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Post by Harmonica on Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:39 pm

Since 09-10

C.Ronaldo 273 goals for Real Madrid

Directly assisted goals 193 or 71%
Penalty or tap-in goals 84 or 31%

Messi 283 goals for Barcelona

Directly assisted goals 138 or 49%
Penalty or tap-in goals 52 or 18%

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Post by sportsczy on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:04 pm

Ronaldo has scored 21 goals on a total of 80 shots for Madrid this season... 26,25%!!!

Benz has 8 goals on 25 shots.... 32%!!!

frakkin lethal by both of them.

Messi has 9 goals on 53 shots (17%) and Neymar has 11 goals on 37 shots (29,7%).

So really, Messi is BY FAR the least efficient player in the group.

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:19 pm

Until you take penalties, and tap-ins out.

C.Ronaldo 11/70 16%
Messi 9/53 17%

Since 09-10 in La Liga

C.Ronaldo 193 (41p) goals, 1229 shots = 7.8 shots per goal excluding penalties

Messi 196 (25p) goals, 879 shots =  5.0 shots per goal excluding penalties
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:36 pm

@Harmonica wrote:Until you take penalties, and tap-ins out.

C.Ronaldo 11/70 16%
Messi 9/53 17%

Since 09-10 in La Liga

C.Ronaldo 193 (41p) goals, 1229 shots = 7.8 shots per goal excluding penalties

Messi 196 (25p) goals, 879 shots =  5.0 shots per goal excluding penalties


well take penalties out when comparing shot efficiency ok, but why take 'tap-ins' out? If Ronaldo's better at converting those at the moment, that should be reflected don't you think?

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:42 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Until you take penalties, and tap-ins out.

C.Ronaldo 11/70 16%
Messi 9/53 17%

Since 09-10 in La Liga

C.Ronaldo 193 (41p) goals, 1229 shots = 7.8 shots per goal excluding penalties

Messi 196 (25p) goals, 879 shots =  5.0 shots per goal excluding penalties


well take penalties out when comparing shot efficiency ok, but why take 'tap-ins' out? If Ronaldo's better at converting those at the moment, that should be reflected don't you think?
It's not about converting easy chances, it's about converting hard chances. Penalties and tap-ins are easy chances that should be converted every time.

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Post by sportsczy on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:45 pm

Messi is the king of tap ins Laughing  If you want to take all the tap ins Messi scored, you'd take half his goals away Laughing

How about the tap ins Messi scored this year?  What are you considering a "tap in" for Ronaldo?

It's silly anyhow.  Tap ins are completely legit because it's not easy at all to get into position to tap it in.  If you want to discount PKs...  that's legit as long as Messi hasn't taken PKs either.

Anyhow, i'm not going to enter a discussion with you because it's a complete waste of time.

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Post by Bankz on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:54 pm

The classico pretty much guaranteed cr7 the ballon d'or for this year. Cant imagine what would happen if cr7 comes from 4-1 down to level 4-4, i would get a mini heart-attack..my gahd, Cant imagine that tap in merchant holding same record as messi..isn't there another way to determine the winner? *Inb4igeteatenupbycr7guards*
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Post by Harmonica on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:57 pm

Since 09-10

C.Ronaldo 35 tap ins and 49 penalties for Real Madrid
Messi 18 tap ins and 34 penalties for Barcelona

Tap-ins, goals scored when goal keeper isn't in the saving position between ball and the goal.

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Post by Jonesy on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:58 pm

Pichichi of spain and europe, super champions of europe and planet, ronaldo's balon d or i sealed and packaged, the only relevant statistic for this history.

learn to play piano, or rather not, harmonica, crap instrument suits your crap intellect.

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:01 pm

@Harmonica wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Until you take penalties, and tap-ins out.

C.Ronaldo 11/70 16%
Messi 9/53 17%

Since 09-10 in La Liga

C.Ronaldo 193 (41p) goals, 1229 shots = 7.8 shots per goal excluding penalties

Messi 196 (25p) goals, 879 shots =  5.0 shots per goal excluding penalties


well take penalties out when comparing shot efficiency ok, but why take 'tap-ins' out? If Ronaldo's better at converting those at the moment, that should be reflected don't you think?
It's not about converting easy chances, it's about converting hard chances. Penalties and tap-ins are easy chances that should be converted every time.


well all the more stupid if you don't convert them, no?

but see..
there you go, that's the problem I have with you.

