Formation change

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Formation change Empty Formation change

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:14 pm

My question is, are we going to need a formation change?

If we look back at the past 8-9 years, we went through a formation change between the Mourinho years 4231, and the second half of Carlo's season when the 433 became our default formation. I bring this up because I think how you line up + personnel has a lot to do with your team's ability to generate offense and goals, something we have been struggling with a lot season. So thinking about our attacking struggles, the loss of a generational attacker and what we could do to address them moving forward, i started wondering if the team approach as a whole shouldnt change as well.

1) Generational players like CR are unconcerned with questions because providing you give them the freedom they ask for, they will deliver in goals. This applies to other players like Messi as well, and to a lesser extent, Salah, Neymar and maybe Mbappe now. I'm going to assume are not signing one of those guys anyime soon.

2) Looking at our players, our midfielders are not great when it comes to creating goals from the midfield. While we have a couple of world class players, their strengths and attributes lie somewhere else, and when we are struggling to score, those attributes become less relevant. Furthermore they are aging, and a strategy were we just want to find a 1 for 1 replacement for players like Modric or Kroos concerns me a bit, i dont think it's smart.

3) it's easier attacking with 4 than it is attacking with 4. simple math of committing more players forward yield a greater ability to create chances and potentially more players finding themselves in the box to finish chances. Not only that, spacing is traditionally better when you have 2 players down the middle of the defense making runs and 2 wide men still in position to support them or cut inside.

4) It's very likely that we will sign Hazard next summer, so im going to speculate on this basis from here. Where does he best play? Hazard played almost all his career from the left (in england at least, at lille he played mainly on the right), and we now have Vinicius who is showing an impressive level on that same side of the pitch.

I am starting to wonder if Hazard shouldn't in fact be the player that replaces modric for us as an advanced playmaker supported by two hardworking midfielders who will do the dirty work in transition for the team. The blueprint would essentially Mourinho's second season, or Bayern/Dortmund 4231. I feel like we should build a team where we can flank pacy attacking wingers on either, who can overwhelm 99% fullbacks on 1v1 and barrel the flank at will. It's amazing to see what Vinicius by himself is able to do on the left and i would love to see the equivalent on the right.

This amount of spacing alone should improve our goalscoring abilities and another football logic is to play forwards with end product if you wish to score goals. Again, this will contribute to solving some of our goalscoring issues.

Something like

Thibuuuuu
carvajal-varane-ramos-xxxxx
xxxxx-xxxxx
xxxxx-Hazard-Vinicius
xxxxx

Let me know what you think

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Post by The Madrid One on Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:53 pm

Well it is relevant to posit who the manager could be as that would affect the reasoning and likelihood of removing Casemiro and Kroos from starting (in terms of philosophy and political power.)

The 4231/433 hybrids are something i remember mentioning in my ill fated tactics thread, Spain, Germany, and Netherlands all used their own particular 4231s in 2010, so did Inter and Bayern 2010, Madrid 2012, Bayern and Dortmund 2013, and Lopetegui tried to bring it on early on.

Bayern 2013's was prob the best because of the variables contained in Schweinsteiger-Martinez-Robben-Kroos-Ribery-Mandzukic, the midfield duo/trio was physical and technical enough, and the front line was vertical and penetrating enough, along with the whole team work ethic component.

Having said this, if i remember correctly with Lopetegui's line ups early this season, Casemiro isn't technical or nimble enough, Kroos isn't physical enough, and then calamity ensued with Marcelo on that side.

I think Kroos could stay in but you'd need someone more complete than Casemiro (a more mature Valverde type profile) and a defensively good left back. That RAM/RF spot would prob be most interesting one to find, who knows if Bale will finally leave, and i'd imagine that is Asensio's best positioning so he'd prob be involved in rotation. You need a legitimate goal threat striker, and you need a CAM who can link up vertically with midfield and forwards with movement, passing, and even pace.

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:09 pm

It's not just a coaching decision though, it's also the sporting direction of the club as a whole. If you plan to play a double pivot then you need different types of players for sure.

This has to be a question, otherwise, what's the point in signing all those Vinicius, Rodrygo and also thinking of bringing Hazard? from a structural point of view, the 4231 makes more sense, that's what im arguing. Making signings, specially in midfield with more hardworking players to support the attacking ones would then become a necessity.

THe bayern midfield you posted was very balanced, i had it in mind for sure, specially because by just subbing in Muller for Kroos, they would become more attacking, like a 442.


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Post by vanDEEZ on Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:46 pm

It’s hard to say because I’m expecting a new manager and new players so who could say? I don’t think we NEED a formation change so long as the right players come in. That being said, I wouldn’t mind a formation change. I’ve always thought (and have been given lots of crap for, so I’ve already heard what you’re likely going to say) a 3-5-2 would work well with our current personnel, especially a couple seasons ago when we had Ronaldo. Regardless of what happens, we need some form of tactical identity that our plays can understand and rally around because our current formula isn’t cutting it.
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Post by The Madrid One on Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:52 pm

I don't consider the Madrid sporting direction to be particularly sophisticated or methodical, and in a real world situation, i think it would have to be a manager with good leverage that convinces the club to transition from having players like Marcelo, Bale, Casemiro, and possibly Modric and Kroos as starters.

