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Post by McLewis on Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:29 pm

So in light of recent events and discussions I've had on this forum, I think a thread on racism is needed. Specifically, I want to make sure the respective politics threads don't get dominated by topics of race like the Canadian one did. So I felt a separate thread was necessary.

Discuss or post any topics relating to race here. Please keep in mind that forum rules are in effect so keep discussions civil and respectful. Disagreements and differing opinions should be expected.

My intention for this thread is that it not be a US-centric thread on race. Racism is a global issue so this thread is for all of those issues. That said, I'm going to kick this thread off with....you guessed it.....a US race issue. The most-talked about topic right now:



The victim, Botham Jean, was eating ice cream on his couch when he was killed by Guyger. His brother forgave her after the verdict and hugged her.



The judge (a black woman btw) who rendered the verdict also hugged them both.

My take: Amber Guyger got off light. By Texas law, she's eligible for parole in 5 years. That's essentially a pass for murdering an innocent, unarmed man in his own apartment because she thought it was hers. There is no consolation in the fact that she's now a felon, can't vote and will never be a police officer again while being a literal pariah to the black community here. She should be locked up for life because if the roles were reversed Botham Jean would be in prison for life or on death row. Guyger's family likely wouldn't be asking him for hugs and the judge sure as hell wouldn't be either. That said, good on the victim's brother for forgiving her. He's a far better man than I because I could never do it and I wouldn't want my family forgiving my killer, no matter what race they are.
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Post by Unique on Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:36 pm

How the hell did she mistake her apartment for his. I mean you have to have half a brain to become a police officer and she don't know her own apartment. I'm guessing she meant to shoot him and used that as an excuse.

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Post by El Gunner on Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:58 pm

According to the law standards for murder that is definitely too light a sentence. But i don't want to get into debates over the legal system because there are so many moral issues and grey areas surrounding it. You are right though, McLewis, had it been the other way around things definitely wouldn't have gone down that way.

As for racism. We are all victim to race and skin colour stereotypes by virtue of having to go through this egoic parasitic capitalist structured material realm of existence. One day, though, one day good will triumph evil and our spirits will ascend completely from this parasitical realm.

Stay kind and considerate of others always, lads.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage on Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:10 pm

Help me understand something here please: How could she mistake her own apartment for his? Even if we were to assume that the two apartments are identical from the outside, the locks are definitely not the same.

Let's now assume for a second that the door was already open and she didn't need keys to go inside, the furnishings are still different.

There are literally countless clues that can help you figure out almost instantly whether or not the house you've just entered is yours, even if it's surrounded by a myriad of identical houses.

And thinking about it right now, there are only three possible scenarios behind this murder:

1. She was under the influence of a controlled substance or in an intoxicated state of near lunacy.

2. She's mentally instable.

3. She was harboring a grudge.

Can't think of a fourth reason right now, but I feel like there's another one I may be missing.

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Post by futbol on Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:37 pm

Of course she enters a different appartment with a completely different looking room, furniture, couch, TV, different arrangement of everything and shoots the guy because she thought it's her own appartment. Of course. LMAO

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:57 pm

She shoots because Texas police are taught to shoot by instinct. She didn't have time to take in that everything was wrong. Yet another tragedy caused by the US obsession with guns.

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Post by Unique on Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:07 pm

A mate of mine spent 11 hours in the police station the other day after being arrested for assault and robbery. He didn't do it because he was 50 miles away at the time having a boxing match but when he asked them why he was arrested they said his ID had been used that night in a club near by. He is mixed race but he does have a record for serious assault robbery and robbing drug dealers. But so have some of the white lads that was in the club as well but they never got pulled in. Take from that what you will.

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Post by futbol_bill on Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:50 pm

If he’s a mate of yours, that’s enough reasonable grounds to bring him in!
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Post by McLewis on Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:51 pm

For those of you wondering how Guyger possibly got the wrong apartment, the official excuse is that she was drunk. If illegal to drink and drive, it should be illegal to handle firearms while intoxicated or under the influence, but it's Texas so nothing gets in the way of their ability to own guns and use them.

