Re: Monaco's Project: PSG/City way or Anzhi/Malaga way ?!

by Hapless_Hans Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:56 pm

teamanarchy wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:why is it more rubbish than, say, going by personal feeling?
lol.

Because, how a club performs in cup competitions is what determines it right? Or how a country's clubs perform...
But, say, hypothetically, England has 4 clubs playing in the UCL...
In February, after all clubs secured a place into the knockout rounds, only 2 points separate ALL of these 4 teams at the top of the BPL.
None of these clubs can afford to rest their players on the weekend fixture before the round of 16 games, and subsequently several key players are fatigued for the CL fixtures in every team and all four teams are eliminated from European competition. The Premier League title race goes down to the last day with three teams all still with a chance to win the trophy on that final day. The winning team claims the title through goal difference.
The Premier league season goes down as perhaps the greatest in history and no fan in the world will deny the sheer quality of the Premier League.

Now, the UEFA Coefficient sees one thing from that entire hypothetical scenario:
"all four teams are eliminated from European competition"
And from this it draws the conclusion that English teams are worse than (say for instance) Spanish teams, where, going with the hypothetical scenario, the league was won half way through march and teams could afford to rest players before every Champions League game.

oh I understand absolutely why this ranking is not an perfectly accurate measurement. Me posting it was for most parts a joke to those debates "Ligue 1 < Serie A" "No, ..." etc pp

But following your example, was La Liga wrapped up in March? Is your hypothetical scenario actually accurate?
I don't think so. Fact is, English top teams consistently got their arses handed by Spanish teams recently, so that for me points to the Spanish being the better league at the moment.

Now if you name other factors, competitiveness, appeal, excitement, etc, ok sure but you have to actually show why the PL has more of that.
You can't just claim it and expect everyone to go along with it, as many posters do.
Or those usual claims of the Bundesliga not being competitive etc.

by Hapless_Hans Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:58 pm

Anyway, I don't think I disagree that much with you on anything so we do not have to continue it, I was more or less semi-trolling with the UEFA link anyway Laughing

by cyberman Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:01 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:So if a league 'famously does not care about Europa league', in what way does that factor in a judgement on what's the better league?
Results matter, period.
If you want to weigh other factors as well, fine, then name them, but to dismiss results by pointing to some 'cultural thing' is not really sound debate.

CL and Europa league is where teams from different leagues meet.
The results from those meetings constitute the coefficient ranking, whether you agree with the details of the mechanism or not.
So for me, this ranking is by no means more rubbish than people spouting their personal preferences as facts.

It's like comparing quality of teams by the results of the cola del ray or fa cup.
And I'm pretty sure the epl v la liga results have been pretty even over the last while.
If you're going to use results to justify your point, then post said results kid.

by Art Morte Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:11 pm

It's all down to the sugar daddy, Anzhi and Malaga could have kept going the gold-paved road if their owners had kept the cash-tap flowing.

Anzhi in Dagestan (although they lived in Moscow) were able to get players like Eto'o, Roberto Carlos, Willian and Lassana Diarra when the money was there, I'm sure Monaco will have no problem getting some good players if they can pay them what ever.

by teamanarchy Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:14 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
teamanarchy wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:why is it more rubbish than, say, going by personal feeling?
lol.

Because, how a club performs in cup competitions is what determines it right? Or how a country's clubs perform...
But, say, hypothetically, England has 4 clubs playing in the UCL...
In February, after all clubs secured a place into the knockout rounds, only 2 points separate ALL of these 4 teams at the top of the BPL.
None of these clubs can afford to rest their players on the weekend fixture before the round of 16 games, and subsequently several key players are fatigued for the CL fixtures in every team and all four teams are eliminated from European competition. The Premier League title race goes down to the last day with three teams all still with a chance to win the trophy on that final day. The winning team claims the title through goal difference.
The Premier league season goes down as perhaps the greatest in history and no fan in the world will deny the sheer quality of the Premier League.