We need changes in LB, RW, ST, and Midfield anyways, and if you bring Hazard into the situation then 4231 seems the logical progression with possibly forward positional changes akin to what Lopetegui tried early on this season. Rodrygo shouldn't be in any sort of equation yet. If you bring Hazard then Isco has to leave, Odegaard prob wouldn't be brought in (or maybe he could come in and we could loan Brahim), and Ceballos should leave.

One thing is for certain, CKM combo + Marcelo has to go next season, and if you want to incorporate both Hazard and Vinicius then 4231 seems ideal.


Last edited by The Madrid One on Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:55 pm

If you look at what Solari is doing, he is already phasing out guys like Marcelo and Isco out of the team and he is clearly showing a propensity to play hardworking players in midfield. I'm curious to see now if Ceballos will also overtake Kroos, and likewise for Llorente for Casemiro.

What is significant in this is 0 pressure from the club to force play certain guys over the younger kids. Eventhough we are struggling this is accepted.

At the end of the day, if you bring Hazard you have to readjust your team balance as a whole, as you said.

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Post by vanDEEZ on Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:56 pm

Hazard doesn’t want to play central, he has mentioned it several times.
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Post by Cyborg on Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:57 pm

Courtois
Carvajal Varane Ramos Junior
Casemiro Kroos
Asensio Hazard Vinicius
Rodrygo

Courtois
Carvajal Varane Ramos Reguilon
Isco Casemiro Kroos
Asensio
Rodrygo Vinicius

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:57 pm

@vanDEEZ wrote:Hazard doesn’t want to play central, he has mentioned it several times.
can you show me? Because I have heard him several times saying how he wants to play down the middle

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:03 pm

@Cyborg wrote:
Courtois
Carvajal Varane Ramos Junior
Casemiro Kroos
Asensio Hazard Vinicius
Rodrygo

Courtois
Carvajal Varane Ramos Reguilon
Isco Casemiro Kroos
Asensio
Rodrygo Vinicius
Casemiro Kroos is way too weak of a double pivot, and Rodrigo is not a number 9 dude. And Asensio that fraud lol

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Post by vanDEEZ on Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:30 pm

@Mr Nick09 wrote:
@vanDEEZ wrote:Hazard doesn’t want to play central, he has mentioned it several times.
can you show me? Because I have heard him several times saying how he wants to play down the middle


"Yes, for sure. But I will score more goals also if I play as a winger...my position is winger."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2812756-eden-hazard-prefers-wing-role-will-make-decision-on-chelsea-future-in-summer

Hazard said: 'For me as a winger you know I like to play with top players.

'With Chelsea I had the chance to play with one of the best in Diego Costa for three years, and I think Higuain is one of the best.

'My position is more winger than No 9, but me, I just try to have fun with my striker, with the other winger, so when the striker is there it is good for me.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6631847/Eden-Hazard-insists-determined-performing-Chelsea-Maurizio-Sarri-criticism.html

“If I could choose, I prefer the role I played in the last 10 minutes. On the flank, on the left, I feel more comfortable. That is my position.”

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2018/2/22/17039616/eden-hazard-reflects-on-having-to-play-as-center-forward

Searched for about 5-10 minutes so not the best sources just the first few that came up, but those are direct quotes from Hazard. I'm sure there are others as I remember him talking about it under Conte as well.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:32 pm

I hear you but I will caution that he is talking about playing winger vs playing striker. I don't think he will mind playing number 10

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Post by chad4401 on Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:35 pm

3 or 4 in midfield>2 with madrid defense and what's the point of 10 again? Just let it die already, the club is prob gonna keep 433 as the foundation until its broken.

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:43 pm

I disagree. It Depends what kind do of midfielder you play in the double pivot. If you aim to play Modric and Kroos then it's going to be a complete failure. But if you play for example Llorente, at the best of what we have seen of him + another box to box player like Ndombele or Kante then that's something else entirely.

Furthermore we are slowly but surely phasing out Marcelo who had been a week points of our ability to defend in transition for years. And obviously you need the front three to defend, again our personnel is way less divaish now than when we had Ozil and CR etc...

I don't care about a n10 just arguing that a front 4 would yield more attacking power than having to rely on a CF to score all the goals. We might not come across a generational monster like CR so building an attack with a more balanced attacking potential is something we need to look at

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Post by chad4401 on Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:56 pm

OK since you put it that way fair enough I agree on all your points, but personally I feel that could still be possible with a 433 just change the approach play from crossing to a quick short passing, diagonal through balls runs from deep etc.

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