Balance and width Problems

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Post by Babun on Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:32 pm

babun1024 wrote:
@Adit wrote:Not really convincing,ozil could come alot deeper and dictate the tempo we play,something i have seen kaka doing when he is asked.I Have no problem with ozil playing his SS role but is it necessary to play that even when we are leading by goals?. He still has a long way to go in before we can call him a game dictating midfielder.

He rarely helps the midfield,which is a big concern for me.
Kaka? Very Happy
Ok, some basics of 4-3-3. The midfielders do almost everything, the front three are more like well rounded strikers than wingers+CF. The problem, for 4-3-3 to be effective you need gaps between the defenders. They don't magically appear out of no where, you have to stretch that defence. To stretch the defence you need at least one wide midfielder or someone who goes wide and overlaping fullbacks. If there're no gaps=no overlaping fullbacks= no space for through balls or whatever. The team will have xx % possession but wont score goals unless by some individual magic moment.
Your Kaka can't turn with the ball at his feet towards the opposition. He back passes quite often. Second, we were leading when he came on against tired defenders. Start him against a half decent parked bus, we'll have all the control in the world but no goals scored. Farca games are perfect examples.
Ozil solves the width problems when he goes wide himself and all other issues by himself. In current system, playing him deeper makes only in one condition, we lead by 2+ goals and want the opponent keep from scoring (keep away game). If you dop him into a 4-3-3 without additional width, we won't score goals, simple as that. Mou would have done this, he isn't stupid
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You're asking to drive a car without tires just because it has a BMW motor eco smile
I'm quoting myself for you Adit Very Happy If you don't overlap you need Ozil so far upfront to establish a link for goal scoring. We had total control when Khedira was on but no real goal scoring opportunities Very Happy

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Post by alexander mahone on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:01 pm

Didn't Ozil already kind of forced to play rather deep in Getafe & Dinamo matches because of less of space in final third due to Coentrao & Marcelo? Which explained the lower number of final passes he created for that 2 matches compare to the usual. And I think our front looked better with him played higher and he also looked better that way.

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Post by hrealmadrid on Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:21 pm

@Adit wrote:Actually if you watch carefully you will understand why our team lacked control over the game.Coentrao leaving xabi is the problem in midfield ,what can xabi do alone? he aint xavi to leave his marker.He needs space to play make,that space should be provided by his partner,instead coentrao is far out wide playing like a AM. Marcelo's excessive forward runs makes our defense looks bad that it actually is.

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Yeah I didn't understand a word of that
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Post by Babun on Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:52 am

I saw the last match again. It may sound contradictorily but Mou seems to have solved the width problem.Arbeloa and Marcelo overlapped and ran to the byline, the problem this time was that Ozil had to pick up the ball deep in midfield whereas he was needed in the created space (the middle). It was Lass' fault. CR7 is either injured or not in form so his movements weren't exceptional, however, Benz was tempted to leave his CF role and pick up the ball deeper same as Ozil. It was the wrong choice in this game Very Happy We would've worse build up in midfield but there'd be a slight chance to score if he remained at CF. I can't fault him a lot, one word Lass... Very Happy
The other problem, due to Ozil being deeper and CR7+ Benz(RMF, CAM) in wide areas, we played through the wings most of the time. It could be solved with Khedira or Sahin. When we create width, players should pass through the middle. With Khedira back, Ozil should do his job at AM.
People also keep saying Ozil was a flope. He was one of the best players in the last game, he helped to keep possession and get the flow going until the final third, there, we lacked one man so no end product emerged.
I'm very worried with Alonso, he seems to be burnt out. Playing single pivot too often may cause him injuries. He is already fatigued. Lass is so useless I don't know where to start Very Happy


Last edited by babun1024 on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:58 am

Mou was critical of ozil in the presser though... Only player he called out.

