barca midfield (Xaviesta+Busquets) vs. (Alonso+Gerrard+Kaka)

Im not judging xavi. Im laughing at the claim he is some kind of untouchable, players have proven in the past they are quite capabable of keeping the ball against him

misinterpreting someones comment to try to sound funny

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Im not judging xavi. Im laughing at the claim he is some kind of untouchable, players have proven in the past they are quite capabable of keeping the ball against him

misinterpreting someones comment to try to sound funny

Calling him a glorified Ray Wilkins is not trying to judge?

Yeah, players like Maradona have never been shut down. And Beckenbauer? Invincible

Romanticizing if i ever saw any.

On your formation, i think it would be damn close. Xavi and Iniesta are no scrubs, if you did not know that already. I think it would be an even contest if ever such a match up happened.

So i don't agree with your claim that they would keep the ball against Xaviesta and outpass them, but neither do i agree with Alex's claim.

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Its hilarious. Did you see the arsenal vs barcelona games where wilshere kept playing with xavi eveytime he challenged him? or the times senna used to nutmeg xavi for fun? yet legends like maradona, giresse, and beckebauer would apparently fail against this glorified ray wilkins....

That performance by Wilshere must be the most overrated performance ever!

Wilshere played good but by the way some are talking about that performance You would belive that Arsenal had like 70% possession while creating chance after chance after chance, when the reality is far away from that. Barca still the the most possession and created atleast just as many chance as Arsenal did. The reason why Arsenal won was not because of Wilshere, it was because the referee wrongly disallowed Messis goal and robbed Barca 2 penalties

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Its hilarious. Did you see the arsenal vs barcelona games where wilshere kept playing with xavi eveytime he challenged him? or the times senna used to nutmeg xavi for fun? yet legends like maradona, giresse, and beckebauer would apparently fail against this glorified ray wilkins....

Wilshire kept playing with Xavi!!!!!
Hilarious.Go watch the match again.As usual Barca dominated possession and chances.
And in the second game Wilshire was invisible and Arsenal were reduced to parking the bus.Xavi completely dominated.
You can put any player in the history of the game against Xavi.There is only one player who is going to win the possession game.And thats the Barcelona maestro.
And yet supposedly Maradona,the AM who barely averaged 30 passes per game would outpass Xavi.Go tell that to fellow deluded Maradona fanboys like yourself.They might believe that.
If Mardaona faced Xavi,he would be chasing shadows all game long.

kiranr wrote:

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Im not judging xavi. Im laughing at the claim he is some kind of untouchable, players have proven in the past they are quite capabable of keeping the ball against him

misinterpreting someones comment to try to sound funny

Calling him a glorified Ray Wilkins is not trying to judge?

Yeah, players like Maradona have never been shut down. And Beckenbauer? Invincible

Romanticizing if i ever saw any.

On your formation, i think it would be damn close. Xavi and Iniesta are no scrubs, if you did not know that already. I think it would be an even contest if ever such a match up happened.

So i don't agree with your claim that they would keep the ball against Xaviesta and outpass them, but neither do i agree with Alex's claim.

Dont be taken in by his claims.
Maradona was a no.10 who used to barely average 30 passes per game.He would be clueless in CM against Xavi,Iniesta and Busquets.
Giresse was a very good player but just not in the league of Xavi and Iniesta.
The name Beckenbauer might sound impressive.But again he was not a tiki taka master.He used to drive from the back and was very direct.
Dont let names fool you.
The midfield he has put down would be comfortably and utterly played off the park.His trio would lose the ball easily and the Barca trio would run circles round them.

On the original topic.

Park the bus.....wait for Barca to make a mistake, Get Gerrard the ball, get Kaka on the run, game over.

As for Wilshire's performace being overrated.....they parked he bus when Van Persie was sent off, if his team parks the bus he has no choice but to follow suit, but up until then he was on par with Xavi and Co.He may have been outpossessed but realistically, who isn't vs Barcelona.

Redondo-Zidane-Scholes will beat them but that is too much of a dream formation LOL

Le Samourai wrote:On the original topic.

