How Highly do you Rate John Terry?

Valkyrja wrote:

A team plays to its strengths. You could argue that Terry wouldn't be as good in a high line as he is now, but that doesn't matter, because (iirc) he never played in a high line. Xavi wouldn't be the Xavi we know in a counter-attacking team.  Does that make him worse ?

See, and that's where you are wrong based on Youtube phrases. How can Modric excell playing direct football for Madrid or Fabregas for Chelsea but Xavi in his prime who was better in every single footballing aspect than both couldn't? At worst he'd play further forward alongside physical midfield partners who would do the dirt work for him but his main job to create chances, playmake, play throughballs and ping passes around will be the same. The Terry example is different. Defenders are rated on their defensive work and if a defender is surrounded by 10 men around his own box so he rarely gets isolated 1 vs. 1 against any dangerous attacking threat then it helps him a great deal in his main job: to defend. Has Atletico not proved it already that you can look like prime Sacchi's Milan defensively without having the best defenders in the world by working hard as a unit? Well, Chelsea are playing no different. Defenders can be helped a great deal by collective and tactical work, more than any other position for sure. Obviously a central midfielder also relies on his teammates making the proper runs and movements and getting him on the ball, at the end of the day it's a team sport after all where no player is independant, nonetheless surely defense is the one position which you can influence the most by hard work + certain tactical measurements (for example parking the bus).

Your logic falls flat on its face when you realize Atletico are nowhere near the same side defensively without Godin or if you want to go back to last season Felipe Luis too.

Too be a fantastic organizer and leader is not an easy thing to do and very few excel at it to be able to be so good as you should realize with Pique

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Your logic falls flat on its face when you realize Atletico are nowhere near the same side defensively without Godin or if you want to go back to last season Felipe Luis too.

Too be a fantastic organizer and leader is not an easy thing to do and very few excel at it to be able to be so good as you should realize with Pique

But it doesn't. Unless you think I'm saying you can play any clown in defense and it doesn't make a difference. Which I'm not. Terry is still a great defender. As is Godin. But Godin was also there in 2010 when Atletico conceded more goals than Deportivo who got relegated that season. As were many other players who played a CL final since then. Yet only 1 major variable has changed: Simeone.

Fair enough

Fußball wrote:Maybe in a world where Koscielny is a world class defender.

Koscielny IS a WC defender. Doesn't matter how much you try to deny it.

The Franchise wrote:I think at the hight of his powers Rio Ferdinand was better and I think Stam was better.

Vidic at his best, Carvalho at his best and Adams are his best were not inferior either.

My opinion.

In terms of ability, I can't disagree. Sol Campbell was better than Terry as well in his prime. But in terms of consistency, Terry is perhaps better than most of them. None of those defenders were/are as good at the age of 34 as Terry is.

RealGunner wrote:

Fußball wrote:Maybe in a world where Koscielny is a world class defender.

Koscielny IS a WC defender. Doesn't matter how much you try to deny it.

Maybe in a world where Wilshere is a world class talent.

RealGunner wrote:

Fußball wrote:Maybe in a world where Koscielny is a world class defender.

Koscielny IS a WC defender. Doesn't matter how much you try to deny it.

The Franchise wrote:I think at the hight of his powers Rio Ferdinand was better and I think Stam was better.

Vidic at his best, Carvalho at his best and Adams are his best were not inferior either.

My opinion.

In terms of ability, I can't disagree. Sol Campbell was better than Terry as well in his prime. But in terms of consistency, Terry is perhaps better than most of them. None of those defenders were/are as good at the age of 34 as Terry is.

This, I think is JT's greatest strength.

He has been one of the best defenders in the EPL for over 10 years, where players like Vidic, Carvalho, Gallas et al. have risen to perhaps greater peaks, they have also fallen before Terry.

His peak has plateaued for much longer and many Chelsea fans see him as a starter beyond this season, too.

@Fuss, while I get what you're saying, that JT cannot play the high line, I think the comparison with Xavi is fair. Also, saying you would move Xavi forward in a counter attacking system means we should be allowed to move JT into the center of a 5 man defence in a highline system, no? That seems unfair otherwise.

