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Post by iftikhar on Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:03 am

I have a feeling that Klopp would want the following team as his starting XI

Mignolet
Clyne-Lovren-Sakho-Moreno
Henderson-Emre
Mane-Firmino-Coutinho
Sturridge

That would leave the following as back-up/rotation:

Karius
Flanagan-Matip-Joe-Smith
Milner-Grujic
Markovic-Lallana-Origi
Ings

Few things stand out

1. The starting XI midfield is too workman like and devoid of any play-making

2. Tucking Coutinho on the wings is under-utilizing him

3. We don't even have an eligible back-up for LB/LWB

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Post by donttreadonred on Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:36 pm

I've seen a fair amount of debate as to what our go-to setup is going to be this season. A lot are pointing to the first few games of pre-season and deducing that we'll use a 4-3-3 (closer to a 4-3-2-1, with the two wide forwards tucking inside often). However, I'm not so sure. I think it has more to do with the players available at this point in the pre-season schedule and the roles we're looking to develop.

Once everyone returns, I think we could see a bit of a hybrid variation between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3. I've actually seen it called a lopsided 4-2-3-1 before. The key features of this setup would be a disparity in the roles of the two deep CMs and the two wide-AMs. In midfield, one player would be freed to act more as a B2B player. The other would sit deeper to shield the CBs, cover for the FBs (who would provide the majority of the width), and in some cases dictate the tempo of play. In Attack, one wide AM will push forward in more of a wide-forward role, where the other would periodically drop deep to receive the ball. The AM that drops deep will act more as a creative CM (or Spanish #8... think Iniesta), effectively creating a midfield three at times.

Given Mane's strengths and developing rapport with Moreno, I think he may actually be deployed high on the left, pushing Coutinho to the right. In any case, Coutinho will almost certainly be allowed more freedom to drop deep in possession in order to get him on the ball with options ahead of him. The prospect of Coutinho adding creativity to the midfield with weapons like Firmino, Sturridge, and Mane in front of him is a mouth-watering prospect.

The midfield pairing is (and has been for a while now) the bigger question. Can is perfectly capable of playing either role. However, I think he's best used as the engine, B2B CM, supporting the attacks and influencing the play higher up the field. Unfortunately, we don't currently have someone that can perform the other role at the level we will require. My personal preference would be for one of Goretzka or Geis from Schalke. Goretzka would be the more physically gifted option, whereas Geis could offer a bit more in distribution and tempo control. Ruben Neves (another name we've been linked with) could be a wonderful option, as he's a midfielder in the same vein as Geis, but with less top-level experience and far more potential. Even a squad-level addition could benefit us. I'd personally take a cut-price deal for Idrissa Gueye, as I believe him to be an underrated DM.

In any case, we are at least one player away from making this system truly work. With us seemingly missing out or re-assessing our options on several targets, I'm hopeful we may yet get a player that can fill out our starting XI. However, it may be that Klopp's retooling of the squad has to wait another window. We shall see.

-----------------Sturridge
-------Mane-----Firmino
----------------------------Coutinho
-------------Can
-----------------------New DM
Moreno-------------------------Clyne
-------------Sakho---Matip
------------------Karius

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Post by iftikhar on Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:06 am

@donttreadonred wrote:The midfield pairing is (and has been for a while now) the bigger question. Can is perfectly capable of playing either role. However, I think he's best used as the engine, B2B CM, supporting the attacks and influencing the play higher up the field. Unfortunately, we don't currently have someone that can perform the other role at the level we will require.

Lucas seems to be, in my opinion at least, the only player who can perform the DM role. However, his passing hence the ability to dictate the tempo is pretty limited. Emre is still developing and shown both promise and limitation in both shielding the back-line and dictating the tempo.
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Post by donttreadonred on Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:19 am

@iftikhar wrote:Lucas seems to be, in my opinion at least, the only player who can perform the DM role. However, his passing hence the ability to dictate the tempo is pretty limited. Emre is still developing and shown both promise and limitation in both shielding the back-line and dictating the tempo.