@Unique - That's a pretty common reality around here unfortunately. If you're the wrong skin color (which is anything, but white pretty much) and you got some priors on you (more often than not, it doesn't even matter what those priors are), you're already irredeemable in the eyes of cops and it becomes very easy for them to make something stick on you so that they can put you away and improve their arrest numbers. This is a problem in cities with big urban areas like Detroit and Baltimore as well as larger cities like Chicago.
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Post by Thimmy on Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:34 pm

Laughed my arse off when I saw her and she happens to look 90% like my actual neighbor. I may not be colored, but I'll lock my front door extra tight tonight. As for the issue of race and crime - I don't think I've ever experienced one particular race being stigmatized or suspected on account of their race in the areas where I've lived. When I was in elementary and junior high, the Eastern European immigrants were the usual suspects. Immigrants and illegal workers from mainly Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Bosnia, Albania, and Lithuania did a lot of petty and organized crime in my hometown, and they were often suspected whenever the perpetrator of a crime or vandalism was unknown. Even kids down to the age of 5-10 were vandalizing things around my school using stolen tools. My school happened to be close to the immigration process facility and "the projects" in the area.

I don't get the impression that these stigmatized groups of people are necessarily judged based on their race, but rather the associations people have with people who look like them or share their culture (i.e. not strictly skin color). Of course, I'm not saying that's right, but I believe it's in human nature to look for common denominators. Where I currently live, one of the more multi-cultural cities in Norway, the only stigmatized group of people I can think of is the Somalians. Yes, not black people or African immigrants, but the Somalians specifically. There's been a certain degree of scepticism towards Somalians for as long as I've lived here. I've had my fair share of negative experiences with certain Somalians as well, and even my only black friend avoids other Somalians in the area despite being Somalian himself. Parts of their culture just don't match well with a relatively progressive country like Norway, and evidently, a lot of Somalian men in this city don't care or want to integrate themselves. And they don't have to.

The lack of ability or incentives for immigrants to get integrated into Swedish and Norwegian culture is a frustrating issue that never seems to substantially improve, and a large part of the reason for that is that we're politically bottlenecked by a very progressive mindset that insists that immigrants should be appealed to or urged to, rather than setting any type of demand. It generally becomes a problem for both the immigrant and the country of immigration when the integration process fails, and I really can't wrap my head around why we have to put on the slik gloves for issues related to this topic.

Personally, as silly as it sounds, I wouldn't mind it if we had imposed a stricter integration process on white immigrants. That would be actual progress, and our super liberal politicians wouldn't be able to pull the race card, save for a few people on the ever evolving, gender scale Rolling Eyes

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Post by McLewis on Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:06 pm

Insightful post.

What is it about Somalian culture that you feel doesn't mesh with Norwegian culture? Is it religion given that Somalia is predominantly Muslim and Norway Lutheran Christian?
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Post by Thimmy on Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:47 pm

@McLewis wrote:Insightful post.

What is it about Somalian culture that you feel doesn't mesh with Norwegian culture? Is it religion given that Somalia is predominantly Muslim and Norway Lutheran Christian?


It's mostly related to the extreme conservatism of their culture, and the progressivism of ours. For instance, I've met more than one Somalian man who, not only have multiple wives and kids, but take out their frustrations on their wives by beating them. I don't want to get too involved in such things as they're not my business, but I made a poor attempt at convincing a certain Somalian guy to stop hitting his wife (my former colleague), and he basically warned me to stay out of it because I don't understand Somalian culture. I may not be an expert on their culture, but I know they have a very culturally degrading view on women, which is in stark contrast to the increasingly feminism- oriented views here. Polygamy is illegal here, and obviously, so is domestic abuse. If he had been a white man, I'm sure a lot of people would have reported him to the police as soon as his wife showed up to work with a bruised eye.

I don't know how much of it is based in Islam. The only Somali guy I know well, is a pretty liberal muslim who's lived most of his life in Norway and is as well adapted to our culture as anyone who was born here. I have a female colleague from Somalia as well, but she also seems to be quite religiously liberal. They both eat non-Halal meat, as long as it's not made out of pork, for instance. Another reason why people are skeptical towards Somalian men here is that they're responsible for the majority of the blind violence in this city. It's pretty hard to ignore, considering they're so well represented in that respect. Again, I believe that's a result of poor, or a complete lack of integration, but that's just how it is.

On a sidenote, from my experience, the majority of Norwegians are either atheist or secular Christian. There are certain cities and areas in the country with a large concentration of Conservative Christians, especially in the south, but I believe those are in the minority. I imagine we're among the least religious countries in the world. I was raised Christian, but I'm no longer religious myself. Most of the kids I grew up with either weren't religious, or they referred to themselves as Christian for some arbitrary reason like, they thought it made them seem more kind, or something along those lines.

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Post by McLewis on Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:19 pm

Yeah that's generally been my impression of Norway's religious makeup. Very secular and trending away from the more devout religiosity of previous generations.

