Re: Are there still people here that think Messi is the best ever?

by jibers Mon 05 Dec 2011, 03:03

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:Messi is still flopping at the NT and we know GOATS have to be successfull in both NT and their clubs in order to be considered GOAT material.

Messi's far from it unless he starts performing for Argentina.
More of a problem with the NT being successful and not really the player being successful with the NT.
Agreed, but that's how it is, sadly. Many great players are undervalued due to them not playing for successful NTs.

Cryuff and Di Stefano are only known to football geeks as ourselves, but to be at Pelé and Maradona level you know you need a World Cup or two. I'd say Xavi, Casillas etc. will in time be better rated than Di Stefano simply because they have Spain's only WC.

What? Any football fan knows of Cruyff and Di Stefano. They're part of the "four greats" nearly everyone cites.

Thre are tier 1 players that most respectful footballers should know tbh. Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruyffs! pele, Maradona, Meazza Garricha and the Kaiser.

by Sushi Master Mon 05 Dec 2011, 05:09

jibers wrote:Looool. Again rubbish.Cruyff is the reason for both Spain and barcelonas current success. Xavi surpassing Di Stefano? Seriously dude.....

Cruyff as a manager or coach doesn't have anything to do as a player. People won't remember him for that, it would be Guardiola and Xavi and Messi. Still a great player, sure. Also keep in mind I live in Latin America. It's all Maradona and Pelé here.

Di Stefano all time greats? hmm

Most people don't know who the hell he is apart from hardcore Madrid fans. Top 4 to me is Maradona, Pelé, Beckenbauer and Cruyff, reputation wise. Then come the rest.

There are a lot of guys people should know, but they don't. Any common football fan barely knows his starting 11 and bench. Keep in mind we're all football geeks here Very Happy

And Xavi will be remembered a thousand times more than Di Stefano. I'm not talking skills or anything or comparing them as players, simply their reputation. Xavi = key Barca player in legendary Barca squad, multiple honors, Spain's only WC, humble and respectful, is in a more recent generation (no one remembers players from the 50s) etc.

by jibers Mon 05 Dec 2011, 06:01

Sushi Master wrote:
jibers wrote:Looool. Again rubbish.Cruyff is the reason for both Spain and barcelonas current success. Xavi surpassing Di Stefano? Seriously dude.....
Cruyff as a manager or coach doesn't have anything to do as a player. People won't remember him for that, it would be Guardiola and Xavi and Messi. Still a great player, sure. Also keep in mind I live in Latin America. It's all Maradona and Pelé here.

Di Stefano all time greats? Most people don't know who the hell he is apart from hardcore Madrid fans. Top 4 to me is Maradona, Pelé, Beckenbauer and Cruyff, reputation wise. Then come the rest.

There are a lot of guys people should know, but they don't. Any common football fan barely knows his starting 11 and bench. Keep in mind we're all football geeks here

And Xavi will be remembered a thousand times more than Di Stefano. I'm not talking skills or anything or comparing them as players, simply their reputation. Xavi = key Barca player in legendary Barca squad, multiple honors, Spain's only WC, humble and respectful, is in a more recent generation (no one remembers players from the 50s) etc.

Rubbish. Most people will remmebr Di STefano. It is called Di stefanos RM, the first team to win the cl and arguably the greatest team of all time. I literally cannot believe what I ma hearing. Allthough personally from what ive seen I think Puskas is better.

by Guest Mon 05 Dec 2011, 06:10

Sushi Master wrote:
jibers wrote:Looool. Again rubbish.Cruyff is the reason for both Spain and barcelonas current success. Xavi surpassing Di Stefano? Seriously dude.....
Cruyff as a manager or coach doesn't have anything to do as a player. People won't remember him for that, it would be Guardiola and Xavi and Messi. Still a great player, sure. Also keep in mind I live in Latin America. It's all Maradona and Pelé here.

Di Stefano all time greats? Most people don't know who the hell he is apart from hardcore Madrid fans. Top 4 to me is Maradona, Pelé, Beckenbauer and Cruyff, reputation wise. Then come the rest.