Park the bus.....wait for Barca to make a mistake, Get Gerrard the ball, get Kaka on the run, game over.

As for Wilshire's performace being overrated.....they parked he bus when Van Persie was sent off, if his team parks the bus he has no choice but to follow suit, but up until then he was on par with Xavi and Co.He may have been outpossessed but realistically, who isn't vs Barcelona.

Arsenal didnt have a single shot even before Van Persie sending off.They parked the bus from the start.

alexjanosik wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:On the original topic.

Park the bus.....wait for Barca to make a mistake, Get Gerrard the ball, get Kaka on the run, game over.

As for Wilshire's performace being overrated.....they parked he bus when Van Persie was sent off, if his team parks the bus he has no choice but to follow suit, but up until then he was on par with Xavi and Co.He may have been outpossessed but realistically, who isn't vs Barcelona.

Arsenal didnt have a single shot even before Van Persie sending off.They parked the bus from the start.

Spain didn't have a single shot against Portugal over 120 mins , did they park the bus as well? Even if they did, how does that reflect anything on Wilshire....if his team Parks the bus he has to follow suit, what do you want him to do exactly?.

Le Samourai wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:On the original topic.

Park the bus.....wait for Barca to make a mistake, Get Gerrard the ball, get Kaka on the run, game over.

As for Wilshire's performace being overrated.....they parked he bus when Van Persie was sent off, if his team parks the bus he has no choice but to follow suit, but up until then he was on par with Xavi and Co.He may have been outpossessed but realistically, who isn't vs Barcelona.

Arsenal didnt have a single shot even before Van Persie sending off.They parked the bus from the start.

Spain didn't have a single shot against Portugal over 120 mins , did they park the bus as well?

It was different.Barca were camped in the Arsenal half and had all of the ball and the chances.Arsenal barely got the ball and didnt get out of their own half.
Portugal had a lot of the ball and in Spain's half.Spain had possession but most of it was in their own half.

Arsenal played on the counter but maintained a relatvive degree of control over how the game went before Van Persie went off, after he went off they basically PTB conceeded 2 and ran like headless chickens for the rest of the game.

Once again...Wilshire has no power over what his idiot teammates do, he can't play 1 v 11.

Arsenal parked the bus from the start in the Camp Nou Samuroi. Even before the Van Persie sending off. Watch the first half, Barcelona completely dominated proceedings and Arsenal were defending really well with most behind the ball in their own half until the goal in the end of the first half.

@ Alex. I have no doubt that Xavi and co would outpossess that midfield, but they are still very dangerous players. They would provide an even contest as they can move the ball up the field fairly quickly. That was my reason when i talked about even contest.

harhar11 wrote:

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Its hilarious. Did you see the arsenal vs barcelona games where wilshere kept playing with xavi eveytime he challenged him? or the times senna used to nutmeg xavi for fun? yet legends like maradona, giresse, and beckebauer would apparently fail against this glorified ray wilkins....

That performance by Wilshere must be the most overrated performance ever!

Wilshere played good but by the way some are talking about that performance You would belive that Arsenal had like 70% possession while creating chance after chance after chance, when the reality is far away from that. Barca still the the most possession and created atleast just as many chance as Arsenal did. The reason why Arsenal won was not because of Wilshere, it was because the referee wrongly disallowed Messis goal and robbed Barca 2 penalties

Overrated

He literally did create chance after chance, but no a possession stat at the end of the game means his performance was average.

kiranr wrote:Arsenal parked the bus from the start in the Camp Nou Samuroi. Even before the Van Persie sending off. Watch the first half, Barcelona completely dominated proceedings and Arsenal were defending really well with most behind the ball in their own half until the goal in the end of the first half.

@ Alex. I have no doubt that Xavi and co would outpossess that midfield, but they are still very dangerous players. They would provide an even contest as they can move the ball up the field fairly quickly. That was my reason when i talked about even contest.

