Explain this paradox

Blue wrote:how likely is it that messi and Ronaldo numbers are inflated due to the concept of super teams? Never in the history of the game you ever saw so many of the best players in the world play on very few teams.

I honestly believe it won't be long before we see others duplicate their goal records.

I don't think so. These 2 are truly freak of nature . It won't be long before we see someone score as much as them but I doubt this person will be as consistent as they are. It's been like what 6-7 years a row now ? For now the Aguero , Lewandoski, Suarez , Benzema of this world can't do that.

LeBéninois wrote:

Dnmac4 wrote:

titosantill wrote:agree with dnmac4 on jordan and lebron...maradona vs messi debates makes more sense, at club level, (great teammate/playing for a greater club aside), messi has surpassed him. on an individual level, you can still debate their skillset and technique and all that. it becomes a case of preference in some cases, old school vs new school, and some add the argument who had more help.

jordan and lebron isn't even close. i'm sorry there are still a bunch of greats who aren't centers that i'd take over lebron; bird, magic, kobe (during that gasol/bynum period) to name a few. skill-set; mj takes it, championships; mj. only thing lebron has is "he's a freak of nature"...people get caught up in the present and feel the need to crown their current guy. lebron's king of this era (if durant can get some chips, i might even lean towards durant over him....i might, not for sure)...but the mj comparisons are ridiculous

Agreed. Although I think people confuse Lebron's era a little bit.  He's played 12 seasons in the NBA.

Guys like Durant and Westbrook and Steph Curry are more the new generation.  I mean Lebron is 30 years old.

I would take guys who play in Lebron's era over him where no one would ever even think that when it comes to Jordan's era.

I mean Kobe and Duncan IMO are better than Lebron and it's not mismatching era's as they all played in the league together for a decade.

Now that they have cycled out of there prime you can say Lebon's the best player.

But again people often consider Lebron to be younger than he actually is.

Tim duncan is 39 lol . Durant , Westbrook and Curry to name a few are only 3-4 years younger than Lebron. You can put Lebron in 2 eras because when Lebron will be 39 the Curry, Durant and co will be 35-36 which makes it closer than Lebron and Kobe/Duncan age difference atm.

You can't have it both ways.  

Lebron competed against Kobe and Duncan for 10 years.  To say they weren't in the same era is short-sighted.

Lebron fans generally want to place him in this new era as he doesn't have to deal with the fact that Kobe and Duncan are better than him.

That is ignoring most of his career.  Hell Tim Duncan beat him in the finals.  Yes the teams were totally outmatched and even Jordan wouldn't have carried that Cavs team over the Spurs but again that was 2007, 8 years ago.

Since then Kobe went to 3 Finals and won 2 more championships.

After the Spurs beat Lebron in the finals they went back to the finals a couple times and won another one 2 years ago.

All of this is in Lebron's Era and when he was pretty much in the prime of his career.

Again, you cannot have it both ways.

And no, you can't just say well he's in 2 era's. Jordan came into the league in the Bird/Magic era the only difference is that Jordan was the best player and Bird and Magic played on super teams.

Yes he may not have won his rings in those era's although he did beat MAgic to his first but he was the best player in the league and everyone knew it, he just needed a title to cement it which obviously he got.

Lebron having to wait for others to retire or hit the downside of there career to be the best player in the league is something all together different. Especially since he is now jumping around teams trying to create a new super team every 4-5 years.

Kobe and Duncan didn't need to do that.

The akward moment where jordan and lebron james are mentioned more than messi and maradona in a football thread.

thing about eras is, they can get so obscured. they're easier to define when players either retire or close to their retirement years. i don't want to harp on the nba thing too much, but i think in nba we generally look at the draft years as the means of associating where one's era lies. lebron's draft year is closer to the durants than it is to kobe who came in 96, so people will generally associate him with the former....be it as it may, no matter whatever era one puts it, lebron for now still has to take permission from guys like kobe, durant (no matter how boring he is) before getting at guys like mj, magic , bird

and this "paradox" is a little presumptuous, maradona and messi ; unless we are talking about argentina, they are not the only greats, footy isn't like the nba there are so many other names involved, a brazilian may feel disrespected for ignoring his own candidates no matter how long ago they played....football is too deep, globalized, and dynamic i don't buy the 'one' greatest idea in this sport...everyone has their guy for different reasons

oh and when the time comes where nobody is scoring 100 goals a year like cristiano and messi, and we go back to hailing 30 goals (which i still find very very impressive), the youngsters would create vids,giffs, memes or whatever its called showing footage of how defenders in the messi cristiano era were so pathetic that they're just letting them score....that's how sports is, i kind of feel the past isn't really meant to be revered....but thx to youtube and videos stored over the years, its appreciated

Inaccurate use of the word "paradox". Generic Messi thread. 1/10.

1 Gabriel Batistuta 1991–2002 56 78 0.718
2 Lionel Messi 2005–present 48 104 0.46

Forza wrote:Inaccurate use of the word "paradox". Generic Messi thread. 1/10.