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Post by Babun on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:04 am

@sportsczy wrote:Mou was critical of ozil in the presser though... Only player he called out.
What I saw on the field differs from what Mou said. When he was up there in CAM area, Benz and CR7 were wide most of the time, where to pass then? Very Happy Of course the two CBs didn't have to cover and pressed him in midfield alons with a CM and a DM Very Happy
As the proof, we started Kaka last game= same result Very Happy



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Post by Guest on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:08 am

not his fault because he's not used to it... but his movements for a CM were not good. You're supposed to always move to create a passing lane for other people to get you the ball in the midfield. You need to control and create flow as a CM and he didn't do it very well. I thought his game was meh in comparison to what a CM should do. Of course, since everyone else in the mid was awful, he would look ok compared to that.

Again, not really his thing. But it's something he does need to work on if he wants to be a complete midfielder.

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Post by Babun on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:11 am

Mou about the team and Özil:
Von Krise kann keine Rede sein. So jedenfalls erklärte José Mourinho die Situation bei Real Madrid vor dem Spiel gegen Rayo Vallecano am Samstag.

Zu seinem Spielmacher Mesut Özil sagte Mou: "Das Team hat auch ein wenig Zauber verloren, nicht nur er. Er war immer ein toller Spieler, das haben alle gesagt."

Und: "Es soll niemand auf die Idee kommen, eine alberne Umfrage zu starten, ob Özil gut genug sei für Real Madrid. In ein paar Wochen wird er wieder sehr gut spielen."
Source
I'll translate the quotes Very Happy

We're far from a crisis, stated Mourinho before the game Real Madrid against Rayo Vallecano.

About his playmaker Ozil: " the team lost some of its magic, not only him alone. He has always been a great player, all people know that."

And: " No one should not get the silly idea to start a survey whether Ozil is good enough for Real Madrid ( refering to marca). In a week or two he'll be his supreme self again."


I don't see a lot of negativity there. He was asked about Ozil so he had to answer. Where did he critisize him? Show me your quote ...
eco smile


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Post by Babun on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:14 am

@sportsczy wrote:not his fault because he's not used to it... but his movements for a CM were not good. You're supposed to always move to create a passing lane for other people to get you the ball in the midfield. You need to control and create flow as a CM and he didn't do it very well. I thought his game was meh in comparison to what a CM should do. Of course, since everyone else in the mid was awful, he would look ok compared to that.

Again, not really his thing. But it's something he does need to work on if he wants to be a complete midfielder.
I said it somewhere else already. You don't become a CM over night Very Happy You can't expect him to turn into this role immediatly Very Happy benz is no poacher either, he may learn it with time though Very Happy

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Post by Guest on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:19 am

www.realmadrid.com

"Ozil won't mind me saying he wasn't in top form in Santander and Zagreb. I spoke to him about it. It's a reality and he will improve unless a survey says he doesn't have sufficient quality to play for Real Madrid. It isn't right to judge quality people who have a solid career and prestige for an isolated moment."

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Post by huntsman on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:22 am

These are the times when you need to play a destroyer type of player like lassana and rest some supermodels until the team regains its form.
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Post by Babun on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:23 am

@sportsczy wrote:www.realmadrid.com

"Ozil won't mind me saying he wasn't in top form in Santander and Zagreb. I spoke to him about it. It's a reality and he will improve unless a survey says he doesn't have sufficient quality to play for Real Madrid. It isn't right to judge quality people who have a solid career and prestige for an isolated moment."
That was true but in the last game he played better, a lot better Very Happy I analyzed the last game and explained why he didn't have an impact in final third despite playing well Very Happy You sidetracked the thread Very Happy

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Post by Guest on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:27 am

@sportsczy wrote:www.realmadrid.com

"Ozil won't mind me saying he wasn't in top form in Santander and Zagreb. I spoke to him about it. It's a reality and he will improve unless a survey says he doesn't have sufficient quality to play for Real Madrid. It isn't right to judge quality people who have a solid career and prestige for an isolated moment."