It's Emre's maturation over the course of Klopp's short tenure that has me most impressed. He went from being a physical monster to a player capable of reading a game and controlling tempo. He's not the final article, yet. There are still games where he seems out of his depth. Now, this could be attributed to his partners (Milner, Lucas and Henderson) failing to carry their responsibilities. All too often, he seemed to be attempting to do everything: shield the backline, dictate tempo, unlock defenses, carry the ball in to the final third, etc.

I'm of the opinion that Emre doesn't need a specific type of partner; he needs a partner with a specific type. In other words, he could partner a true DM, acting as the more mobile, forward-thinking CM. He could also partner a more attack-minded CM, acting as the deeper controller, a combination of Masch and Xabi rolled into one. It matters less which type is brought in, as long as they come in and perform their specific role, thereby allowing Can to focus on his. I'm becoming more and more convinced that this specific dynamic is what we will see for most of next season. With Wijnaldum coming in for a considerable fee, I expect him to start. With Mane, Firmino, and Coutinho likely to start in the 3 behind the striker, the most likely spot for Gini is as a midfield partner for Can.

As for Lucas, you're right that he's the only established, Senior, and specialist DM at the club. However, that doesn't mean he's capable of performing the role regularly at a PL level. He's not looked capable of that for several seasons. Can he perform the role? I suppose so. However, that's a different question from, "can he perform the role at the level required?" At this point, I'd rather trust Emre to perform the role (with the added bonus of his other attributes) and pair him with another, more attacking CM tasked with linking play higher up the pitch and pressing the opposition midfield.

In my opinion, Stewart has looked more composed in the DM role than Lucas. I'd be more inclined to give him the spot-start should we need a devoted DM. Mind you, while I like Stewart, I'm in no way of the opinion that he is a long-term solution at the DM position. At best, he's capable of the occasional start should we need an added element of steel in midfield.

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Post by iftikhar on Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:30 am

Great post DTR, as usual Thumbs up

DTR wrote:I'm becoming more and more convinced that this specific dynamic is what we will see for most of next season. With Wijnaldum coming in for a considerable fee, I expect him to start. With Mane, Firmino, and Coutinho likely to start in the 3 behind the striker, the most likely spot for Gini is as a midfield partner for Can.
Well, I have been thinking that since the signing of GW. Firmino, Coutinho, Mane, GW and a Striker will start and that can only be accommodated in a 433 or 4411.
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Post by donttreadonred on Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:40 am

@iftikhar wrote:Great post DTR, as usual Thumbs up

DTR wrote:I'm becoming more and more convinced that this specific dynamic is what we will see for most of next season. With Wijnaldum coming in for a considerable fee, I expect him to start. With Mane, Firmino, and Coutinho likely to start in the 3 behind the striker, the most likely spot for Gini is as a midfield partner for Can.
Well, I have been thinking that since the signing of GW. Firmino, Coutinho, Mane, GW and a Striker will start and that can only be accommodated in a 433 or 4411.

Thanks pal! Thumbs up

I actually think we could be looking to pair him with Emre in a 4231. Granted, I'm not particularly confident in this approach. Though, I have heard/seen some positive analysis of Gini (specifically in the Eredivisie and with the Dutch NT) playing far more as a CM than as an AM/winger. We certainly didn't see this much for Newcastle. Then again, he was obviously their best player (please don't even bother mentioning Sissoko here), and you play your best player where they can be most influential in terms of output.

As I mentioned above, this might even work for both players. They could both benefit from having distinct roles: Can obviously dropping deeper and being asked to dictate tempo, Wijnaldum being asked to carry the ball out of midfield and link play higher up the field. While there are certainly concerns surrounding the defensive solidity of that lineup, the prospect of a front 5 of Sturridge, Couintho, Firmino, Mane, Can, and Wijnaldum is frankly mouth-watering. Maybe we'll go hell-for-leather (ala '13-14) and just leave Sakho, Matip, and Clyne back to stop as many goals as possible, with the expectation that we can simply score more in 90 mins than the other side.

