We just don't have the midfield horses

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We just don't have the midfield horses Empty We just don't have the midfield horses

Post by Guest on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:04 am

Xabi, Lass and Granero.... those were the only 3 true midfielders on the team last night. That would be ok if you had CBs that could help the midfield with their passing ability. But Varane and Carvalho are not the types to help the midfield with their passing as one was just making his first start while the other is too old and limited. Pepe is not good at that role either as he is was too imprecise and predictable with his passing.

These are the real causes of our problem: We have CBs that are not used to participating with the build up (Varane could get there with time) and we have a deficit in CM creativity. The result? The defense and the offense are completely cut from each other.

To compensate for the issues we're having forwards drift to the middle 1/3 as Ozil moves to CM, Benz to SS/AM and CR7 to CF. If you only look at it like this on the surface, it would seem ok... but it's actually very poor. We're organized vertically on the attack, as opposed to horizontally. In essence, there's very little width and we never have enough bodies in the box. Our possession improves because we have strengthened the midfield play. But we have completely sacrificed the attack as we only have 1 forward and 1 winger attacking the box against 4 defenders. You see benz drifting left and right or outside the box because he's out of position to help the buildup.

In short, we cannot afford both Khedira and Sahin to be off the pitch. it destabilizes our attack too much.

But i must admit i am astonished that Mou has not made adjustments tactically to handle the midfield deficit. The easiest one would be to play a 4-3-3 with Kaka or Granero as the additional CM and put Di Maria on the bench. It's more important to the team for Ozil to be able to play in the attack as opposed to Di Maria. Second, we finally saw Arbeloa as a RB. That's a no brainer to me. He's our best defensive RB and he creates width because he makes correct runs = spread the defense. Third, Varane started and now Ramos needs to play instead of Carvalho. Why? Ricardo is too slow at this point and a complete gamble next to Marcelo, who has played poorly defensively the last 3 games imo. We need guys that can help the midfield buildup and he is incapable of it.

My 2 cents.

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Post by Seppuku on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:17 am

It has to be said that Xabi also has been lackluster.
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Post by Guest on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:22 am

Yeah... Xabi is slowing too, which doesn't help. That was bound to happen though. He had waaaaay too much responsibility last year.

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Post by skali on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:37 am

1. Arbeloa is horrible offensively. That is one part of the reason we sucked so much vs Racing, he didn't go forward at all. Not once. Granted, Ramos is not much more useful, but at least he goes forward, puts one more body there for the opponent to defend against.

2. Granero is horrible. Lass is horrible. Kaka is horrible. Di Maria is about ten billion times more useful a player than Granero.

3. Patience. When Khedira, Coentrao and Sahin are all available we will gel into a strong midfield. Coentrao has been crucified lately but he has just started playing in midfield and will require some time to adapt.

And I've seen some very good play from Coentrao, in both the Dinamo and Levante games he got into good positions, made some nice runs - he missed 2 chances vs Dinamo and 1 vs Levante that he probably should have buried, but it happens. The fact that he got into the chances is a good thing.

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Post by H.A. on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:49 am

I really hate how Xabi has to take care of the midfield all by himself. He will always be criticized when its not really his fault.

I kind of see your point on having good ball handling CB's. I think Ramos can be one as his passing is good, problem is mou won't start him there. [Its always the case it seems].

I really hate how people justify Di Maria starting because of his work rate. It means nothing if we can't control the game. We really should opt to use a 3rd midfielder instead of Di Maria. Granero doesn't mind going into challenges so if only mou could start him. Kaka would also do.

One more thing to add, Ronaldo doesn't always need to be the focal point of our attack, we should use him as a decoy more often.

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Post by huntsman on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:49 am

Arbelao is fine. We can look for better in the market but we need the spanish players and he's not our biggest of problems.

Lass was great, and Kaka did well considering he played a few mins. He should have started this game instead of Di Maria.

we dont have the bad ass type of players in our team esp at the offense and thats one of the reasons we're suffering. Stopping CR7 and playing against him is one of the oppositions most sought wishes.

I told you guys, if we bought Aguero, Lukaku or even Neymar, things would ve been different with the preference to the first two.

We need a miracle if we were to win anything this season. Well not a miracle, but we need to be really really lucky and work hard. We'll see how things progress when Sahin comes end of november (that's like 8 games from now in La Liga? 24 points? )

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Post by huntsman on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:52 am

H.A. wrote:I really hate how Xabi has to take care of the midfield all by himself. He will always be criticized when its not really his fault.

I kind of see your point on having good ball handling CB's. I think Ramos can be one as his passing is good, problem is mou won't start him there. [Its always the case it seems].

I really hate how people justify Di Maria starting because of his work rate. It means nothing if we can't control the game. We really should opt to use a 3rd midfielder instead of Di Maria. Granero doesn't mind going into challenges so if only mou could start him. Kaka would also do.

One more thing to add, Ronaldo doesn't always need to be the focal point of our attack, we should use him as a decoy more often.

Xabi was never good to start with, at least to me. Lass is twice as good.