Btw, i disagree with Mou a bit. Ozil is a AM who is one of the absolute best in the world if he can operate in the final 1/3 with his forwards... creates havoc everywhere. But for him to be able to do that, the 2 mids behind him to be very good. Alonso is fine for the most part. Lass/Coentrao are not good enough to allow him to play that high. Di Maria being in awful form makes it even a bigger issue.

So there's 3 choices: 1) Either Sahin or Khedira get healthy and beast, 2) Ozil evolves his CM game or 3) we remove Di Maria and add a 3rd midfielder.

Personally, it think we need to add an extra mid until either 1) or 2) happen. If we stubbornly stay with our base tactics, we make it easy for the defense. All they have to do is pressure our mid and force Ozil low... it destabilizes everything and makes other players move out of where they should be too.

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Post by Guest on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:32 am

In regards to width, Arbeloa did his job very well and Marcelo was better... problem was the CR7 was in bad form and Benz was playing low because we couldn't get the ball through the mid. As a result, there were too few bodies in the box. Our passing was atrocious too.

But the fullbacks should continue doing it. The midfield issue is not their problem, They need to continue doing their job.

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Post by Adit on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:33 am

babun1024 wrote:I saw the last match again. It may sound contradictorily but Mou seems to have solved the width problem.Arbeloa and Marcelo overlapped and ran to the byline, the problem this time was that Ozil had to pick up the ball deep in midfield whereas he was needed in the created space (the middle). It was Lass' fault. CR7 is either injured or not in form so his movements weren't exceptional, however, Benz was tempted to leave his CF role and pick up the ball deeper same as Ozil. It was the wrong choice in this game Very Happy We would've worse build up in midfield but there'd be a slight chance to score if he remained at CF. I can't fault him a lot, one word Lass... Very Happy
The other problem, due to Ozil being deeper and CR7+ Benz(RMF, CAM) in wide areas, we played through the wings most of the time. It could be solved with Khedira or Sahin. When we create width, players should pass through the middle. With Khedira back, Ozil should do his job at AM.
People also keep saying Ozil was a flope. He was one of the best players in the last game, he helped to keep possession and get the flow going until the final third, there, we lacked one man so no end product emerged.
I'm very worried with Alonso, he seems to be burnt out. Playing single pivot too often may cause him injuries. He is already fatigued. Lass is so useless I don't know where to start Very Happy
At last some one agrees with me,benzes false 9 really hurt us bad tactically in last games.We literally had none in the box to score.

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Post by Guest on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:36 am

@Adit wrote:
babun1024 wrote:I saw the last match again. It may sound contradictorily but Mou seems to have solved the width problem.Arbeloa and Marcelo overlapped and ran to the byline, the problem this time was that Ozil had to pick up the ball deep in midfield whereas he was needed in the created space (the middle). It was Lass' fault. CR7 is either injured or not in form so his movements weren't exceptional, however, Benz was tempted to leave his CF role and pick up the ball deeper same as Ozil. It was the wrong choice in this game Very Happy We would've worse build up in midfield but there'd be a slight chance to score if he remained at CF. I can't fault him a lot, one word Lass... Very Happy
The other problem, due to Ozil being deeper and CR7+ Benz(RMF, CAM) in wide areas, we played through the wings most of the time. It could be solved with Khedira or Sahin. When we create width, players should pass through the middle. With Khedira back, Ozil should do his job at AM.
People also keep saying Ozil was a flope. He was one of the best players in the last game, he helped to keep possession and get the flow going until the final third, there, we lacked one man so no end product emerged.
I'm very worried with Alonso, he seems to be burnt out. Playing single pivot too often may cause him injuries. He is already fatigued. Lass is so useless I don't know where to start Very Happy
At last some one agrees with me,benzes false 9 really hurt us bad tactically in last games.We literally had none in the box to score.

He doesn't agree with you adit. read the next line. because of lass, he had to come low. what's the point of hanging out in the box when there was zero chance to get the ball unless the midfield was somewhat stabilized. Bigger problem was that CR7 and Di Maria were not attacking the box to compensate for Benz having to play low.... they just decided to hang around the wings instead of adapting.

