Spain NT discussion

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:37 am

More worrying to me is the quality of Spanish coaches. There is VDB, Pep and... Pepe Mel?

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Post by Winter is Coming on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:39 am

I'd switch Isco for Deulofeu/Jese as well. Neither of the two are afraid to take a shot and take opponents on when needed too. I'd also like to see how Alcacer as a candidate depending on how he develops this season with Valencia they lost a lot of key players etc he scored 14 goals and 3 assist in 36 apps not bad for a 20 year. Also I almost forgot Muniain should be there as well either bench or starter.

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Post by Winter is Coming on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:40 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:More worrying to me is the quality of Spanish coaches. There is VDB, Pep and... Pepe Mel?


Valverde, Emery aren't that bad. Theres Rafa also lol

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Post by futbol on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:47 am

You don't need a Spanish coach. hmm

Pochettino Asspanyol legend. :bow:

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:34 am

So noone rates Negredo? Seems a bit strange to me, I thought he looked great for city hmm

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Post by messixaviesta on Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:09 am

@Arquitescu wrote:
Vicente del Bosque remains the finest manager in the world for me yet like old managers in the form of Capello, Lippi, Clemente, Ancelotti etc he is ancient with those typical Mediterranean stubborn values that are the bane of the peninsulas. I support him on till Euro 2012 (provide he changes) as such is the need for him to carry our transition yet that must be his final tournament, like Italia; you do not carry such cycles with one manager for a second World Cup let alone Italia. We still have the best talent in the world and ALL the resources of our now emerging regional philosophies at our feet, no need to panic. Yet, Football in its century+ of evolution has its own intangible forces and dynamics that one party can never hone.

We are humbled and its hurts like a never-ending headache. But t had to happen sooner or later, regardless of all the fingers pointed aat whom at whatnot.

Y Viva España, Vamos.

I agree completely with your sentiments but still differ a little bit on what could have been done.

My thought largely is it was too late to change much and even if the changes that people are now asking for had been done the end results would have likely not been much better. Here are some points that I would like to make.

1. If radical changes are to be made when is the time to do them? They need to be done after a WC or Euro ends, not before one begins. This in turn means that changes should have been made immediately after Euro 2012. However I ask how is any manager on earth to do that? How do you suddenly throw away players who have once again won such a major tournament in spite of all the criticism?

2. Considering all that the golden generation had achieved they had earned the right to defend this world cup. Imagine if many of them had been dropped and the results had been similar what about the furore that would emerge now about not taking them? Need I remind people how much Aragones had to struggle after dropping Raul and here we are talking about dropping half the team.

3. Some of the names that people are suggesting should have been there are players who are either too young or have just come into prominence. I don't think they could have fitted into this style so easily. What is needed is for them to practise with this team for some time so that they are ready for Euro 2016.

4. It's not completely right to compare with Italy 2010. Their Euro 2008 had been a dismal failure and Confed 2009 even worse. Radical changes were clearly needed but Lippi ignored them. He also kept out talented players from his squad due to personal disputes, something Del Bosque never did. Spain on the other hand won Euro 2012 and reached the final of Confed 2013. The final there could easily be interpreted as a one off match especially after the marathon against Italy. Without anything actually happening how can major changes be made just on speculation. Now that we have seen actual failure for the first time in many years yes changes are very much needed. Not changing enough for Euro 2016 would indeed be completely akin to Lippi's WC 2010 antics.

5. Spain were not in a good condition before Euro 2012. We had been hammered in friendlies by Argentina and Portugal. Some thought there itself the era would clearly end. If Del Bosque had listened to the armchair coaches then would we have won Euro 2012? No he did it his way. Similarly he had every right to do things his way in WC 2014.

6. Only minor changes I can actually accept could have been better. One is having Llorente instead of Costa. The other is using Villa as a substitute instead of Torres. That apart there is hardly anything else where I think a change could have been really significant.

7. Yes now certainly there should be changes. There is nothing like world cup to end an era. The likes of Xavi, Casillas, Villa, Torres and Alonso should declare international retirement. What's more is that the last game against Australia should be their testimonial especially the maestro Xavi's.

8. With the highest respect Del Bosque should quit now. To take a new generation forward a younger man with fresher ideas is needed.

