Lionel Messi Cements Himself as the GOAT

Myesyats wrote:

farfan wrote:

Pedram wrote:

This is insanely racist, those players are as French as any other, it doesn't matter what their skin color is.

You're talking about racism to a Polish person might as well be arguing with a concrete wall.

Lol wtf I didn’t say they aren’t French or deserving of French citizenship but they do come from a line of migrants anyway that wasn’t my point. The point is that France enjoys an abundance of talent due to their colonial past which many other NTs don’t so it’s not a level playing field to be honest

This is the case with pretty much most West European countries. Its not just limited to France. Look at the diversity in Germany's and England's teams. Even Spain and Italy have players of African descent representing them. This number is only going to increase going forward given how pace, power and athleticism has become a significant factor in modern football.

jibers wrote:He is the GOTE. Greatest of this era.

Tier 1: Di Stefano, Pele, Cruyff and Beckenbauer, Maradona and now Messi.

Tier 2: R9, CRonaldo, Mdoric, Xavi, Iniesta and Zidane, Platini

Anyone still putting Zidane in tier 1 needs their head checked. National team merchant and first touch merchant.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:@jibers I agree with your approach and list. Where do you place Orig Ronaldo?

In terms of 'cements', Messi was already this era's GOAT with or without the WC, but it certainly adds to his legacy and will forever shut off the debate w/Maradona in Argentina.

Put him in tier 2. Called him R9 my bad

Well he did it in style. Turned up with 2 goals in the biggest stage a footballer can play, scored the most high pressure pens when people said he couldn't and shouldn't take pens. Literally couldn't have done anymore.

Fitting end, even though Otamendi and Lautaro tried their best to mess him up

I'm blind, oops

The win settled so many things. For me he has been the GOAT footballer for years, now reading the internet it seems to be hard concensus as there's no holes in the CV. Now the debate is open for the overall GOAT athlete. For me he has surpassed Paavo Nurmi as the GOAT athlete.

I know that Messi fans are feeling vindicated and are probably looking to call out some of the critics. I feel the opposite What Messi did in this WC is exactly what many of us "haters" thought he could, and should have done in previous tournaments. Over the years, Messi fans have told us that our expectations were unrealistic and that it's entirely normal for the GOAT to:

- Have never had any standout knockout stage performances in 4 tournaments.
- Have similar scoring stats as the likes of Gyan Asamoah.
- Have a group stage performance against Nigeria as his defining world cup moment.
- Be faultless after defeats and have his lack of goal contributions chalked up to his teammates "letting him down".

Well it turned out those expectations weren't unfair or unrealistic after all. Club-level Messi has finally showed up on the world stage.

It also ends the forced discussion of involving Ronaldo in the GOAT debate mostly from Real Madrid fans and his ardent fanboys

I have noticed Real Madrid fans are trying to do the same with Mbappe-Haaland now that they have almost no chance of getting the Frenchman.

Harmonica wrote:The win settled so many things. For me he has been the GOAT footballer for years, now reading the internet it seems to be hard concensus as there's no holes in the CV. Now the debate is open for the overall GOAT athlete. For me he has surpassed Paavo Nurmi as the GOAT athlete.

Random, but what about in Tennis? Djokovic?

If it wasn't for the COVID sh*T he'd have probably reached the Graf and Court #1 ranking/YE #1 ranking and grand slam records by now.

Re Ronaldo vs Messi, There was a point in time though, around 2017-2018, where Ronaldo had kinda surpassed Messi in some of the public consciousness because of his extraordinary CL achievements and because of his Euro cup, Messi had no major titles with Argentina.

I've never been a Ronaldo "fan" and I didn't think he was "better" than Messi, but there was a time where he was deemed as more clutch and even dare I say more accomplished bar the Balon d Ors, even on those it was close.

Shame about CR7's post Madrid career.

The Madrid One wrote:

Harmonica wrote:The win settled so many things. For me he has been the GOAT footballer for years, now reading the internet it seems to be hard concensus as there's no holes in the CV. Now the debate is open for the overall GOAT athlete. For me he has surpassed Paavo Nurmi as the GOAT athlete.

Random, but what about in Tennis? Djokovic?

I think tennis still has its GOAT debate wide open, many sports has, Gretzky Lemieux, Tyson Ali, Bolt Nurmi etc. All could be at some level called as GOAT athletes.

Pedram wrote:

farfan wrote:

Pedram wrote:

This is insanely racist, those players are as French as any other, it doesn't matter what their skin color is.

You're talking about racism to a Polish person might as well be arguing with a concrete wall.

I know right? You'd think Poles would be more tolerant after that whole Lebensraum thing from Hitler. for a culture that was one of the primary targets of the Nazis, they seem to love the same ideology that nearly led to their extermination.