There are a lot of guys people should know, but they don't. Any common football fan barely knows his starting 11 and bench. Keep in mind we're all football geeks here

And Xavi will be remembered a thousand times more than Di Stefano. I'm not talking skills or anything or comparing them as players, simply their reputation. Xavi = key Barca player in legendary Barca squad, multiple honors, Spain's only WC, humble and respectful, is in a more recent generation (no one remembers players from the 50s) etc.

Oh really?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/2009/02/pele_or_maradonna.html

Who is the greatest player ever - Pele or Maradona? It is a question I get asked all the time. It's a tricky one - and often seems to me a bit like two bald men fighting over a comb.

They were exceptional talents, to be enjoyed rather than compared, especially in the aggressive tone usually employed in the debate.

But the more I think about it the clearer my own answer, for what it's worth, seems to be. They ask Pele or Maradona. I say Di Stefano.

Real Madrid legends Raymond Kopa, Hector Rial, Alfredo di Stefano, Ferenc Puskas and Francisco Gento

The comparisons on playing styles are always difficult, especially when dealing with different eras. But I think I'm on safe ground arguing that there has never been a footballer more influential than Alfredo Di Stefano.

He never played in a World Cup, but club football belongs to him. The world's two leading international club competitions bear his mark - one obviously and directly, the other indirectly.

Di Stefano was the last great product of the golden age of Argentine football, the 1940s, when he starred for River Plate. After the big players strike there in 1948 he was snapped up by Colombia's newly-launched league, and helped get the professional game off the ground there as the star of the great Millonarios side. And in 1953, at the age of 27, he went to Real Madridand changed the course of history.

When the European Cup, as the Champions League was then known, was launched in the 1955/56 season there was no guarantee of success. World War Two was still very recent, though the continent was rebuilding and starting to pull away from post-war austerity. The English authorities were sufficiently suspicious of the whole thing to discourage Chelsea from entering the inaugural version.

In hindsight, such an attitude appears ridiculous - because it meant that English crowds were missing out on the Di Stefano show.

Bobby Charlton got a close look in 1957, when he watched from the stands in the first leg of the semi final, Manchester United away to Real Madrid.
"Who is this man?" was Charlton's instant impression. "He takes the ball from the goalkeeper; he tells the full-backs what to do; wherever he is on the field he is in position to take the ball; you can see his influence on everything that is happening... I had never seen such a complete footballer. It was as though he had set up his own command centre at the heart of the game. He was as strong as he was subtle. The combination of qualities was mesmerising."

All of Europe was going through the same experience. Di Stefano took the game of football up to a level the continent had never seen before. He was not the driving force behind Real Madrid winning the first five European Cups, he was also chiefly responsible for the quick success of the competition. Everyone wanted to see his Real Madrid side.

Just as had happened after Uruguay won the 1924 Olympics in Paris, some South American talent had set off a fever for the game in Europe. If Leeds United wear white, if there is a club in the US called Real Salt Lake, and if the European Cup was an instant hit, then much of the credit belongs to Di Stefano.

Some would even argue that as the leading light in Real's galaxy, Di Stefano helped improve foreign perceptions of Spain, thus encouraging the tourist boom and consequently hastening the country's integration into mainstream Western European politics following the death of the dictator Franco.

That might well be going too far. But I don't think that it is excessive to argue that, without ever intending to, Di Stefano helped bring into life the Copa Libertadores, South America's European Cup equivalent.

There were serious impediments to launching such a competition in the continent of Di Stefano's birth - South America is huge, and transport structure, far from perfect even today, was rudimentary.

An attempt had been made in 1948 to gather the continent's best clubs for a tournament in Chile - Di Stefano played for River Plate - but although it was a success the timing was wrong; the players strike was about to erupt in Argentina, which had the effect of forcing the country into footballing isolation and driving Di Stefano to Colombia.

So there was no follow up, and no thoughts of a competition staged on a home and away basis - until an invitation arrived from Uefa.

Liga de Quito win the 2008 Copa Libertadores

Back on the other side of the Atlantic, the success of the European Cup was making people curious. Could there conceivably be a better team than Real Madrid somewhere out there? Did the continent that produced Di Stefano have any more where that one came from?