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Post by Adit on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:38 am

"We would've worse build up in midfield but there'd be a slight chance to score if he remained at CF"


Quoted for truth Very Happy

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Post by Guest on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:41 am

"We would've worse build up in midfield but there'd be a slight chance to score if he remained at CF. I can't fault him a lot, one word Lass..."

Just to not quote Babun out of context.

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Post by Adit on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:45 am

@sportsczy wrote:

He doesn't agree with you adit. read the next line. because of lass, he had to come low. what's the point of hanging out in the box when there was zero chance to get the ball unless the midfield was somewhat stabilized. Bigger problem was that CR7 and Di Maria were not attacking the box to compensate for Benz having to play low.... they just decided to hang around the wings instead of adapting.
But when you look at things,it isnt CRs or Di maria's fault too.Its lack of understanding between all of them,including benz.

You dont come deep to get the ball when your wingers are out wide and not making runs into box unless you are messi who can run at CBs at full pace and score himself.-benz's fault

You dont go out wide when your striker is playing a false 9 role and let team have none in the box-CRs and di maria's fault.


so its mutual problem,and its down to mou to fix it in tactics.

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Post by Guest on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:49 am

yeah... it's recognition issues on the pitch. We all know that Di Maria is not a Rhodes Scholar, so you can pretty much bet he's not smart enough to adapt. CR7 is also more concerned about getting himself in his favorite scoring positions as opposed to adapting for the team... so there's that too.

It makes no sense to hang out around the box when the ball isn't even getting close to being played in your area, which is what happened in the first 20 mins. Ozil adapted; Benz did too. Marcelo and Arbeloa were doing their jobs. But Di Maria (Callejon too) and CR7 stayed stagnant and the chain remained broken.

People need to get on the same page.

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Post by Adit on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:53 am

I cant fault di maria and ronaldo going out wide in last matches,the midfield couldnt keep the ball for 5 seconds and they relayed on our wingers and wing backs to keep possession.Its down to xabi being awfully bad at possession and link up play and his partners khedira or lass arent any better at it.

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Post by Pedram on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:56 am

CR7 shouldn't have been on the wing when Benzema was there. one should always take the goal scoring responsibility. if Di Maria don't do what he's supposed to do then it should not be Benzema who does his job.
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Post by Guest on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:56 am

@Adit wrote:I cant fault di maria and ronaldo going out wide in last matches,the midfield couldnt keep the ball for 5 seconds and they relayed on our wingers and wing backs to keep possession.Its down to xabi being awfully bad at possession and link up play and his partners khedira or lass arent any better at it.

It's just that they were very bad at linkup and passing from their wings. There was no relay... the ball went to the wing and resulted in a bad pass or a direct turnover almost every time. If you can't help with the flow from your wing and the CF is forced to come up and help, your job then is to crash the box. Bad recognition. Absolutely their fault.

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Post by Guest on Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:01 pm

That's how we got our goal against Zagreb btw Adit. We were having problems and Benz went wide to help the buildup. He beat his man and brought a second defender to him. He got the ball to Ozil who had Di Maria playing the striker role next to him since Benz had gone wide... only one defender left to cover both Ozil and Di Maria to his right. Ozil slid the ball to Di Maria in the box who beat the GK 1-on-1.

That was recognition.

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Post by Adit on Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:08 pm

We are very vertical team under mourinho.Our fast paced athletic individual game can be stopped if we are fatigued,injured or we are forced to play back ups in a game.With a better anticipation and better defending RM can be easily stopped but the anticipation and organization required to stop RM players at full form is nasty,this is the fundamental of our team.

I think our squad can be a lot more creative than it actually is at present which is a one dimensional vertical team.I dont think this "crisis" will end if we replaced CR with Hazard and di maria with neymar.Its down to tactics,and its upto mou to fix our totally one dimensional play.

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Post by Onyx on Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:34 pm

So basically our wingers aren't providing as much as they should.
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