It was just a dumb statement tbh, pretty much all Western European countries have a colonial past, the players who are of African descent have been living in these countries for generations, they are not less French just because their late great-great-grandfather migrated from Africa.  if we're being that literal with races you might as well call me a German too cause Iranians are descendant of Indo Europeans.

Lol okay that wasn’t even the point

But keep fighting the good fight I guess …

Harmonica wrote: For me he has surpassed Paavo Nurmi

Who?

farfan wrote:I know that Messi fans are feeling vindicated and are probably looking to call out some of the critics. I feel  the opposite What Messi did in this WC is exactly what many of us "haters" thought he could, and should have done in previous tournaments. Over the years, Messi fans have told us that our expectations were unrealistic and that it's entirely normal for the GOAT to:

- Have never had any standout knockout stage performances in 4 tournaments.
- Have similar scoring stats as the likes of  Gyan Asamoah.
- Have a group stage performance against Nigeria as his defining world cup moment.
- Be faultless after defeats and have his lack of goal contributions chalked up to his teammates "letting him down".

Well it turned out those expectations weren't unfair or unrealistic after all. Club-level Messi has finally showed up on the world stage.

You gotta take the L and move on here. This win for Argentina, only reinforces what we've been saying the whole time.

**Now disclaimer, I don't think Messi is immune to criticism, nor do I believe his performance in 2010, 2014, 2018 WC go without question completely.**

Messi elimantion have come from Germany x3 (2006, 2010, 2014 (Final)) and France (2018). His team more or less wasn't as good as those mentioned team, maybe 2006 there was a difference between Arg/Ger, but 2010 was a cluster f which came down to Maradona leaving players like Zanetti and Miltao at home and taking a pretty young team, Diego himself had the tactical mind even GL members could match or even better. 2014/2018 was largely due too the quality, and supporting cast not stepping up.

Now lets look at Lionel Scaloni, he has shown more tactical side to him then the pervious Arg managers, he's done a better job installing belief in the team and took them to their first title. One of the big changes he made to the team in the WC22 was drop Lautaro for Alvarez, despite Lautaro having a better goalscoring record and being more experienced, this move changed the dynamic of the team he wasn't afraid to due this due to one having more seniority.

Alvarez did more for Argentina, then Dybala, Aguero, Higuain did and he ended up being the perfect partner for Messi. Alvarez is a rentless presser, he defends from the front, Argentina went 445 minutes without conceeding a goal with Alvarez on the pitch, they only conceeeded in the final via Mbappe PK. He helped pinning the oppostion team back, which allowed Argentina to keep their shape most time, he also picked up for Messi lack of pressing, which pervious Argentina attackers didn't or couldn't do. Not only with his high work rate, but he turned out to be quite clinical and scored vital goals for Argentina. Alverez scored 4 goals this WC, Higuain, Aguero, Dybala, Martinez combined scored 5 goals The first two games against SA and Mex are prime example, the team looked poor, when Scaloni made the decision to play Alverez it changed everything for Argentina and Messi.

Emi Martinez, ever since he become their starting GK they've won 2 of 2 tournments, I don't think I need to say how important he has been for them, won them both the PK shottout against the Dutch and France, his save in the 120 min mark was just as important any goal scored in that final.

di Maria was huge in this final and took a lot of creative burden off Messi.

De Paul started off slowly, but he grew into the tourment as it went on, Enzo also was solid and won YPOT all though I felt Gvardiol should've gotten that award.

Nevertheless I don't see how you believe you were vindicated, when it's quite the opposite. Messi this WC simply had more support from his teammates who stepped up when needed too compared to pervious WC. His supporting cast this WC simply had more of a influence on the team and even his own performance.

Harmonica wrote:

The Madrid One wrote:

Harmonica wrote:The win settled so many things. For me he has been the GOAT footballer for years, now reading the internet it seems to be hard concensus as there's no holes in the CV. Now the debate is open for the overall GOAT athlete. For me he has surpassed Paavo Nurmi as the GOAT athlete.

Random, but what about in Tennis? Djokovic?

I think tennis still has its GOAT debate wide open, many sports has, Gretzky Lemieux, Tyson Ali, Bolt Nurmi etc. All could be at some level called as GOAT athletes.

Gretzky undeniably the GOAT but i sincerely believe Super Mario was better than him. It's a distinction to make between instrinsic qualities and talent vs achievements and records.

In football's case Messi got both generational talent and complete palmares going for him.
With recency bias it's now the normal opinion to consider Messi as the GOAT, he established himself in the no-brainer category. Still a few hipster experts will prove to you that Pelé or Cruyff or Maradona is in fact the GOAT with all due respect those guys belong in folklore.