As you mentioned, the other option is more of a 433, with either Stewart behind Can and Gini or Can behind Gini and Henderson. While this would get the best of our midfielders (especially Wijnaldum and Henderson), I have a hard time leaving out one of our preferred front 4. Essentially, a 433 means choosing one of Firmino, Sturridge, and Origi. While I can see this as an approach against certain teams, I wouldn't expect us to use it in the majority of matches.

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Post by Nishankly on Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:19 am

Who do we expect to start next season?

Sturridge or Origi or both?
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Post by donttreadonred on Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:44 am

@Nishankly wrote:Who do we expect to start next season?

Sturridge or Origi or both?

You forgot "or neither"...

:coffee:

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Post by Unique on Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:56 am

@Nishankly wrote:Who do we expect to start next season?

Sturridge or Origi or both?
I think klopp likes origi most out of all our strikers. but I would start with deadly Thumbs up

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Post by Nishankly on Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:00 am

@donttreadonred wrote:
@Nishankly wrote:Who do we expect to start next season?

Sturridge or Origi or both?

You forgot "or neither"...

:coffee:


I didn't expect a majority to want Ings or Firmino upfront :coffee:
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Post by donttreadonred on Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:28 am

Firmino may not be our "first-choice striker", but I do think he will start there periodically, especially in the 433 setup we've seen in pre-season. I think you could make the argument that the 433 makes more sense against Arsenal on the opening day, where I'd advocate Firmino as the False9.

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Post by Curtinho on Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:54 pm

So far there are two variants of the team that I like. The first, and best choice IMO, is the 4-3-3 and this is how I'd like to see it lined up.

Mignolet*
Clyne - Klavan** - Lovren - Milner
Can
Henderson - Wijnaldum
Mané - Firmino - Coutinho

*replaced by Karius when healthy
**replaced by Matip when healthy

The other is the 4-2-3-1 which is a bit trickier. It's probably in its best form like this (back 4 and keeper stay the same):

Can - Wijnaldum
Mané - Firmino - Coutinho
Sturridge

With all of them we need to find a decent amount of game time for guys like Sturridge, Henderson, Lallana, Grujic, Sakho, Origi, Ings and Ojo (IMO). I prefer the 4-3-3 as it is the only real way to stabilize our midfield against opponents who also have a strong midfield. The 4-2-3-1 would be best utilized, in my opinion, in matches where the midfield battle will not be as intense or difficult. Either way Can has to learn to be more disciplined and not bomb forward as much as he is used to doing -- he needs to really come into that holding role and play as more of a supportive defensive midfielder. Wijnaldum is great to have on the pivot or as an attack minded CM in a midfield 3 because of his ability in tight spaces and under pressure (so far he looks our only CM who can receive a ball in tight or under pressure and still come away with a decent pass or turn and move with the ball).

Looking forward to the Barca game!

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Post by Nishankly on Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:43 am

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpFUEBcWIAA5XK8.jpg

This looks soooo nice, But 70% of these guys are'nt good enough or consistent enough.
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Post by Curtinho on Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:23 am

I think it's a bit weird. Right now it's more like

GK: Karius/Mignolet/Manninger
RB: Clyne/Randall
RCB: Matip/Klavan
LCB: Lovren/Sakho
LB: Milner/Moreno
RCM: Can/Grujic
LCM: Wijnaldum/Henderson
RW: Mané/Ojo
CAM: Firmino/Lallana
LW: Coutinho/Origi?
ST: Sturridge/Ings

I actually really like the team, though I think that a 4-3-3 works best where maybe Coutinho or Lallana can drop into midfield or Henderson/Milner can start there.

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Post by Nishankly on Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:44 pm

If people like Benteke, Allen and Ibe are being shipped out of the squad, I don't see how Klopp can be content with Moreno. I refuse to believe it.