The midfield he put up just doesnt have the workrate and defense to stop the Barca trio.Maradona was a 10 and he wasnt the hardest working player on the pitch.
Beckenbauer was not excatly a workhorse.He was sometimes accused of being lazy.So another player who doesnt have enough workrate.That leaves just Giresse.
That midfield doesnt have enough workrate(nowhere near as much as the Barca trio)and would simply just get overrun.

harhar11 wrote:[Wilshere played good but by the way some are talking about that performance You would belive that Arsenal had like 70% possession while creating chance after chance after chance, when the reality is far away from that. Barca still the the most possession and created atleast just as many chance as Arsenal did. The reason why Arsenal won was not because of Wilshere, it was because the referee wrongly disallowed Messis goal and robbed Barca 2 penalties

Sometimes arguments on this forum seem so futile. I have no idea why what % of the ball arsenal had has to do with anything, i was just pointing out that if wilshere could keep the ball against xavi ect (i dont give a bleep how much his teammates lost the ball and therefore how much % of the ball arsenal had) i dont know why anyone would think the team i mentioned would be "chasing xavi's shadow" as alex claimed. Looking at the last 4 years, outside of barcelona there have been hardly any great ball retaining midfielders they played against, only a few that were well past their prime, and a couple that are still very young. In all barcelonas success who have they played against that was GOAT at keeping the ball? bleeping arsenal used to be considered the next best passers after barcelona

alexjanosik wrote:

Wilshire kept playing with Xavi!!!!!
Hilarious.Go watch the match again.As usual Barca dominated possession and chances.
And in the second game Wilshire was invisible and Arsenal were reduced to parking the bus.Xavi completely dominated.

As i already wrote, how much possession arsenal had has bleep all to do with how wilshere kept the ball against barcelona, how is this difficult to understand? with the likes of djourou and song giving the ball away whenever barcelona pressed, it has nothing to do with wilshere


3:40 unlucky xavi, 3:59 byyyyyyeeeeeeeeee byyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeee xavi, 6:15 xavi: ahhh not this again

alexjanosik wrote:

Maradona was a no.10 who used to barely average 30 passes per game.He would be clueless in CM against Xavi,Iniesta and Busquets.
Giresse was a very good player but just not in the league of Xavi and Iniesta.
The name Beckenbauer might sound impressive.But again he was not a tiki taka master.He used to drive from the back and was very direct.
Dont let names fool you.
The midfield he has put down would be comfortably and utterly played off the park.His trio would lose the ball easily and the Barca trio would run circles round them.

Did you like watch one game of maradona and decide you know all about him? seems like it tbh. My word 30 passes a game? i dont know if you are actually joking. I guess not please, count the passes in these match highlights, i cant be bothered, its up to you to prove your claim







(this game as an example he had less involvement in build up and more focus on the final third)

i could continue and continue finding these videos, it seems there are quite a lot of them on youtube which is nice, even though i notice they havent actually included all his passes

Beckenbauer had excellent positioning, even better than busquets, was excellent on the ball as well. Maradona was more comfortable on the ball than anyone else i have seen, giresse was a fantastic player at controlling and passing the ball in tight areas. They would not be outpassed busquets, iniesta and xavi, they might be slightly more direct though

Edit: workrate? please.....

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:

harhar11 wrote:[Wilshere played good but by the way some are talking about that performance You would belive that Arsenal had like 70% possession while creating chance after chance after chance, when the reality is far away from that. Barca still the the most possession and created atleast just as many chance as Arsenal did. The reason why Arsenal won was not because of Wilshere, it was because the referee wrongly disallowed Messis goal and robbed Barca 2 penalties

Sometimes arguments on this forum seem so futile. I have no idea why what % of the ball arsenal had has to do with anything, i was just pointing out that if wilshere could keep the ball against xavi ect (i dont give a bleep how much his teammates lost the ball and therefore how much % of the ball arsenal had) i dont know why anyone would think the team i mentioned would be "chasing xavi's shadow" as alex claimed. Looking at the last 4 years, outside of barcelona there have been hardly any great ball retaining midfielders they played against, only a few that were well past their prime, and a couple that are still very young. In all barcelonas success who have they played against that was GOAT at keeping the ball? bleeping arsenal used to be considered the next best passers after barcelona

alexjanosik wrote:

Wilshire kept playing with Xavi!!!!!
Hilarious.Go watch the match again.As usual Barca dominated possession and chances.
And in the second game Wilshire was invisible and Arsenal were reduced to parking the bus.Xavi completely dominated.