Also, assuming the counter attacking system was a midfield of Xavi-Bus-Iniesta, Xavi wouldn't be pushed forward, as Iniesta is no better a being a destroyer.

I think it's not the same. What's Xavi's job? Basically to receive, keep, pass and distribute the ball. He will do that in any system. Again, explain why Fabregas or Modric could and Xavi couldn't. Xavi was elected player of the tournament in Euro 2008 playing alongside Senna flanked by Silva and Iniesta and 2 strikers upfront (Villa + Torres). That's in principle not much different from Madrid's lineup with Kroos + Modric flanked by Isco and James and Ronaldo and Benzema upfront in 4-4-2.

If Xavi played in a counterattacking system with less possession the problem maybe would be that he has to chase the game more (again, exaggerated, Xavi had better defensive awareness, positioning and ball retention under pressure than Fabregas ever did and he just does well for Chelsea). But defending wouldn't be his main job.

Meanwhile Terry's main job is to defend and his life can change very quickly depending on the work his teammates put in and the tactical setup of the team.

On a bigger scale, keeping clean sheets is easier to achieve without talent than scoring 5 goals. You often see underdog teams closing the opposition down like Greece, Costa Rica in the recent WC, Westbrom against United etc. but the other way around you pretty much never see underdogs teams destroying much better teams, do you (inb4 some video of Arsenal getting destroyed by scrubs )?

Defense is more dependant on tactics and collective attitude. And in that sense John Terry had the optimal environment under Mourinho. Example. You will never see this happen to John Terry under Mourinho:



2 Barca players in Barca's entire half.

Fußball wrote:I think it's not the same. What's Xavi's job? Basically to receive, keep, pass and distribute the ball. He will do that in any system. Again, explain why Fabregas or Modric could and Xavi couldn't. Xavi was elected player of the tournament in Euro 2008 playing alongside Senna flanked by Silva and Iniesta and 2 strikers upfront (Villa + Torres). That's in principle not much different from Madrid's lineup with Kroos + Modric flanked by Isco and James and Ronaldo and Benzema upfront in 4-4-2.

If Xavi played in a counterattacking system with less possession the problem maybe would be that he has to chase the game more (again, exaggerated, Xavi had better defensive awareness, positioning and ball retention under pressure than Fabregas ever did and he just does well for Chelsea). But defending wouldn't be his main job.

Meanwhile Terry's main job is to defend and his life can change very quickly depending on the work his teammates put in and the tactical setup of the team.

On a bigger scale, keeping clean sheets is easier to achieve without talent than scoring 5 goals. You often see underdog teams closing the opposition down like Greece, Costa Rica in the recent WC, Westbrom against United etc. but the other way around you pretty much never see underdogs teams destroying much better teams, do you (inb4 some video of Arsenal getting destroyed by scrubs )?

Defense is more dependant on tactics and collective attitude. And in that sense John Terry had the optimal environment under Mourinho. Example. You will never see this happen to John Terry under Mourinho:



2 Barca players in Barca's entire half.

I don't think Xavi would be as good in a team where his teammates are not interested in passing the ball. He would still be a great player but he wouldn't reach the absolute peak that he has with Barca.

The thing with the Terry tactics+collective attitude defensive argument you're putting forward is that a similar argument can be used to discredit any defender from modern times. Sure, maybe in Maldini's early days or Baresi and Beckenbauer times, defenders had more of an individual impact. But nowadays, all the defensive work in all the teams is collectively shared and tactics rule the roost.

In that sense, I think Terry is one of the very best CBs of his time - and I honestly don't differentiate him with Puyol (in terms of skill level and ability) too much. I'd put Nesta and Cannavaro above both of them but I think that's about it.

Yes Vidic is a good call, Never rated him as he always got sent off against us XD

His consistency is not matched by any CB in PL history , which would account to him being in the top 3 I guess. The best ever CB to play in the PL though? Probably not.

1. Rio Ferdinand
2. Sol Campbell
3. John Terry

It's a tough call when comparing him to the other greats. I liked & rate prime Ferdinand better but Terry was even more solid than Ferdy. Ferdy had everything else other than Defensive ability, Aerial ability, and Strength over Terry. Campbell and him are practically the same. Adams too. As for all time great CB's, I'm sure he belongs there. Top 20-40 range probably.