Di Maria is killing our game. He needs to be benched. Kaka would ve made assists and scored at least one goal this game.
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Post by H.A. on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:59 am

huntsman wrote:
H.A. wrote:I really hate how Xabi has to take care of the midfield all by himself. He will always be criticized when its not really his fault.

I kind of see your point on having good ball handling CB's. I think Ramos can be one as his passing is good, problem is mou won't start him there. [Its always the case it seems].

I really hate how people justify Di Maria starting because of his work rate. It means nothing if we can't control the game. We really should opt to use a 3rd midfielder instead of Di Maria. Granero doesn't mind going into challenges so if only mou could start him. Kaka would also do.

One more thing to add, Ronaldo doesn't always need to be the focal point of our attack, we should use him as a decoy more often.

Xabi was never good to start with, at least to me. Lass is twice as good.

Di Maria is killing our game. He needs to be benched. Kaka would ve made assists and scored at least one goal this game.

Was Lass the guy who wears the number 6 shirt? If yes then I agree he's great in the midfield Very Happy
We missed him this game!

I'm not too sure the guy your talking about is twice as good as xabi though, maybe I need to check my eyes scratch

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Post by huntsman on Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:02 pm

H.A. wrote:
huntsman wrote:
H.A. wrote:I really hate how Xabi has to take care of the midfield all by himself. He will always be criticized when its not really his fault.

I kind of see your point on having good ball handling CB's. I think Ramos can be one as his passing is good, problem is mou won't start him there. [Its always the case it seems].

I really hate how people justify Di Maria starting because of his work rate. It means nothing if we can't control the game. We really should opt to use a 3rd midfielder instead of Di Maria. Granero doesn't mind going into challenges so if only mou could start him. Kaka would also do.

One more thing to add, Ronaldo doesn't always need to be the focal point of our attack, we should use him as a decoy more often.

Xabi was never good to start with, at least to me. Lass is twice as good.

Di Maria is killing our game. He needs to be benched. Kaka would ve made assists and scored at least one goal this game.

Was Lass the guy who wears the number 6 shirt? If yes then I agree he's great in the midfield Very Happy
We missed him this game!

I'm not too sure the guy your talking about is twice as good as xabi though, maybe I need to check my eyes scratch

Lass has the potential which madrid isnt using. He bossed the defense and midfield yesterday despite him being out of form. He's not used to playing with his team mates.

If Mourinho knows how to give Lass and Kaka the confidence they seek after and the play time then you ll see a completely different madrid. Both have improved alot.

I am a mourinho fan, but just like a criticize madrid when they suck i have to criticize mou when he makes mistakes. Mourinho needs to step up his game.
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Post by H.A. on Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:12 pm

Kaka I would understand, but lass? Its beyond me how you want us to view him when he already has showed us what he can do. The guy is a destroyer, not a zidane so I'm not too sure how you think he has potential scratch

Anyway I'm really tired so good luck. My avatar describes many people's reaction to your posts, just putting it out there Very Happy

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Post by Onyx on Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:26 pm

Lass bossed the midfield? He could barely control the ball and sucked at CM.

In terms of the OP we have too much width. We rely on the wings too much and nothing happens centrally.

We just don't have a system and we don't know what possession is.
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Post by guest7 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:28 pm

Get Banega and play him with Khedira & Sahin and get ready for the worlds best midfield Very Happy
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Post by Rossoneri Ninja on Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:00 pm

sportsczy wrote:Xabi, Lass and Granero.... those were the only 3 true midfielders on the team last night. That would be ok if you had CBs that could help the midfield with their passing ability. But Varane and Carvalho are not the types to help the midfield with their passing as one was just making his first start while the other is too old and limited. Pepe is not good at that role either as he is was too imprecise and predictable with his passing.

These are the real causes of our problem: We have CBs that are not used to participating with the build up (Varane could get there with time) and we have a deficit in CM creativity. The result? The defense and the offense are completely cut from each other.

To compensate for the issues we're having forwards drift to the middle 1/3 as Ozil moves to CM, Benz to SS/AM and CR7 to CF. If you only look at it like this on the surface, it would seem ok... but it's actually very poor. We're organized vertically on the attack, as opposed to horizontally. In essence, there's very little width and we never have enough bodies in the box. Our possession improves because we have strengthened the midfield play. But we have completely sacrificed the attack as we only have 1 forward and 1 winger attacking the box against 4 defenders. You see benz drifting left and right or outside the box because he's out of position to help the buildup.

In short, we cannot afford both Khedira and Sahin to be off the pitch. it destabilizes our attack too much.

But i must admit i am astonished that Mou has not made adjustments tactically to handle the midfield deficit. The easiest one would be to play a 4-3-3 with Kaka or Granero as the additional CM and put Di Maria on the bench. It's more important to the team for Ozil to be able to play in the attack as opposed to Di Maria. Second, we finally saw Arbeloa as a RB. That's a no brainer to me. He's our best defensive RB and he creates width because he makes correct runs = spread the defense. Third, Varane started and now Ramos needs to play instead of Carvalho. Why? Ricardo is too slow at this point and a complete gamble next to Marcelo, who has played poorly defensively the last 3 games imo. We need guys that can help the midfield buildup and he is incapable of it.