You pretend it's only numbers and rationality, all the while you keep intervening in the numbers and selection of data with value judgements, and then it's no wonder they are skewed towards your bias.

In this case your value judgement is "'tap-ins' are so easy chances the numbers are not worth to be inclded", which in effect means you obmit a part of the data where Ronaldo is better than Messi at this point in time.

As for the judgement itself, it is nonsensical of course. If a striker converts one super-difficult chance and then misses 9 sitters, according to your methodology he would be better than one who scores all 9 sitters and misses the super difficult one.

I hope you read this above carefully, because it's important you think about these issues as a self-proclaimed statistics afficionado.

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:24 pm

Sorry but I don't read walls of text, either provide the point with a sentence, or we leave it there.

2014 Official games

Messi 43 (6pen) goals, 25 assists = directly part of 68 goals
Cronaldo 49 (10pen) goals, 12 assists = directly part of 61 goals

So as for 2014 goes, Messi has just 2 non penalty goals less, but 13 assists more.
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Post by Freeza on Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:39 pm

@Harmonica wrote:Sorry but I don't read walls of text, either provide the point with a sentence, or we leave it there.



Nice line to put out every time someone outs your bullshit.

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Post by Dnmac4 on Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:58 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:


well take penalties out when comparing shot efficiency ok, but why take 'tap-ins' out? If Ronaldo's better at converting those at the moment, that should be reflected don't you think?
It's not about converting easy chances, it's about converting hard chances. Penalties and tap-ins are easy chances that should be converted every time.


well all the more stupid if you don't convert them, no?

but see..
there you go, that's the problem I have with you.

You pretend it's only numbers and rationality, all the while you keep intervening in the numbers and selection of data with value judgements, and then it's no wonder they are skewed towards your bias.

In this case your value judgement is "'tap-ins' are so easy chances the numbers are not worth to be inclded", which in effect means you obmit a part of the data where Ronaldo is better than Messi at this point in time.

As for the judgement itself, it is nonsensical of course. If a striker converts one super-difficult chance and then misses 9 sitters, according to your methodology he would be better than one who scores all 9 sitters and misses the super difficult one.

I hope you read this above carefully, because it's important you think about these issues as a self-proclaimed statistics afficionado.


I totally agree with this.

The only question I have is why are people when faced with the numbers putting up quote's like this?

"Messi is the king of tap ins Laughing  If you want to take all the tap ins Messi scored, you'd take half his goals away Laughing

How about the tap ins Messi scored this year?  What are you considering a "tap in" for Ronaldo?
"

I mean either challenge stats but don't just make stuff up.

Also, why don't you confront the people using this year's club goals only as proof of Ronaldo's historical goal scoring efficiency?  I mean there basically doing the same thing are they not?

Taking Ronaldo's bad Portugal games out of the mix and only using the best form he's ever been in in his career in a small sample size of games.

But to your point I have seen enough players mess up "Tap-in's" not to mention positioning is key for an attacker so you have to be in position to shoot on goal with the keeper out of place.  You shouldn't be knocked for making your own job easier.

PS. I have always been a huge proponent of making the person who get's fouled in the box to take the penalty.  For instance, no one would complain about a player padding his stats with PK's if he were to earn everyone he takes.  It's like getting fouled in basketball and letting your best free throw shooter take the FT's every time.

Free kicks I'm fine with but everyone in your starting 11 should be able to take care of there own business from the penalty spot, they are professionals not to mention you wouldn't have fake stats like Ronaldo continuing his goal scoring streak while not creating his own PK or scoring a goal ot Gerrard last year having like 1 goal from open play and 10 PK's.

Since this is a stat thread I hope this wont be taken as complaining but more so to analyze the problem with stats.
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:38 pm

@Harmonica wrote:Sorry but I don't read walls of text, either provide the point with a sentence, or we leave it there.


I even put spaces in between the sentences to enhance your reading comfort Sad

But ok, the point in one sentence.
You're cheating, possibly even unconsciously.

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:43 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Sorry but I don't read walls of text, either provide the point with a sentence, or we leave it there.


I even put spaces in between the sentences to enhance your reading comfort Sad

But ok, the point in one sentence.
You're cheating, possibly even unconsciously.
Not a rational argument.
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Post by Lord Awesome on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:05 pm

@Harmonica wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Sorry but I don't read walls of text, either provide the point with a sentence, or we leave it there.