Now, the UEFA Coefficient sees one thing from that entire hypothetical scenario:
"all four teams are eliminated from European competition"
And from this it draws the conclusion that English teams are worse than (say for instance) Spanish teams, where, going with the hypothetical scenario, the league was won half way through march and teams could afford to rest players before every Champions League game.

oh I understand absolutely why this ranking is not an perfectly accurate measurement. Me posting it was for most parts a joke to those debates "Ligue 1 < Serie A" "No, ..." etc pp

But following your example, was La Liga wrapped up in March? Is your hypothetical scenario actually accurate?
I don't think so. Fact is, English top teams consistently got their arses handed by Spanish teams recently, so that for me points to the Spanish being the better league at the moment.

Now if you name other factors, competitiveness, appeal, excitement, etc, ok sure but you have to actually show why the PL has more of that.
You can't just claim it and expect everyone to go along with it, as many posters do.
Or those usual claims of the Bundesliga not being competitive etc.

I was sincerly trying to keep it hypothetical.
Replace England with Germany and Spain with Greece if you want... the point was that a league that can keep running competitively till matchday 38 is better in my eyes than one that can go only until matchday 29.

And that's not a stab at Germany either... In fact, I love the Bundesliga... Nobody records higher attendences, or has lower debts across the board. Plus, it was actually probably the most competitive league until Bayern just became too damn good for the whole world.
I was simply trying to illustrate how getting far in knockout cup competitions doesn't make your league better.
Spanish teams have been pretty dominant for a few years now... but it wasn't that long ago when there were 3 English teams in the CL Semis and we were watching an all English final in Moscow.

These things swing from one year to the next... It's only a matter of time before some club eclipses Real Madrid and as a fan I accept that and try not to rip on the Man United fans, because sooner or later, we will trade places...

by Hapless_Hans Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:38 pm

I absolutely agree TA.

by Tomwin Lannister Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:38 pm

sportsczy wrote:OM makes Juve look like Bari right now Serie A has no elite teams.... NONE. Ligue 1 has PSG. After that, you have a bunch of second tier teams with Juve, Napoli and Roma. That's it... the rest are average. Ligue 1 has Monaco, OM, Lyon and Lille that are all very competitive. ONLY reason Lyon has taken it easy in the transfer market is that their new stadium is getting finished and it is entirely financed by Aulas. But they have really good young players like Lacazette, Gonalons, Umtiti, Ferri, Plea, etc. Fournier is a very capable manager too. I think they surprise a lot of people...

Serie A has the prestige of its past that holds a romantic flavor to it. But in terms of youth player development, attractiveness to South America and African players, and long term prospects, Ligue 1 is moving up and fast.

As i've said the past 2 years... PSG and Monaco have raised the bar and the other top tier teams have upped their game because they need to be competitive.

Jardim and Bielsa play very attacking footy to boot + PSG play attacking + Fournier attacked at Reims too. The only defensive teams on top are Lille and St Etienne.

What a ridiculous, untrue and downright retarded statement. OM Laughing

by Eivindo Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:02 pm

France is a feeder country, done dealio. Nobody dreams of playing in France, players still flock to Serie A even when the empire started crumbling in 2005, nearly 10 years ago.

Big clubs come knocking on the Serie A door every year, cause it is, and will always be full of talents.

France might attract the Africans easier because of the language, but the South Americans in general will always choose Italy or Spain unless you give them infinite money, like PSQ will and can.

Monaco is a weird project. I cant help but getting Turkey-vibes from that. You dont come to Monaco to be a serious football player Razz

Perhaps Balotelli would fit right in lol

by Doc Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:31 pm

I think Sports reached a new level of bias in this thread. And while I do consider PSG to better than Juventus currently, Serie A still is, how to put, a league that is more favoured by the casual football fan than Ligue 1. I don't wanna say "better" as I would have to explain what do I mean by better.