One thing that I've learned from studying the history of different cultures is that across different religions, the treatment of women remains pretty much the same. Historically, the Chinese, Japanese, Greeks and Romans all treated women significantly worse than in Islamic society. One thing I keep remembering specifically about Somalia though is that it is a haven for radical Islam so while Islam is inherently patriarchal and has been since its founding, that is a lot more pronounced in places like Somalia so when that culture clashes with a historically progressive culture like that of Norway, there's going to be tension.

Integration is definitely something that Norwegians have a right to desire from immigrants to their country. It's a delicate situation naturally.
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Post by Myesyats on Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:44 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:She shoots because Texas police are taught to shoot by instinct.

Even so, shouldn't the instinct be to aim for the legs? That way you can't really kill anybody but you're able to efficiently stop a potential aggressor. What about back up, take cover, warning shot? This seems like cold blooded murder all around.
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Post by Young Kaz on Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:18 am

That(Guyger) whole trial was terrible. From the judge, to the brother, to the sentence. A true miscarriage of justice.


When I saw this thread the first thing that came to my mind was the recent Bernardo Silva controversy in Football.

Bernardo posted this:
The Racism Thread 584

That is horrific, and put together with him saying Mendy was naked when wearing a black shirt(when mendy's skin color isnt that black at all) says all you need to know about Bernardo. He's a racist. The tweet is one thing, but I have never met a person who makes a statement like the shirt thing who did no have racial animus in their heart. When you are a minority you can always tell specific buzwords to when a person has hatred in their heart. Its the same way when somebody(Trump,Sepi,Lester Maddox,ect) tells an ethnic minority to go back to where they came. It doesnt matter if a person was born, and raised in a location, if you are not white you are the other.

Another thing Ive noticed is I have never met a person(nonasian) with an Asian wife or significant other who didnt, at the same time, hate Asians. When I was younger I thought they just hated Asian men, but listening to the guys talk it was never about appreciating Asian-womenhood. It always came down to white women and how they are too "Feminist" or Sleep with black men too much" or something even more absurd. God help their kids.

The racist is the small(er) issue. How society reacts is the big one.

Mendy has to laugh when Bernardo likens his childhood picture to that of a racial stereotype because if he doesnt he is seen in the worse light for not taking the joke.

Sterling, who knows more than anyone the danger of racism in society, has to speak out in support of a bigot just for team unity.

Pep simply vindicated Yaya Toure through all of this. A fantastic footballing mind, perhaps, but hes proved what kind of leader he really is. Not flattering.

A generation of black Britons lose an idol in John Barnes because he cant look past the own abuse he suffered to understand what young men today go through.

At the end of the day the Bernardo story is like the Guyger and every other racist episode. No winners exist in any of this. Bernardo needs to face multiple matches with a ban, and should be forced to attend a class during this time.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:51 am

@Young Kaz wrote:
Bernardo posted this:
The Racism Thread 584

That is horrific, and put together with him saying Mendy was naked when wearing a black shirt(when mendy's skin color isnt that black at all) says all you need to know about Bernardo. He's a racist. The tweet is one thing, but I have never met a person who makes a statement like the shirt thing who did no have racial animus in their heart.

Mendy has to laugh when Bernardo likens his childhood picture to that of a racial stereotype because if he doesnt he is seen in the worse light for not taking the joke.

Sterling, who knows more than anyone the danger of racism in society, has to speak out in support of a bigot just for team unity.

Pep simply vindicated Yaya Toure through all of this. A fantastic footballing mind, perhaps, but hes proved what kind of leader he really is. Not flattering.

A generation of black Britons lose an idol in John Barnes because he cant look past the own abuse he suffered to understand what young men today go through.

At the end of the day the Bernardo story is like the Guyger and every other racist episode. No winners exist in any of this. Bernardo needs to face multiple matches with a ban, and should be forced to attend a class during this time.


Uhhh... you are going off the deep end here. The Bernardo story is nothing like the Guyger story. You can't equate a silly joke with no intent to harm with a murder, even if both had racist subtexts.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:53 am

@Myesyats wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:She shoots because Texas police are taught to shoot by instinct.

Even so, shouldn't the instinct be to aim for the legs? That way you can't really kill anybody but you're able to efficiently stop a potential aggressor. What about back up, take cover, warning shot? This seems like cold blooded murder all around.
In the US you are taught to shoot to kill, not to disable. After all, what if he had a gun? In that case, shooting at the legs would do no good if he could still shoot back, and you might be dead.

The problem in the US is that when everyone might have a gun then deadly force becomes a lot more acceptable. If guns were a rare thing then deadly force would not be encouraged in favor of other forms of keeping order, like in civilized countries. But if every time you run into an altercation you think the other person might pull a gun on you then you are going to want to protect yourself.