Winter is Coming wrote:

farfan wrote:I know that Messi fans are feeling vindicated and are probably looking to call out some of the critics. I feel  the opposite What Messi did in this WC is exactly what many of us "haters" thought he could, and should have done in previous tournaments. Over the years, Messi fans have told us that our expectations were unrealistic and that it's entirely normal for the GOAT to:

- Have never had any standout knockout stage performances in 4 tournaments.
- Have similar scoring stats as the likes of  Gyan Asamoah.
- Have a group stage performance against Nigeria as his defining world cup moment.
- Be faultless after defeats and have his lack of goal contributions chalked up to his teammates "letting him down".

Well it turned out those expectations weren't unfair or unrealistic after all. Club-level Messi has finally showed up on the world stage.

You gotta take the L and move on here. This win for Argentina, only reinforces what we've been saying the whole time.

**Now disclaimer, I don't think Messi is immune to criticism, nor do I believe his performance in 2010, 2014, 2018 WC go without question completely.**

Messi elimantion have come from Germany x3 (2006, 2010, 2014 (Final)) and France (2018). His team more or less wasn't as good as those mentioned team, maybe 2006 there was a difference between Arg/Ger, but 2010 was a cluster f which came down to Maradona leaving players like Zanetti and Miltao at home and taking a pretty young team, Diego himself had the tactical mind even GL members could match or even better. 2014/2018 was largely due too the quality, and supporting cast not stepping up.

Now lets look at Lionel Scaloni, he has shown more tactical side to him then the pervious Arg managers, he's done a better job installing belief in the team and took them to their first title. One of the big changes he made to the team in the WC22 was drop Lautaro for Alvarez, despite Lautaro having a better goalscoring record and being more experienced, this move changed the dynamic of the team he wasn't afraid to due this due to one having more seniority.

Alvarez did more for Argentina, then Dybala, Aguero, Higuain did and he ended up being the perfect partner for Messi. Alvarez is a rentless presser, he defends from the front, Argentina went 445 minutes without conceeding a goal with Alvarez on the pitch, they only conceeeded in the final via Mbappe PK. He helped pinning the oppostion team back, which allowed Argentina to keep their shape most time, he also picked up for Messi lack of pressing, which pervious Argentina attackers didn't or couldn't do. Not only with his high work rate, but he turned out to be quite clinical and scored vital goals for Argentina. Alverez scored 4 goals this WC, Higuain, Aguero, Dybala, Martinez combined scored 5 goals The first two games against SA and Mex are prime example, the team looked poor, when Scaloni made the decision to play Alverez it changed everything for Argentina and Messi.

Emi Martinez, ever since he become their starting GK they've won 2 of 2 tournments, I don't think I need to say how important he has been for them, won them both the PK shottout against the Dutch and France, his save in the 120 min mark was just as important any goal scored in that final.

di Maria was huge in this final and took a lot of creative burden off Messi.

De Paul started off slowly, but he grew into the tourment as it went on, Enzo also was solid and won YPOT all though I felt Gvardiol should've gotten that award.

Nevertheless I don't see how you believe you were vindicated, when it's quite the opposite. Messi this WC simply had more support from his teammates who stepped up when needed too compared to pervious WC. His supporting cast this WC simply had more of a influence on the team and even his own performance.

I don't have to take any Ls regarding my assessment of  Messi's previous world cup performances. My point is that juxtaposing this year's performances with ones from past world cups makes some of the claims made by his fans even sillier in retrospect. For example, we had people here and elsewhere insist 2014 was an all-time great performance. They tried  to convince us that dribbles into dead ends were a valid metric for rating an offensive player's contributions and that goals and assists weren't the be all end all . You can find posters making these arguments as recently as the start of the 2022 WC

I never denied that they were variables outside of his control and extenuating circumstances that led to some of  these failures, mainly in 2010 and 2018. 2014 on the other hand was a great team and Messi was truly lethargic in the most crucial games and missed a fair bit of chances too.

To summarize:

2022: Legendary performance, legacy-defining.
2010 & 2018: Unremarkable, mainly due to poor tactics and/or subpar teammates.
2014: Solid team, great group stage contributions, went missing when it mattered, a subpar performance for an all-time great, didn't deserve the golden ball imo.

El Gunner wrote:https://i.servimg.com/u/f69/18/75/76/10/argent10.png

here is the supposed "great" team Messi stepped onto the field with in the 2014 final... please tell me who besides Mascherano was a top class player here  Higuain was supposed to be, but we all know what he did

Everyone in that defensive line + the two midfielders and GK were excellent in that WC. Also both Lavezzi and Perez were significantly better than Messi against the Netherlands

That team didn't have any fancy names that stood out but they were formidable as a unit. Messi didn't carry jack squat to the final.