9. More than the players aging or lack of form I think what was missing this time was the collective determination. It's not the first time teams have closed down our spaces and tried to overpower us physically but we showed great strength and togetherness to combat it. As Del Bosque himself said something was missing this time, a certain spark. His team looked surprisingly meek even to him. This was the swansong of the golden generation and if only it had ended better than this but what's done is done. Let's see what the next generation can do. They are talented but have a very long way to go.

10. Above all though I would like to immensely thank and commend this golden generation who changed the history of Spanish football forever. From perennial underachievers to one of the best national teams of all time that won a historic three major international tournaments in a row, what they have achieved is staggering. Boasting one of the finest generations of footballers any nation has ever produced or is ever likely to produce especially in midfield these are the ones whose tales will forever be told. Xavi and Iniesta are to Spain what Zidane is to France - an eternal emblem. Casillas for all his current ridicule has been nothing short of a miracle worker in our best days. Villa is our all time top scorer who has scored so many times just when we needed most. I could go on about so many other players but it's just that an era has ended. True champions are ending their story here, at least some of them, and at this moment they deserve our salute rather than our criticism.


Last edited by messixaviesta on Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by The Franchise on Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:48 am

Seriously, why not Rafa?


As for Deulofeu/Jese instead of Isco, I would cosign that too. But only on the basis that Jese returns from injury fine and Deulofeu plays games. If neither of those things happens, it cant be them.
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Post by Adit on Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:44 pm

@The Franchise wrote:Once the WC is over with, the first meaningful game Spain play how radical should their changes be?

Obviously alot depends on coach and who retires and such and such, but if its up to you, what 11 starts the next relevant Spain match post WC?

Ignore the possibility of bad form and injuries. Chose an 11.

I think for me


------------------------De Gea------------------------

Azpli---------Martinez---------Ramos----------Alba

------------------------Busquets----------------------

Isco----------Thiago----------Iniesta-----------Koke

-----------  ---------Costa (by default)---------------







3 of the same back 4 would terrify me if I gave a crap about Spain, but im sorry, as average as Azpli is with the ball, Carvajal isnt the answer. He is just a regular rightback, doesnt make any difference whatsoever. You know I dislike Alba, but Monreal is even worse. Maybe Moreno can pull up some trees early and win that place.

Either way, with Koke in front of him you would imagine the leftback would get protected more.

Got to fill the bench with youngsters, the likes of Jese if he returns from injury well, Deulofeu if he gets chances and plays how im sure he will at Barca, the remainder of the old guard such as Cesc, Silva, Pique, Martinez and I guess Costa if he isnt starting.



I dont know..your formation still lacks the runners who could attack the box and score goals. Basically lacks speed too, both of them which are the problems of the current team.

Just like fussbol said Apzi just really horrible on the ball that chilian Left winger could double mark two players at the same time.That left winger stayed centrally and barely marked Apzi yet it made no difference as he turned the ball over at the slightest pressure.I would play Carvajal as he is strong in one on one situations and definitely know how to get out of the pressing situations.

Jese or Delefuelu are a must as this Spain badly need pace and scoring ability, if both of them are ready the better.

I also dont believe Busquets can operate as a lone DM..NT as the chemistry is low is going to turn the ball around alot and he is too slow and unathletic to be a lone DM.

Carvajal------Pique---------Ramos------Alba

-------------Busquets-------Koke/Thiago

...............................Iniesta


Delefuelu/Navas............Costa................Jese


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Post by The Franchise on Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:54 pm

Sure, but I find it a bit...not sure of the word...but chosing Deulofeu and Jese in the starting 11, at this point is a bit superficial given what I said a post ago. Remember, I did say the team for the next game, not the next Euros or WC for example.

Also, Iniesta isnt a 10. I think I understand it makes sense to play him there, but he doesnt find the spaces in between the lines constantly like a 10. He likes to drift, he likes freedom. It works well for Ozil (used to) because his lateral movements gets filled with wingers (Muller, Di Maria at Madrid) who can take his place inside with or without the ball.

I disagree about Busquets. He is always the same, nothing changes. You make him defend too much space and he will always suffer, doesnt matter what the tactics are. Dropping Thiago/Koke that deep also negates some of what they do.

It goes without saying, no matter who plays the tactics have to be on point. If they are, there is zero doubt in my mind Busquets will do what he has done.
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Post by M99 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:57 pm

From Spain's training session.