As i already wrote, how much possession arsenal had has bleep all to do with how wilshere kept the ball against barcelona, how is this difficult to understand? with the likes of djourou and song giving the ball away whenever barcelona pressed, it has nothing to do with wilshere


3:40 unlucky xavi, 3:59 byyyyyyeeeeeeeeee byyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeee xavi, 6:15 xavi: ahhh not this again

alexjanosik wrote:

Maradona was a no.10 who used to barely average 30 passes per game.He would be clueless in CM against Xavi,Iniesta and Busquets.
Giresse was a very good player but just not in the league of Xavi and Iniesta.
The name Beckenbauer might sound impressive.But again he was not a tiki taka master.He used to drive from the back and was very direct.
Dont let names fool you.
The midfield he has put down would be comfortably and utterly played off the park.His trio would lose the ball easily and the Barca trio would run circles round them.

Did you like watch one game of maradona and decide you know all about him? seems like it tbh. My word 30 passes a game? i dont know if you are actually joking. I guess not please, count the passes in these match highlights, i cant be bothered, its up to you to prove your claim







(this game as an example he had less involvement in build up and more focus on the final third)

i could continue and continue finding these videos, it seems there are quite a lot of them on youtube which is nice, even though i notice they havent actually included all his passes

Beckenbauer had excellent positioning, even better than busquets, was excellent on the ball as well. Maradona was more comfortable on the ball than anyone else i have seen, giresse was a fantastic player at controlling and passing the ball in tight areas. They would not be outpassed busquets, iniesta and xavi, they might be slightly more direct though

Edit: workrate? please.....

Best post I have seen on this forum. You are by far the best poster here. Once again Alex, Diego has defeated yoU! U mad brah?

alexjanosik wrote:
The midfield he put up just doesnt have the workrate and defense to stop the Barca trio.Maradona was a 10 and he wasnt the hardest working player on the pitch.
Beckenbauer was not excatly a workhorse.He was sometimes accused of being lazy.So another player who doesnt have enough workrate.That leaves just Giresse.
That midfield doesnt have enough workrate(nowhere near as much as the Barca trio)and would simply just get overrun.

Agree with you Alex. But they are still dangerous when the ball comes to them from their defense. They are still good passers and can hold the ball very well.

While i agree they will get outpossessed and probably outpassed, you cannot still count them out because they are awesome players at the end of the day. They will still provide an awesome link between defense and forwards and that alone makes them quite dangerous.

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:

harhar11 wrote:[Wilshere played good but by the way some are talking about that performance You would belive that Arsenal had like 70% possession while creating chance after chance after chance, when the reality is far away from that. Barca still the the most possession and created atleast just as many chance as Arsenal did. The reason why Arsenal won was not because of Wilshere, it was because the referee wrongly disallowed Messis goal and robbed Barca 2 penalties

Sometimes arguments on this forum seem so futile. I have no idea why what % of the ball arsenal had has to do with anything, i was just pointing out that if wilshere could keep the ball against xavi ect (i dont give a bleep how much his teammates lost the ball and therefore how much % of the ball arsenal had) i dont know why anyone would think the team i mentioned would be "chasing xavi's shadow" as alex claimed. Looking at the last 4 years, outside of barcelona there have been hardly any great ball retaining midfielders they played against, only a few that were well past their prime, and a couple that are still very young. In all barcelonas success who have they played against that was GOAT at keeping the ball? bleeping arsenal used to be considered the next best passers after barcelona

alexjanosik wrote:

Wilshire kept playing with Xavi!!!!!
Hilarious.Go watch the match again.As usual Barca dominated possession and chances.
And in the second game Wilshire was invisible and Arsenal were reduced to parking the bus.Xavi completely dominated.