My 2 cents.

Have you considered maybe narrowing your formation?

4-1-2-1-2 ( Diamond ) or 4-3-1-2 it would give you better midfield stability, but make your flanks vulnerable to Fb overlaps.

Positives*

* You'd be able to regulate/maintain possession easier. ( Could allow you to field Sahin, Xabi and a destroyer, thus making a more balanced midfield)
* No Di Maria on the wings Laughing
* Free up more space for Marcelo/attacking fb to run into down the flanks.
* You can play Kaka in his best postion which is SS/ or Benz, Ozil at Am and Cr7 at CF.( Don't know if many here would consider that a positve though)
* Carvalho/ Albiol would have better midfield cover infront of them.
* The team's play will be smoother.
* You need not buy new players to make the formation work as you already have all the necessary assets to employ it.


Negatives*
* Will stretch your midfield depth, and most likely you will see Lass / Granero in the line up on more than one occasion.
* The play won't be expansive, and could lead to games were you dominate possession wise but struggle to get the break through
* Fb's/flanks will be could potentially be exposed as there is no winger to occupy the opposition fb's.
* Cr7 not in his natural position, and thus could potentially hinder his abilities.
* More pressure on Ozil to create from the middle.

The 4-1-2-1-2/ 4-3-1-2 could help Real over come many structural deficiencies in the 4-2-3-1. The reason i don't really like the 4-2-3-1 that Real use is that your play generally seem random, and tries to utilize the individual characteristic of your attacking players. Which is why one doesn't see the same Madrid when Ozil , Cr7 or Benz is not the pitch, i understand that players style differs but the team should have its own style. For instance Man U play without Rooney or Vidic the system is still the same, whether it is as effective when they are their is a different matter.

I like Mou and i think the 4-2-3-1 is a tactical masterpiece , when you have the right players that possess the right mentality to play it to its potential. But for me, with the squad he has i feel the formation is like each players own island, each his own role and instruction, but how it all comes together is what bothers me, chemistry/balance takes years to perfect, and i don't really think the chemistry has reached it potential with Real yet.

Tbh guys you have world class players, and few injuries so far, your team just needs a little tinkering and it will start producing the goods. You're in a far better position than some other clubs especially one that don's A Certain red and black strip Rolling Eyes .

my 2 cents worth





P.S: sorry about the cossu> ozil troll a few weeks ago was bored, and needed amusement Embarassed


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Post by Onyx on Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:04 pm

The diamond/4-3-1-2 seems like a good idea.

Ronaldo is more of a poacher anyway nowdays, Di Maria would be benched and Sahin, Alonso and Khedira can all start.
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Post by guest7 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:08 pm

Ramos - Pepe - Varane - Marcelo
Xabi
Sahin -- Khedira
Ronaldo - Benzema

We actually discussed this once. Since 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-2-1 was Mou's most used lineups, we discussed if maybe that is how Sahin is gonna be used (4-3-2-1)
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Post by H.A. on Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:10 pm

Well with the 4-3-3 you can switch to any of those formations on the fly but the important thing is to actually start a 3rd midfielder, not a winger [ala di maria] in the midfield to achieve that effect. We need someone who can hold the ball under pressure and bring the ball forward, play-make so to say. I personally prefer Granero since he can remain deep if needed but kaka may also do the trick [though he should focus to remain at the center of the pitch rather than go forward].

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Post by Guest on Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:23 pm

Wtih Lass in the midfield and Ozil as the forward, the diamond is in fact the better formation based on squad... but the main point is to have 3 midfielders out there as opposed to 2.

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Post by hrealmadrid on Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:49 pm

We haven't even seen Sahin play yet, can't depend on him at the moment.
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Post by Pedram on Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:32 pm

omarish wrote:Get Banega and play him with Khedira & Sahin and get ready for the worlds best midfield Very Happy

Really last night i enjoyed watching how Valencia's midfielders bossed Barcelona's midfielders. they have Albelda as their true DM and Banega who can control the ball very well under pressure. at the other side our midfield consist of a DM who plays the rule of a limited CM (Xabi) and a CM who plays the rule of a DM (Khedira). that's because we're messed up at midfield.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:34 pm

Valencia has a completely different conception of football than us.

When they win the ball back, they can transition it forward with short passes, something we are unable to match.

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Post by halamadrid2 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:35 pm

you actually thought barca played to the best of their ability last night???

and for your fact banega always performs against barca anyways just like kun, but i can name lots of other players who i think is better than them

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:38 pm

It's not like it's the first time Valencia comes close to beating Barcelona either.

They have played just as well in the past, but they always blow chances.

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Post by halamadrid2 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:42 pm

well is that due to banega???

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Post by Pedram on Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:52 pm

Well if Soldado didn't miss that great chance they would've won the match 3-1 or 3-2. they have completely dominated Barcelona.
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Post by Adit on Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:40 pm

Lol Banega,i have watched all valencia games this and last year.He is as inconsistent as di maria though not that much.Over hyped player,the way he got benched for freaking GAGO for copa america was hillarious.Im pretty sure sahin is better than him and definitely has better sealing than him too.

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