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/p261x260/10426856_781709945194605_8394475319008901432_n.jpg

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Post by halamadrid2 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:10 pm

Whoever Spain get as a coach don't think they will change from the 4-3-3 they are currently playing and they shouldn't because most of the spanish teams play that formation so it would be best to continue with it.

In terms of the coach I wouldn't mind Lopotegui coaching them, he did a fine job with the spanish u21 team

When the next qualifiers start this is the formation I'd like them to deploy barrng injuries:

DeGea
Carvajal-Inigo-Ramos-Alba
Thiago/Koke-Martinez/Busq-Isco/Muniain
Jese-Someone-Iniesta

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Post by The Franchise on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:14 pm

Lopetegui just took over at Porto.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:15 pm

@The Franchise wrote:Seriously, why not Rafa?
that would imply a compete change in philosophy I'm not sure the Spanish people are willing to make.

Valverde is a good option but he strikes me as a bit young. I forgot Emery was Spanish Laughing

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Post by che on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:20 pm

oh i would pay serious money to watch emery coach spain... they would never beat a half decent team in an elimination game ever again Laughing

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Post by halamadrid2 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:22 pm

Then that doesn't leave many options behind

Despite the general opinion that a young coach is needed I don't think it will ever happen unless they could do both club and nt kind of like Fathi Terim (sp). Young coaches feel comfortable starting their careers somewhere low but when they are ready to coach elite players NT would probably be somewhere in the back of their head for when they are close to retiring. I don't blame them because the thought of coaching players week in week out must be alot more appealing than a couple of times every year
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Post by halamadrid2 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:24 pm

Rmery wouldn't need to coach them. Just put the playets together and entertain us on the sidelines with the heavy gesticulating Laughing
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Post by timzink on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:46 pm

lol piquenbauer . ive been saying for years that pique is hugely overrated . im surprised barca haven't turfed him out yet . once they recognise the liability that he actually is their defence will improve . Ramos has been keeping the spain defence together by himself the last few years .

Its clear that the single most determinant of success in international football these days is pace, spain need pace . find away of incorporating pace and spains natural footballing ability and bobs your uncle .

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Post by Art Morte on Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:48 pm

Apparently the Spanish FA are backing VDB, so I guess he's staying.
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Post by halamadrid2 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:06 pm

That's a free ticket to the NT for Montoya, Bartra, Roberto, Deulofeu, Rafinha then..........great
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Post by messixaviesta on Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:36 pm

@Art Morte wrote:Apparently the Spanish FA are backing VDB, so I guess he's staying.


After what he has achieved there was never a question of anyone sacking him. He would have to walk out on his own. I think it's the right time for him to do so. One reason is that we need fresher ideas. The second is that a new man will find it much easier to dispose of the stalwarts. Best would be if the stalwarts take voluntary retirement. Since there is talent coming through there is no point blocking their paths when we have two years now to rebuild.

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Post by futbol on Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:40 pm

@halamadrid2 wrote:That's a free ticket to the NT for Montoya, Bartra, Roberto, Deulofeu, Rafinha then..........great


Rafinha has chosen Brazil, not Spain.

Other than that, yes, it's great. It's a proven fact that you can only win with Barca players leading the team, not with Mehdrid scrubs. 1 or 2 Mehdrid scrubs are carryable but no more.

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Post by halamadrid2 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:51 pm

I would be very careful if I were you or else we wouldnt produce another Casillas to bail Spain out when they are up against a wall again Proud
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Post by Donuts on Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:32 pm

please don't produce another iker, we've seen his talents on the floor and don't want it anymore.

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Post by messixaviesta on Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:03 pm

Don't we have enough Barca Madrid rivalry throughout the year? Is there any need to get into that now? Iker Casillas may have had a bad tournament but I will never forget his immense contributions in all that this team has achieved. My respect for him remains unchanged.

For the record I consider him the third most significant player in this era of Spain after Iniesta and Xavi and just ahead of Villa.

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Post by harhar11 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:09 pm

@halamadrid2 wrote:I would be very careful if I were you or else we wouldnt produce another Casillas to bail Spain out when they are up against a wall again Proud


Casillas is just a shot stopper, but in every other aspect he is just average. Valdes and De Gea are not exactly bad shot stopper, maybe not at Casillas level, but they are top class at it while being better at collecting crosses and playing with their feet.

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:29 pm

Jesus, stop bad mouthing Casillas, just because he's old now and had a bad tournament. As had anyone else.
Was one of the world's best keepers, if not the best, for years and years.
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