As i already wrote, how much possession arsenal had has bleep all to do with how wilshere kept the ball against barcelona, how is this difficult to understand? with the likes of djourou and song giving the ball away whenever barcelona pressed, it has nothing to do with wilshere


3:40 unlucky xavi, 3:59 byyyyyyeeeeeeeeee byyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeee xavi, 6:15 xavi: ahhh not this again

alexjanosik wrote:

Maradona was a no.10 who used to barely average 30 passes per game.He would be clueless in CM against Xavi,Iniesta and Busquets.
Giresse was a very good player but just not in the league of Xavi and Iniesta.
The name Beckenbauer might sound impressive.But again he was not a tiki taka master.He used to drive from the back and was very direct.
Dont let names fool you.
The midfield he has put down would be comfortably and utterly played off the park.His trio would lose the ball easily and the Barca trio would run circles round them.

Did you like watch one game of maradona and decide you know all about him? seems like it tbh. My word 30 passes a game? i dont know if you are actually joking. I guess not please, count the passes in these match highlights, i cant be bothered, its up to you to prove your claim







(this game as an example he had less involvement in build up and more focus on the final third)

i could continue and continue finding these videos, it seems there are quite a lot of them on youtube which is nice, even though i notice they havent actually included all his passes

Beckenbauer had excellent positioning, even better than busquets, was excellent on the ball as well. Maradona was more comfortable on the ball than anyone else i have seen, giresse was a fantastic player at controlling and passing the ball in tight areas. They would not be outpassed busquets, iniesta and xavi, they might be slightly more direct though

Edit: workrate? please.....

Picking out odd games where Maradona had a lot of passes.
I guess the word on average escaped you.I can point you countless matches where Maradona had less than 30 passes but whats the point.
Xavi averages 100 passes a game,week in week out,game in game out for years.There is a mountain of a difference.As good as Maradona was he doesnt have the awareness,disciploine,positioning and workrate to outpass Xavi in midfield.Maradona would chase shadows.
As for your other claim Beckenbauer was not positionally better than Busquets.Once more fail on your part.He was an attacking sweeper.So by nature he used to drive with the ball forward any opportunity he could get thereby leaving his position exposed.Busquets is superior to the kaiser positionally quite comfortably.In a given season you can count the number of times Busquets is out of position on your one hand.
Once again son,you are just pulling names out of thin air and hoping to fool everybody.Unlike you I have actualy seen many games of the Kaiser.So stop pulling names and trying to fool everybody.
The please after the workrate shows you know nothing about the game.
Xavi,Iniesta and Busquets are 3 of the hardest workers in midfield that you will ever see.One of the reasons reason why the trio enjoy so much possession in midfield is because they work ridiculously hard off the ball to get the ball back.
Beckenbauer and Maradona have very poor workrate compared to the Barca trio.They would simply not put in enough work to win the ball back once they lose it.
But I suppose you are so clueless that the point went over your head.
Which brings me to my next point.In Beckenbauers days team pressing was non existent.Everyone would just stand back off the ball especially in midfield.Individual pressing might have been there but as a unit pressing was non existent.
To an extent team pressing was also not there for Giresse and Maradona.
Atleast nowhere near as much as Barca have to face some times.
The Barca trio have proved that they can outpass anybody even under extreme team pressing.
Your trio wouldnt know what hit them.
Try and bring some arguments to back up your claim instead of just putting up great names from history.But seeing how clueless your posts look,I doubt you can.

alexjanosik wrote:

Picking out odd games where Maradona had a lot of passes.
I guess the word on average escaped you.I can point you countless matches where Maradona had less than 30 passes but whats the point.
Xavi averages 100 passes a game,week in week out,game in game out for years.There is a mountain of a difference.As good as Maradona was he doesnt have the awareness,disciploine,positioning and workrate to outpass Xavi in midfield.Maradona would chase shadows.