I do have no idea what Monaco's business model so I'll have to take Nick and Sport's word for it.

by Donuts Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:33 pm

S wrote:
Donuts wrote:well to be fair juve hasn't done there best either in the champions league.

Well to be fair,Barca won zilch last year and who are Chivas ? I've never heard of them.

Now jog on.

your lack of football knowledge isn't the clubs fault :coffee:

but enjoy euro's next season after you fail yet again to surpass the group stages

by farfan Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:34 pm

S wrote:
Robespierre wrote:Serie A is in decline , but it is always better than Ligue One so far , simply.
If we want to consider 1/2 clubs ok ( but how much rating the Monaco ? ) , but Serie A is superior for overall quality .
On the other hand many clubs continue to take from Italian clubs because there are always many talents
Agreed
Yup.Once a mediocre league,always a mediocre league
.

go tell that to the premier league Rolling Eyes

who despite lacking in local talent , managed to leapfrog la LIGA and serie A into becoming the world's richest and most followed league .

Big clubs come knocking on the Serie A door every year, cause it is, and will always be full of talents.

and ligue 1 isn't ? Laughing

ligue 1 exports way more talent than serie A .. especially to the premier league .

and unlike the players from serie A , the french ones don't flop 85% of the time :coffee:

by Lord Awesome Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:47 pm

Just pointing this out right now, Monaco have a highly rated youth system and they like to buy young players from other clubs tyo make a profit.

They're more like a Porto Benfica. :coffee:

by BarcaLearning Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:19 am

Donuts wrote:well honestly i see France as the third best place for players to go now, it surpassed Italy with the money they give players, and many people would love to live in france.
seems to attract all the wives and families.

Just wondering, third above which of the top 3 leagues EPL, La Liga and Bundesliga I thought are the top 3?

by Donuts Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:13 am

those are the top leagues i'm talking about general destination though, Bayern is the super power in germany, you don't see many world class players going to germany unless it's bayern.

France has PSG and Monaco who have the money and location a lot of players desire.

by sportsczy Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:47 am

http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Actualites/Griezmann-pour-remplacer-james/484430

In discussion with LaReal. Told them that they will trigger Griezmann's release clause. Just waiting for James deal to finish and then go ahead with this one it seems.

In discussion with Bayern regarding Shaqiri. Maybe some Bayern fans can add to this... but it seems like it's moving along.

Sneijder approached as well as Rodrigo.

All the money being reinvested into very good players.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:19 pm

I can not add to this..

There's rumours about Shaqiri to Roma, Juve, now Monaco, earlier Liverpool, United..
Shaq himself stoked the rumors by publicly declaring he's unhappy with the playing time he gets.

But even if he does consider moving, I don't think we're incined to sell.
Not unless we add another player, but I don't know who and why we would do that.
I like and value Shaq as a squad player, he's not more at the moment, and so do Pep and Sammer.
If he's unhappy about that that's not our problem. Let him rot on the bench another year for all I care if he starts acting out.

by Kaladin Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:19 pm

Speaking of Monaco, anyone know what's up with Kondogbia? He was touted as a great talent, supposedly, yet i haven't heard much of him since he joined.

by Mr Nick09 Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:27 pm

Kondogbia was overhyped because of Pogba... decent/good player, nothing more.

by sportsczy Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:31 pm

Kondogbia's 21. Won't turn 22 until next CY... he's going to either show himself or not this season at Monaco. They've opened up the space to make him an undisputed starter by selling Obadi. Jardim's style should be better for him too.

by farfan Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:14 pm

Kondogbia is still young .

if you wanna talk about a monaco recruit who didn't live up to the hype , try moutinho.

by Lord Awesome Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:40 pm

Moutinho's done well I think. It's not like he's a WC either. With James now gone tho I think the creative focus will shift to him entirely. Would rather have Shaqiri then Sneijder.

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