This

There is no paradox. People are always going to criticise Messi no matter what he does. I agree with a lot of what @Bankz said in the #2 post tbh. I think Maradona's achievemt has been blown up to mythical proportions. I watched all this as it transpired and I can tell you that the Maradaona hype was never this strong when he was playing. In fact in 1986 noone rated him that highly and thought he was a talented guy with issues. The problem for Messi now is that he has made the ridiculous seem normal so people take what he does for granted because of his consistency. Zidane would have one great touch and the media would wax lyrical about it for months on end. Had Messi won the WC last summer, people would still say Maradona was greater because he carried Argentina and Messi was in a 'stacked team'.

I don't buy the stacked team BS one bit as the ARgentina squad lacks a lot of balance but that would have been a rhetoric. The only way for Messi to ever quell the doubters is to score a hattrick in every WC game and score all goals in the final. People will probably still find a way round it.

Personally, I have always thought comparing across eras is a bit silly as there are so many different variables that have to be taken account. I don't think there is one GOAT, I think there is a certain level of greatness and tiers. Messi is on the same plain as Pele and the rest but has the stats and effectiveness of Gerd Muller. That's what I think makes him insane. I'm not really into stats as a the sole criteria for judging players as you can tell Messi is the best just by watching him.

How would Maradona do in this era? For one thing he would be banned for life for all the drugs he took and the performance enhancing drugs he used. He was using these throughout his time in Napoli but he was never called out.

In terms of the CL vs the WC the arguement could go both ways, The cl is a higher level than the WC but the WC individual talent has to be applied on a different level to reach the level of a cl performance. For example, Messi plays with Barcelona where they see at least 70% of the ball so he has more time per touch to create magic. At Argentina, he is playing with lesser players/team not as well catered to him so he has to do more per touch to have the same effect.

AT the end of the day, if you don't think Messi is as good or greater than Maradona now, you will never think it. Personally, I think Maradona was a bit more innovative with his passes whereas Messi is more ruthlessly efficient and mechanical with his passes and dribbles. Again that could be my own perception because I watch Messi week in week out and his performances are fresher in my memeory. The key for me is the consistency. Maradona was the best for maybe 2 seasons (if that), 3 if I'm being generous. Messi has been a monster since the end of 2008 and has had only one season where he didn't 'perform' (13/14) despite scoring 41 goals. That shows that the expectation we have of Messi is much higher. This is probably due to how globalised football has become and how much we watch of them week in week out.

Lastly, Maradona's WC is still held to mythical proportions because at that time only the world cup was globalised in football at the time.

Apologies for the rant, I just poured out my thoughts without structure. If I have time I will reorganise it to make it better.

Back with a bang

jibers wrote:There is no paradox. People are always going to criticise Messi no matter what he does. I agree with a lot of what @Bankz said in the #2 post tbh. I think Maradona's achievemt has been blown up to mythical proportions. I watched all this as it transpired and I can tell you that the Maradaona hype was never this strong when he was playing. In fact in 1986 noone rated him that highly and thought he was a talented guy with issues. The problem for Messi now is that he has made the ridiculous seem normal so people take what he does for granted because of his consistency. Zidane would have one great touch and the media would wax lyrical about it for months on end. Had Messi won the WC last summer, people would still say Maradona was greater because he carried Argentina and Messi was in a 'stacked team'.

I don't buy the stacked team BS one bit as the ARgentina squad lacks a lot of balance but that would have been a rhetoric. The only way for Messi to ever quell the doubters is to score a hattrick in every WC game and score all goals in the final. People will probably still find a way round it.

Personally, I have always thought comparing across eras is a bit silly as there are so many different variables that have to be taken account. I don't think there is one GOAT, I think there is a certain level of greatness and tiers. Messi is on the same plain as Pele and the rest but has the stats and effectiveness of Gerd Muller. That's what I think makes him insane. I'm not really into stats as a the sole criteria for judging players as you can tell Messi is the best just by watching him.

How would Maradona do in this era? For one thing he would be banned for life for all the drugs he took and the performance enhancing drugs he used. He was using these throughout his time in Napoli but he was never called out.

In terms of the CL vs the WC the arguement could go both ways, The cl is a higher level than the WC but the WC individual talent has to be applied on a different level to reach the level of a cl performance. For example, Messi plays with Barcelona where they see at least 70% of the ball so he has more time per touch to create magic. At Argentina, he is playing with lesser players/team not as well catered to him so he has to do more per touch to have the same effect.

AT the end of the day, if you don't think Messi is as good or greater than Maradona now, you will never think it. Personally, I think Maradona was a bit more innovative with his passes whereas Messi is more ruthlessly efficient and mechanical with his passes and dribbles. Again that could be my own perception because I watch Messi week in week out and his performances are fresher in my memeory. The key for me is the consistency. Maradona was the best for maybe 2 seasons (if that), 3 if I'm being generous. Messi has been a monster since the end of 2008 and has had only one season where he didn't 'perform' (13/14) despite scoring 41 goals. That shows that the expectation we have of Messi is much higher. This is probably due to how globalised football has become and how much we watch of them week in week out.

Lastly, Maradona's WC is still held to mythical proportions because at that time only the world cup was globalised in football at the time.

Apologies for the rant, I just poured out my thoughts without structure. If I have time I will reorganise it to make it better.

football is about emotions, moments, greatness. the thing is that nobody will think of higuain missing that 1on1, people will remember Messi not winning the WC and Maradona scoring that ridiculous goal against england and lifting the trophy.

jibers wrote:

Spoiler:

Every once in a while you see a gem like a vintage Jibers post