Well listen buddy, i said from the start maradona did play most of his career at the attacking tip of the midfield, even sometimes moving into the forward position, so naturally he would not have passed the ball as much as xavi overall. My point is, he did play a deeper position at times, particularly when his pace started go, and he showed he had the qualities to play as a deeper playmaker that you claim he didnt have. You say he lacked discipline, you should watch the 86 world cup final, where he gave up individual glory to help his teammates by playing deeper and taking his man marker with him. I said there is two ways of looking at my team, with maradona rampaging at attack in a direct style, or you could play him more withdrawn to add numbers in midfield to keep the ball. Even though he did not always play deep, im still suspicious about your 30 passes per game claim, did you count the times he passed throughout his career? i find that almost impossible to believe. One last point about xavis passing stats, watch maradonas teams, and then watch barcelona. The philosophies are so different, barcelona now play an ultra-short passing game, maradonas teams in contrast played a much more direct styles, this surely must impact passing stats. Example: xavi gets the ball, passes the ball short, gets it back, passes again, gets it back again, passes again, gets it back again. Maradona, passes the ball, teammate passes forward as soon as they can(probably loses it as well). See the difference to how many passes a player can have in that type of system?
I dont even know why you think he didnt have workrate, everyone knows he wasnt the most professional off pitch, but on it he gave everything for the team, strong, fast, aggressive, he hounded players to try an win the ball back, this is the reason some people compare tevez to him.

alexjanosik wrote:


As for your other claim Beckenbauer was not positionally better than Busquets.Once more fail on your part.He was an attacking sweeper.So by nature he used to drive with the ball forward any opportunity he could get thereby leaving his position exposed.Busquets is superior to the kaiser positionally quite comfortably.In a given season you can count the number of times Busquets is out of position on your one hand.
Once again son,you are just pulling names out of thin air and hoping to fool everybody.Unlike you I have actualy seen many games of the Kaiser.So stop pulling names and trying to fool everybody.

Yeah, right, beckenbauer was just an attacking defender that didnt know how to hold his position? watch the 74 world cup final against hollands wonderful losers, almost perfect defensive performance

alexjanosik wrote:

The please after the workrate shows you know nothing about the game.
Xavi,Iniesta and Busquets are 3 of the hardest workers in midfield that you will ever see.One of the reasons reason why the trio enjoy so much possession in midfield is because they work ridiculously hard off the ball to get the ball back.
Beckenbauer and Maradona have very poor workrate compared to the Barca trio.They would simply not put in enough work to win the ball back once they lose it.
But I suppose you are so clueless that the point went over your head.
Which brings me to my next point.In Beckenbauers days team pressing was non existent.Everyone would just stand back off the ball especially in midfield.Individual pressing might have been there but as a unit pressing was non existent.

You misunderstood what i was implying. Im not denying workrate is crucial, im dismissing your claim about my midfield having poor workrate. Barcelonas workrate comes as a team as they press very intelligently, what did pep call it the 3 second rule? 3 seconds of intense strategic pressing before the opponent either loses this ball or its out of play. As much as anything this workrate is a result of the manager and his tactics (also having smart players), i already mentioned i disagree maradona had poor workrate, as for beckenbauer, if you put him in a team that presses, i think he would have the intelligence and application to press at the right intensity and at the right times. Like you said midfield pressing was not used then as it is today, pressing was not required from beckenbauer as it would be today, if you transported busquets to the 60s/70s you would say the same about him

why did this debate turn into a xavi vs maradona topic, two different players.

Are we comparing Maradona and Xavi... please...

Busquets better than Beckenbauer

Le Samourai wrote:



Overrated

He literally did create chance after chance, but no a possession stat at the end of the game means his performance was average.

He says wilshere literally created chance after chance and he post a video in which he only created 1,5 chance

The only real chance he created was that van persie chance at 1:41 and then a half chance at 4:00. But what he really impressed against barca was his ability to shield the ball and his maturity. But to say that he created chance after chance!