I even put spaces in between the sentences to enhance your reading comfort Sad

But ok, the point in one sentence.
You're cheating, possibly even unconsciously.
Not a rational argument.


No rational counter argument given. :coffee:

Come now Harmonica, you know it as well as anyone that Ronaldo is the real best player of our generation and very likely of all time. You don't need numbers to display who's who when we can see it on the field. Messi's numbers are heighted mainly by Iniesta & Xavi's and Alves influence. We can see Messi's dependancy when he plays for Argentina. In contrast to Ronaldo who has shined no matter who he has played with.

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Post by Harmonica on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:09 pm

@Lord Awesome wrote:
Come now Harmonica, you know it as well as anyone that Ronaldo is the real best player of our generation and very likely of all time. You don't need numbers to display who's who when we can see it on the field. Messi's numbers are heighted mainly by Iniesta & Xavi's and Alves influence. We can see Messi's dependancy when he plays for Argentina. In contrast to Ronaldo who has shined no matter who he has played with.
I'm not nigerian.
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Post by Lord Awesome on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:17 pm

@Harmonica wrote:
I'm not nigerian.


It's OK take your time.

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Post by Donuts on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:22 pm

@Lord Awesome wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:


I even put spaces in between the sentences to enhance your reading comfort Sad

But ok, the point in one sentence.
You're cheating, possibly even unconsciously.
Not a rational argument.


No rational counter argument given. :coffee:

Come now Harmonica, you know it as well as anyone that Ronaldo is the real best player of our generation and very likely of all time. You don't need numbers to display who's who when we can see it on the field. Messi's numbers are heighted mainly by Iniesta & Xavi's and Alves influence. We can see Messi's dependancy when he plays for Argentina. In contrast to Ronaldo who has shined no matter who he has played with.

ronaldo shined with portugal?
ronaldo had a better year then messi but lets not get carried away lol
also lets not turn this thread into a typical ronaldo vs messi thread its been a topic that's gotten nowhere in the past 4 years.

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Post by Casciavit on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:28 pm

@Lord Awesome wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:


I even put spaces in between the sentences to enhance your reading comfort Sad

But ok, the point in one sentence.
You're cheating, possibly even unconsciously.
Not a rational argument.


No rational counter argument given. :coffee:

Come now Harmonica, you know it as well as anyone that Ronaldo is the real best player of our generation and very likely of all time. You don't need numbers to display who's who when we can see it on the field. Messi's numbers are heighted mainly by Iniesta & Xavi's and Alves influence. We can see Messi's dependancy when he plays for Argentina. In contrast to Ronaldo who has shined no matter who he has played with.


This is the type of post I would expect to see in the goal.com comments section, not on GL Laughing

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Post by Lord Awesome on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:30 pm

@Donuts wrote:

ronaldo shined with portugal?
ronaldo had a better year then messi but lets not get carried away lol
also lets not turn this thread into a typical ronaldo vs messi thread.


I'm talking their entire careers. lol

Ronaldo had only one better year than Messi? hmm

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Post by Lord Awesome on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:31 pm

@Casciavit wrote:
This is the type of post I would expect to see in the goal.com comments section, not on GL Laughing


I was a member of Goal forums. lololol

Dat Goal.com influence. :coffee:

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Post by rwo power on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:36 pm

People, this thread is about the STATS (please refer to the thread title for the appropriate content), so please keep with the stats. Discussion about tap-ins and whatever can go elsewhere, please!!!

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:53 pm

@Harmonica wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Sorry but I don't read walls of text, either provide the point with a sentence, or we leave it there.


I even put spaces in between the sentences to enhance your reading comfort Sad

But ok, the point in one sentence.
You're cheating, possibly even unconsciously.
Not a rational argument.


It is actually very rational, and the reasoning behind it you can find in the 'wall of text' above Laughing

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:54 pm

@rwo power wrote:People, this thread is about the STATS (please refer to the thread title for the appropriate content), so please keep with the stats. Discussion about tap-ins and whatever can go elsewhere, please!!!


part of the discussion about stats, really hmm
Or is this thread only for numbers without discussing their context?

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Post by rwo power on Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:22 pm

Well, if you keep discussing the stats and not derailing the thread then fine, but here's a lot of derailing going on.

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