I expect an LB for sure, Will go into depression if we don't get one.
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Post by Unique on Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:54 pm

@Nishankly wrote:If people like Benteke, Allen and Ibe are being shipped out of the squad, I don't see how Klopp can be content with Moreno. I refuse to believe it.

I expect an LB for sure, Will go into depression if we don't get one.
tbh the guy is so bad its a joke. I know sometime you see a player that makes a few mistakes but this guy is made of them. I cant beleave klopp has sold every LB at the club apart from Moreno. he will cost us so many points over the season. I know people will say I go over the top when I talk about how bad Moreno is but trust me I don't. this guy makes mistakes you would not see in amuture football. god I hate this player Evil or Very Mad

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Post by Curtinho on Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:11 am

I don't hate him but man I would not even have him on my co-ed rec team. That's how bad he is.

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Post by iftikhar on Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:01 am

It appears Milner will be LB in the next game. I also expect Emre to start, that would mean Gini dropping to bench.
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Post by Curtinho on Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:10 pm

@iftikhar wrote:It appears Milner will be LB in the next game. I also expect Emre to start, that would mean Gini dropping to bench.


I don't think so. Klopp seems to really like Wijnaldum. I would imagine if Can starts then one of Henderson/Lallana hits the bench.

Can
Lallana - Wijnaldum

That's the midfield 3 we should be playing with Can instructed to be more disciplined and stay back as solid defensive presence. Just IMO. I'm sure there will be plenty of rotation but that's my favoured 3 in the middle right now.

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Post by Don't call me James on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:04 pm

Curt is right. Can is for sure a starter in the DM. The reason he didn't start last game was because of match fitness, behind slightly behind the rest of the lads.

Gini is also for sure a starter. He provides superior penetration from midfield to Hendo and is better on the ball.

Hendo and Lallana are competing for that 3rd spot and I for one am completely in the Lallana bandwagon atm. That role suits him perfectly. More so than being an AM or a winger imo.

So Hendo gets the cut and he's backing both Lallana and Gini should either of them be unavailable.

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Post by Unique on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:10 pm

@Don't call me James wrote:Curt is right. Can is for sure a starter in the DM. The reason he didn't start last game was because of match fitness, behind slightly behind the rest of the lads.

Gini is also for sure a starter. He provides superior penetration from midfield to Hendo and is better on the ball.

Hendo and Lallana are competing for that 3rd spot and I for one am completely in the Lallana bandwagon atm. That role suits him perfectly. More so than being an AM or a winger imo.

So Hendo gets the cut and he's backing both Lallana and Gini should either of them be unavailable.
so the el capitan gets dropped. cant see klopp sticking with Henderson as captain and then benching him.

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Post by Don't call me James on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:26 pm


lol if you think Klopp will play players based on if they are captain or not, he doesn't give a shit who is captain.

Hendo was already appointed captain before he came. There was no real need to change it as he was one of the long term members of the squad and a good professional even if not the most ideal captain.

Can > Hendo at DM so he won't play there.
Gini and Lallana are his competition and unless they are injured or off form it looks like at the moment those 3 will play over him.


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Post by Unique on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:32 pm

@Don't call me James wrote:
lol if you think Klopp will play players based on if they are captain or not, he doesn't give a shit who is captain.

Hendo was already appointed captain before he came. There was no real need to change it as he was one of the long term members of the squad and a good professional even if not the most ideal captain.

Can > Hendo at DM so he won't play there.
Gini and Lallana are his competition and unless they are injured or off form it looks like at the moment those 3 will play over him.

I bet you right now Henderson starts the next game. Wink

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Post by Unique on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:38 pm

.........can....hendo.
mane...firmino..coutinho
...........deadly....

that's what I would pick tbh.

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Post by Helmer on Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:29 am

If Hendo can be little better on the ball and have more technical abilities, Can and Henderson would have been so perfect for Klopps midfield. The problem with Can and Henderson midfield is, it will not have a partnership who can dictate the games for 90 minutes.

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Post by Red Alert on Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:24 am

Give Mario a chance. Sad

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