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Post by Thimmy on Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:29 am

On the topic of shooting to kill in the US: A Norwegian man in his 30s flew to the US to surprise his 60-year-old father in law on his birthday. The fresh 60-year-old had apparently argued with someone earlier in the day, and was, for whatever reason, armed with a gun in anticipation for a visit from the guy he'd argued with over the phone. When his son in law rang the doorbell and leaped in front of the door to surprise him, the 60-year-old shot and instantly killed him :facepalm: The sheriff department in Santa Rosa state that the 60-year-old won't be persecuted.

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Post by Young Kaz on Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:25 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@Young Kaz wrote:
Bernardo posted this:
The Racism Thread 584

That is horrific, and put together with him saying Mendy was naked when wearing a black shirt(when mendy's skin color isnt that black at all) says all you need to know about Bernardo. He's a racist. The tweet is one thing, but I have never met a person who makes a statement like the shirt thing who did no have racial animus in their heart.

Mendy has to laugh when Bernardo likens his childhood picture to that of a racial stereotype because if he doesnt he is seen in the worse light for not taking the joke.

Sterling, who knows more than anyone the danger of racism in society, has to speak out in support of a bigot just for team unity.

Pep simply vindicated Yaya Toure through all of this. A fantastic footballing mind, perhaps, but hes proved what kind of leader he really is. Not flattering.

A generation of black Britons lose an idol in John Barnes because he cant look past the own abuse he suffered to understand what young men today go through.

At the end of the day the Bernardo story is like the Guyger and every other racist episode. No winners exist in any of this. Bernardo needs to face multiple matches with a ban, and should be forced to attend a class during this time.


Uhhh... you are going off the deep end here. The Bernardo story is nothing like the Guyger story. You can't equate a silly joke with no intent to harm with a murder, even if both had racist subtexts.


They are both recent examples of racism, how there are no winners in racism, and the effect of racism on society.

They are nothing alike to you because that isnt the cultural context you have experience with. I live in a place where people watched this:

Spoiler:
The Racism Thread Img-songimg-320-15704

and then went on to treat these groups as indistinguishable jokes in terms of abuse and other acts. Even now their lives dont matter through this representation because "conguitos" and others arent viewed as people. Bernardo's boss is on record in recent history saying there are black people, Indian people, and then normal people. This is an idea at play here. He even said Mendy looked like the conguitos caricature. Neutral

On the idea of no intent to harm, I wouldnt be so sure. You dont make a joke like that if there is no intent to harm. The harm is where the punch of it comes from. Obviously its not directly, in his eye, malicious. When you know someone though you know which button to push.
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Post by Vibe on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:11 am

There is racism, and there is people looking for racism where there isn't any. The second one disgusts me almost as much as the first one.

Only thing that can make me dislike someone is their personality, nothing else. I just hate Indians. What's up with them, FFS.

But times of tolerance are long gone. If people see the slightest opportunity to get offended, they will and they will milk every last ounce and make a big deal out of it. Not just about racism, but in general.

Anyway, forgiveness is the way forward. Hate is soul poison. I've never hated anyone, and I've always forgiven everything, and life has always paid me back for this... I don't think I've ever felt bad in my life, I've never been sad, I've never been miserable. Most of it comes from within.

The sooner you forgive, the sooner you forget and lessen the impact of bad things.

It really is that simple. Forgiveness is the road to a happier life.
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Post by Young Kaz on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:42 am

@Vibe wrote:There is racism, and there is people looking for racism where there isn't any. The second one disgusts me almost as much as the first one.

Only thing that can make me dislike someone is their personality, nothing else. I just hate Indians. What's up with them, FFS.

But times of tolerance are long gone. If people see the slightest opportunity to get offended, they will and they will milk every last ounce and make a big deal out of it. Not just about racism, but in general.

Anyway, forgiveness is the way forward. Hate is soul poison. I've never hated anyone, and I've always forgiven everything, and life has always paid me back for this... I don't think I've ever felt bad in my life, I've never been sad, I've never been miserable. Most of it comes from within.

The sooner you forgive, the sooner you forget and lessen the impact of bad things.

It really is that simple. Forgiveness is the road to a happier life.


What do you mean times of tolerance are gone? You have never lived one second of your life outside of the 21st century son...and in fact I know people, personally, the year you were born getting the shit kicked out of them by people who assumed(wrongly I might add) that they were Muslim.