Uefa, then, proposed to the South American Federation that an annual game be staged between the champions of the two continents. All South America had to do was find a method of deciding its champion. And thus was born the Copa Libertadores, whose 50th version kicks off in earnest this week.

Without Di Stefano's exploits with Real Madrid it would not have got off the ground so soon.

by Le Samourai Mon 05 Dec 2011, 06:22

Kid Di Stefano was easily the best player on the team of the century.Puskas wasn't better.......amazing left foot, perhaps a better finisher..but di stefano was the complete article..had everything...Puskas was a bit fat and lazy and didn't like to pass.The only reason I can think of why Xavi would be remembered more is more media...internet television etc.

lol no one remember's players from the 50's, Pele started off in the 50's dude.

Pele and Maradona have called him the most complete player of all time.Anyway, whatever alot of people think Cruyff is better and I'm not going to fight it down , I also have no Interest in starting any Beckebauer vs Di stefano nonsense since that would be pointless.

All I can say with certainty is that he was the best player in the world for 6-7 years until a kid called Pele came along.Take that for what you will, when Pele decides to put aside his brazil bias and own personal self obsession and call an Argentine the best player ever, I think it make a pretty big point about what a player he was.

by Sushi Master Mon 05 Dec 2011, 06:24

I'm not doubting Di Stefano's greatness. I know he's great.

What I'm saying is that to a common football fan, most of them don't know him. Take a person off the street and they won't know him at all. Sadly, what most people remember are what most people repeat, and Di Stefano isn't one of them.

If there whole planet were populated by football geeks, alright you got a point. But that isn't the case.

I could say the same about Gerd Mueller or something. Just as great, definite star in his time, but only hardcore Bayern/Germany fans would know him.

It's why 99% of the time it's always between Pele and Maradona.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon 05 Dec 2011, 06:27

I don't know why you think Di Stefano is not known. Take any fan with a modest interest in football and they are bound to know him. You don't need to be a geek to know that.

by Sushi Master Mon 05 Dec 2011, 06:32

Well, you're Argentine so you're bound to know more people who know him, but to most people I've spoken to they don't really know who the hell he is or don't rate him that high.

Definitely I don't hear him thrown around much when it comes to GOAT material. It's like 40% Pelé, 40% Maradona, 10% Cruyff/Beckenbauer, 10% the rest.

Media wise he's pretty null, IMO.

My point is that it's going to be very hard to get into that eternal who's GOAT Pelé/Maradona debate. It's overwhelmingly them two and then come the rest. Maybe Messi or something, depends on how he does throughout the ages.

It's much easier hyping current players due to massive media coverage, TV recordings, Youtube and the like nowadays. We might see many more GOATs in like 50 years.

by Guest Mon 05 Dec 2011, 06:58

All my friend's here in Aus know about Di Stefano, any decent half informed football fan knows players like Di Stefano.....

And all the football fans I know here mostly support EPL teams

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon 05 Dec 2011, 14:17

Everyone know's about Di Stefano because he was apart of the Madrid side that won 5 CL's.....

If you dominate that much on club level its irrelevant what you do in the national team.......

Say Messi win's 5 or more Balon D'or's you seriously think it matters whether he performs for Argentina or not?

He will still remembered as a great regardless, because of how much he achieved at club level.

by Zealous Mon 05 Dec 2011, 14:53

Well does that mean Cristiano gets to be remembered as one of the best ever?

by Doc Mon 05 Dec 2011, 15:07

Speaking of greatest, men who say Magico Gonzalez honestly believe he is the best player ever to grace a football field.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon 05 Dec 2011, 15:35

Zealous wrote:Well does that mean Cristiano gets to be remembered as one of the best ever?

I see Cristiano being remembered in Van Baasten's tier. Then again his career is not over yet, and neither is Messi's.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon 05 Dec 2011, 15:43

Zealous wrote:Well does that mean Cristiano gets to be remembered as one of the best ever?

No, because Messi will be picking the awards lol......