As I said, Wilshere played good but the video only made me belive that the performance is even more overrated than I initially belivied. Now this is creating chance after chance, shielding the ball to perfection and dictating the game away from home in a CL game.

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
Sometimes arguments on this forum seem so futile. I have no idea why what % of the ball arsenal had has to do with anything, i was just pointing out that if wilshere could keep the ball against xavi ect (i dont give a bleep how much his teammates lost the ball and therefore how much % of the ball arsenal had) i dont know why anyone would think the team i mentioned would be "chasing xavi's shadow" as alex claimed. Looking at the last 4 years, outside of barcelona there have been hardly any great ball retaining midfielders they played against, only a few that were well past their prime, and a couple that are still very young. In all barcelonas success who have they played against that was GOAT at keeping the ball? bleeping arsenal used to be considered the next best passers after barcelona

alexjanosik wrote:

Wilshire kept playing with Xavi!!!!!
Hilarious.Go watch the match again.As usual Barca dominated possession and chances.
And in the second game Wilshire was invisible and Arsenal were reduced to parking the bus.Xavi completely dominated.

As i already wrote, how much possession arsenal had has bleep all to do with how wilshere kept the ball against barcelona, how is this difficult to understand? with the likes of djourou and song giving the ball away whenever barcelona pressed, it has nothing to do with wilshere


3:40 unlucky xavi, 3:59 byyyyyyeeeeeeeeee byyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeee xavi, 6:15 xavi: ahhh not this again

The only one that was impressive was 3:59 but what was so impressive with what wilshere did there? He just "attacked" the open space. It wasnt as if he did this

Kizu wrote:Busquets better than Beckenbauer

Take a random line out of context to try to make someone else look like an idiot

man...just

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

Picking out odd games where Maradona had a lot of passes.
I guess the word on average escaped you.I can point you countless matches where Maradona had less than 30 passes but whats the point.
Xavi averages 100 passes a game,week in week out,game in game out for years.There is a mountain of a difference.As good as Maradona was he doesnt have the awareness,disciploine,positioning and workrate to outpass Xavi in midfield.Maradona would chase shadows.

Well listen buddy, i said from the start maradona did play most of his career at the attacking tip of the midfield, even sometimes moving into the forward position, so naturally he would not have passed the ball as much as xavi overall. My point is, he did play a deeper position at times, particularly when his pace started go, and he showed he had the qualities to play as a deeper playmaker that you claim he didnt have. You say he lacked discipline, you should watch the 86 world cup final, where he gave up individual glory to help his teammates by playing deeper and taking his man marker with him. I said there is two ways of looking at my team, with maradona rampaging at attack in a direct style, or you could play him more withdrawn to add numbers in midfield to keep the ball. Even though he did not always play deep, im still suspicious about your 30 passes per game claim, did you count the times he passed throughout his career? i find that almost impossible to believe. One last point about xavis passing stats, watch maradonas teams, and then watch barcelona. The philosophies are so different, barcelona now play an ultra-short passing game, maradonas teams in contrast played a much more direct styles, this surely must impact passing stats. Example: xavi gets the ball, passes the ball short, gets it back, passes again, gets it back again, passes again, gets it back again. Maradona, passes the ball, teammate passes forward as soon as they can(probably loses it as well). See the difference to how many passes a player can have in that type of system?
I dont even know why you think he didnt have workrate, everyone knows he wasnt the most professional off pitch, but on it he gave everything for the team, strong, fast, aggressive, he hounded players to try an win the ball back, this is the reason some people compare tevez to him.

alexjanosik wrote:


As for your other claim Beckenbauer was not positionally better than Busquets.Once more fail on your part.He was an attacking sweeper.So by nature he used to drive with the ball forward any opportunity he could get thereby leaving his position exposed.Busquets is superior to the kaiser positionally quite comfortably.In a given season you can count the number of times Busquets is out of position on your one hand.
Once again son,you are just pulling names out of thin air and hoping to fool everybody.Unlike you I have actualy seen many games of the Kaiser.So stop pulling names and trying to fool everybody.