Yeah I don't know how this result would change the past assessment in any way. As others have said this supporting cast was just better. Defense wasn't as perfect as in 2014, but midfield and attack was just that much better, that it allowed slower Messi to have more impact. I still maintain that 2014 is an alltime performance in WC and I've gone through it and explained it more thorougly than probably anyone has ever gone through trying to research something football related.

Sabella was good coach though, he knew they didn't have team to go all attack, so they went defensive and Messi had to carry all of the attack then. Scaloni built his team to be as flexible as possible, and it showed.

Myesyats wrote:

Harmonica wrote: For me he has surpassed Paavo Nurmi

Who?

"From 1920 to 1934 Nurmi set 22 official world records at distances between 1500 metres and 20 kilometres, and won nine gold and three silver medals in his twelve events in the Olympic Games. At his peak, Nurmi was undefeated at distances from 800 m upwards for 121 races. Throughout his 14-year career, he remained unbeaten in cross country events and the 10,000 m.

They banned him from 1932 Olympics with excuse that he alledgely accepted "sponsor" money from some of his races, never proven, and yet still holds the Olympic record for most gold medals in athletics."

I withdraw my objections to Messi being one of the GOATs, and now agree.
Finally done something proper at a WC.
Legit legend.

Warrior wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

The Madrid One wrote:
Random, but what about in Tennis? Djokovic?

I think tennis still has its GOAT debate wide open, many sports has, Gretzky Lemieux, Tyson Ali, Bolt Nurmi etc. All could be at some level called as GOAT athletes.

Gretzky undeniably the GOAT but i sincerely believe Super Mario was better than him. It's a distinction to make between instrinsic qualities and talent vs achievements and records.

In football's case Messi got both generational talent and complete palmares going for him.
With recency bias it's now the normal opinion to consider Messi as the GOAT, he established himself in the no-brainer category. Still a few hipster experts will prove to you that Pelé or Cruyff or Maradona is in fact the GOAT with all due respect those guys belong in folklore.

Yeah Gretzky has all the records, but Lemieux was on his way to brake those. When he was diagnosed with cancer Lemieux was on the peak of his powers and the way to brake the 92 goal season record. I think I've seen even Gretzky say Lemieux was the best player ever, not exactly GOAT, but still.

farfan wrote:
2022: Legendary performance, legacy-defining.
2010 & 2018: Unremarkable, mainly due to poor tactics and/or subpar teammates.
2014: Solid team, great group stage contributions, went missing when it mattered, a subpar performance for an all-time great, didn't deserve the golden ball imo.

I do actually agree with this. My main issue is people criticizing his 2010 and 2018 performances when it mainly came down to his teammates and coaching. As good as this year's performance was, the 2010 or 2018 Messi would likely have been on another level.

As for 2014, I have no issue with saying his semi and final performances were subpar. Keep in mind Messi came into that world cup off one of the worst seasons of his career. It's not surprising that his performance was more "very good" than "GOAT" even though he had a solid coach and supporting cast.

El Gunner wrote:https://i.servimg.com/u/f69/18/75/76/10/argent10.png

here is the supposed "great" team Messi stepped onto the field with in the 2014 final... please tell me who besides Mascherano was a top class player here  Higuain was supposed to be, but we all know what he did

this is ridiculous. super ridiculous. that's a good team, unless you want xavi iniesta villa puyol on that team. that's a solid squad. i might even argue on paper, with the exception of di maria and maybe the goalie (on paper, not taking into account the result of this tournament) that squad was better than this one messi led to the title. i cant remember, anyone know why di maria wasnt on that squad?

low key di maria has to be a top 5 argentine of all time . messi and diego are clearly better. anybody else, there is a debate to be had.

titosantill wrote:

El Gunner wrote:https://i.servimg.com/u/f69/18/75/76/10/argent10.png

here is the supposed "great" team Messi stepped onto the field with in the 2014 final... please tell me who besides Mascherano was a top class player here  Higuain was supposed to be, but we all know what he did

this is ridiculous. super ridiculous. that's a good team, unless you want xavi iniesta villa puyol on that team. that's a solid squad. i might even argue on paper, with the exception of di maria and maybe the goalie (on paper, not taking into account the result of this tournament) that squad was better than this one messi led to the title. i cant remember, anyone know why di maria wasnt on that squad?

low key di maria has to be a top 5 argentine of all time . messi and diego are clearly better. anybody else, there is a debate to be had.

Di Maria was injured.

My problem with Di Maria has always been that he is very inconsistent. But what he has is insane clutchness, always rises to the occasion.