Its milked so that kids like you dont grow up thinking people today are going to accept what was being dished out in the past. Never Again as the jews would say.
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Post by Myesyats on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:44 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@Myesyats wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:She shoots because Texas police are taught to shoot by instinct.

Even so, shouldn't the instinct be to aim for the legs? That way you can't really kill anybody but you're able to efficiently stop a potential aggressor. What about back up, take cover, warning shot? This seems like cold blooded murder all around.
In the US you are taught to shoot to kill, not to disable. After all, what if he had a gun? In that case, shooting at the legs would do no good if he could still shoot back, and you might be dead.

The problem in the US is that when everyone might have a gun then deadly force becomes a lot more acceptable. If guns were a rare thing then deadly force would not be encouraged in favor of other forms of keeping order, like in civilized countries. But if every time you run into an altercation you think the other person might pull a gun on you then you are going to want to protect yourself.

Okay thats fair, forgot we were talking about a third-world country with 1800s regulations in place.

As for the main idea of the thread, I don't really care or deal with racism because it doesnt track with me. Happened to be born in a extremely homogenous country (that used to be very multicultural once upon a time) with virtually no colored residents around me except for students maybe. There were a lot of Jews around but Nazis killed or resettled most of them, the rest fled probably.

Arab-muslim are mostly looked down on though I think. Because of ISIS i'd guess.
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Post by Vibe on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:41 am

@Young Kaz wrote:
@Vibe wrote:There is racism, and there is people looking for racism where there isn't any. The second one disgusts me almost as much as the first one.

Only thing that can make me dislike someone is their personality, nothing else. I just hate Indians. What's up with them, FFS.

But times of tolerance are long gone. If people see the slightest opportunity to get offended, they will and they will milk every last ounce and make a big deal out of it. Not just about racism, but in general.

Anyway, forgiveness is the way forward. Hate is soul poison. I've never hated anyone, and I've always forgiven everything, and life has always paid me back for this... I don't think I've ever felt bad in my life, I've never been sad, I've never been miserable. Most of it comes from within.

The sooner you forgive, the sooner you forget and lessen the impact of bad things.

It really is that simple. Forgiveness is the road to a happier life.


What do you mean times of tolerance are gone? You have never lived one second of your life outside of the 21st century son...


Forgive me, father from another century. :bow:
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Post by Nishankly on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:47 am

@Vibe wrote:

Only thing that can make me dislike someone is their personality, nothing else. I just hate Indians. What's up with them, FFS.



Sad

Not all of us are all bad imho.

---

But then again I assume most opinions about Indians are formed from the local shop owners and the internet. Unless you tag along the Roma people with as well for the East.

We have 80% of the country in middle and poor class with 70% living in rural areas without education but free internet! Its obvious you're more likely to meet people who can't behave socially when your developed countries are handing out visas like candy to 0 skilled & minimum wage labour force.

Move to America and this negative perception about India changes majorly.

----

I have been racially profiled at Tallinn airport in Estonia. I was the only brown person in the flight and the only one that called into a room for a security check during domestic travel within EU. I had a couple of instances in Budapest as well where I was singled out in clubs by security just to confirm even though I hadn't even had my first drink Laughing

I understand about safety so I don't really have a problem with any of this. I laugh it out with the person checking me.

Everyone has prejudices, that's fair but its about giving a chance to everyone you meet before judging them. If you don't give a chance and have an opinion before meeting then you're just a waste of space right now who belongs to an era 100 years back.


Last edited by Nishankly on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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The Racism Thread Empty Re: The Racism Thread

Post by Young Kaz on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:49 am

@Vibe wrote:
@Young Kaz wrote:
@Vibe wrote:There is racism, and there is people looking for racism where there isn't any. The second one disgusts me almost as much as the first one.

Only thing that can make me dislike someone is their personality, nothing else. I just hate Indians. What's up with them, FFS.

But times of tolerance are long gone. If people see the slightest opportunity to get offended, they will and they will milk every last ounce and make a big deal out of it. Not just about racism, but in general.

Anyway, forgiveness is the way forward. Hate is soul poison. I've never hated anyone, and I've always forgiven everything, and life has always paid me back for this... I don't think I've ever felt bad in my life, I've never been sad, I've never been miserable. Most of it comes from within.

The sooner you forgive, the sooner you forget and lessen the impact of bad things.

It really is that simple. Forgiveness is the road to a happier life.


What do you mean times of tolerance are gone? You have never lived one second of your life outside of the 21st century son...


Forgive me, father from another century. :bow:


Do you think the 20th century was more tolerant than the world you live in now in the 21st century?
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