does sod all and it's obvious by his inability to have one single season as a starter, again where are these elite stats are? Just show me some numbers compared to di Maria, James or ozil?

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Post by Doc on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:33 pm

That's odd, as far as his flaws go, it isn't sulking. I can't recall him doing any of the Morata/James sulking on the bench. He even admitted that it was his own fault for not being a starter. The man puts in effort, just as Nick rightfully pointed out, he does not fit into Solari's scheme. It is what it is.

To provoke Chad because fk his shit, if Solari preferred a poacher, Benzema would be on the bench. The manager picks the side, not us.

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Post by chad4401 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:34 pm

You guys throw around the word world class and elite for almost anything nowadays, I have players out perform isco in their sleep and nobody treats with as much respect as isco just because he is good at dribbling forget dribbling or shielding the ball, show chance created in games per 90 mins or his assist totals or goals.

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Post by Mamad on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:37 pm

It's 10 minutes of him basically making the forwards one on one with keeper. and i have actually watched him every single game for many years now.

He is one of the best at dribbling and holding the ball. great passer and very good shooter and scorer.

the flaw in his game is that sometimes he holds the ball too much. but then again every player has flaws.

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Post by chad4401 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:39 pm

Doc what you are saying is rubbish higuain is the goalscorer to ever live according to you guys but he will be remembered as a choker, Moraga better than Benz deserve to start flop at both elite clubs he went to, all you guys can do is push narratives and talk shit, that isco can be bang average but the narrative is how bad the coach or the players are worse than him, or the tactics, it's never because isco is average, but you guys have the nerve to single out better players than him and shit on them to cover for isco is not a guess its facts.

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