Yeah, right, beckenbauer was just an attacking defender that didnt know how to hold his position? watch the 74 world cup final against hollands wonderful losers, almost perfect defensive performance

alexjanosik wrote:

The please after the workrate shows you know nothing about the game.
Xavi,Iniesta and Busquets are 3 of the hardest workers in midfield that you will ever see.One of the reasons reason why the trio enjoy so much possession in midfield is because they work ridiculously hard off the ball to get the ball back.
Beckenbauer and Maradona have very poor workrate compared to the Barca trio.They would simply not put in enough work to win the ball back once they lose it.
But I suppose you are so clueless that the point went over your head.
Which brings me to my next point.In Beckenbauers days team pressing was non existent.Everyone would just stand back off the ball especially in midfield.Individual pressing might have been there but as a unit pressing was non existent.

You misunderstood what i was implying. Im not denying workrate is crucial, im dismissing your claim about my midfield having poor workrate. Barcelonas workrate comes as a team as they press very intelligently, what did pep call it the 3 second rule? 3 seconds of intense strategic pressing before the opponent either loses this ball or its out of play. As much as anything this workrate is a result of the manager and his tactics (also having smart players), i already mentioned i disagree maradona had poor workrate, as for beckenbauer, if you put him in a team that presses, i think he would have the intelligence and application to press at the right intensity and at the right times. Like you said midfield pressing was not used then as it is today, pressing was not required from beckenbauer as it would be today, if you transported busquets to the 60s/70s you would say the same about him

So esentially you are agreeing.Iknow Maradona played some games in midfield towards the end of his career.But he played the majority of his games as a 10.As a 10 you simply dont have the amount of passes that Xavi would have.
So who would pick in your CM?
A 10(arguably the greatest 10 ever) who played his entire career as a 10 and averaged around 30-40 passes per game.
Or the undisputed possession king in history,the man who averages 100 passes a game week in week out.The undisputed master of tempo control.
Also I never said Maradona had no workrate.i said he didnt have the workrate of the Barca trio which is true.Xavi runs the most in the Barca team almost every single game.And this in a team where everyone(barring Messi) works ridiculously hard.Based on the games I have seen I very much doubt Maradona was the hardest working player on the team.
And I never said Maradona didnt have tactical discipline,positioning and awareness.
I said that in comparison to xavi.Do you seriously think Maradona would have the tactical discipline,positioning and awareness of Xavi in midfield.
I dont think so.Not even close.
You are going all by hypotheticals.If Maradona had the system,if Maradona played in CM,if Maradona had the workrate,if maradona had the tactical awareness and positioning etc.
I am going all by facts.And the facts say that Maradona would get comfortably outplayed by Xavi in CM.
Regarding Beckenbauer,I never said he was an attacking defender who never held position.
You claimed that the Kaiser was positionally better than Busquets.I refuted that by saying that the kaiser was an attacking sweeper so by definition Busquets is positionally superior.
Its like saying Dani Alves is positionally great.By nature he is an attacking wingback so he is not positionally perfect.Sure in the odd games he would hold position but it goes against his nature.Same with the Kaiser.I have seen the 74 WC final.Impressive but one off games prove nothing.He was an attacking sweeper and Busquets has the edge in positioning.

Regarding workrate,thanks for agreeing that there was no pressing in Beckenbauer's time.Again you are dealing in hypotheticals.If Beckenbauer was in a team that pressed!!
Fact is he was not and he was a lazy player(compared to the Barca trio).
Had nowhere near the workrate of the Barca trio.
Maradona too didnt have the workrate of the Barca trio.Again not saying he had no workrate but did he have the workrate of the Barca trio?Pls no hypotheticals.
So my points stand.Your players didnt have to deal with intense midfield pressing like the Barca trio does(and thrives under) and your trio doesnt have anywhere near the workrate of the Barca trio.
They would get outpassed and outplayed comfortably.

I'm very delighted and very glad that my thread has initiated such thoughtful and informative debate!

Very good points from all.