Am ofcourse are talking hypothetically that Messi continues dominating as he has done the last 3 and half years.

Ronaldo will be remembered but unless he starts winning more trophies be it team or personal i dont believe he will be remembered as a alltime great.

by Harmonica Mon 05 Dec 2011, 16:04

Sushi Master wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:Messi is still flopping at the NT and we know GOATS have to be successfull in both NT and their clubs in order to be considered GOAT material.

Messi's far from it unless he starts performing for Argentina.
More of a problem with the NT being successful and not really the player being successful with the NT.
Agreed, but that's how it is, sadly. Many great players are undervalued due to them not playing for successful NTs.

Cryuff and Di Stefano are only known to football geeks as ourselves, but to be at Pelé and Maradona level you know you need a World Cup or two. I'd say Xavi, Casillas etc. will in time be better rated than Di Stefano simply because they have Spain's only WC.

Fifa World Player Of The Century by IFFHS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_Player_of_the_Century

1. Pele 1705 votes (3 WC)
2. Johan Cruijff 1303 votes (0 WC)
3. Franz Beckenbauer 1228 votes (1 WC)
4. Alfredo di Stéfano 1215 votes (0 WC)
5. Diego Armando Maradona votes 1214 (1 WC)

- Enthusiasts: End of Messi's career he will surely be in front of Cruijff, and that's even if he doesn't win WC.
- Normal people: I think Messi already better known and more apreciated than Cruijff.

by Sushi Master Mon 05 Dec 2011, 16:31

jiopsi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:Messi is still flopping at the NT and we know GOATS have to be successfull in both NT and their clubs in order to be considered GOAT material.

Messi's far from it unless he starts performing for Argentina.
More of a problem with the NT being successful and not really the player being successful with the NT.
Agreed, but that's how it is, sadly. Many great players are undervalued due to them not playing for successful NTs.

Cryuff and Di Stefano are only known to football geeks as ourselves, but to be at Pelé and Maradona level you know you need a World Cup or two. I'd say Xavi, Casillas etc. will in time be better rated than Di Stefano simply because they have Spain's only WC.
Fifa World Player Of The Century by IFFHS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_Player_of_the_Century

1. Pele 1705 votes (3 WC)
2. Johan Cruijff 1303 votes (0 WC)
3. Franz Beckenbauer 1228 votes (1 WC)
4. Alfredo di Stéfano 1215 votes (0 WC)
5. Diego Armando Maradona votes 1214 (1 WC)

- Enthusiasts: End of Messi's career he will surely be in front of Cruijff, and that's even if he doesn't win WC.
- Normal people: I think Messi already better known and more apreciated than Cruijff.

Those votes come from very sports oriented people. Strange how Maradona is so underrated there.

But I completely agree with your last statement. Messi will be better known than Cruyff simply because of the massive media exposure, along with having a much nicer trophy cabinet.

Messi is already GOAT material, I never said he was. And Ronaldo will live in his shadow, definitely. He'll be remembered a great, just not GOAT material due to being against Messi. Messi might not be rated as much as Pelé/Maradona because of no WCs and "he never played in a Serie C team" or crap like that.

by Harmonica Mon 05 Dec 2011, 16:38

Sushi Master wrote:
jiopsi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:Messi is still flopping at the NT and we know GOATS have to be successfull in both NT and their clubs in order to be considered GOAT material.

Messi's far from it unless he starts performing for Argentina.
More of a problem with the NT being successful and not really the player being successful with the NT.
Agreed, but that's how it is, sadly. Many great players are undervalued due to them not playing for successful NTs.

Cryuff and Di Stefano are only known to football geeks as ourselves, but to be at Pelé and Maradona level you know you need a World Cup or two. I'd say Xavi, Casillas etc. will in time be better rated than Di Stefano simply because they have Spain's only WC.
Fifa World Player Of The Century by IFFHS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_Player_of_the_Century

1. Pele 1705 votes (3 WC)
2. Johan Cruijff 1303 votes (0 WC)
3. Franz Beckenbauer 1228 votes (1 WC)
4. Alfredo di Stéfano 1215 votes (0 WC)
5. Diego Armando Maradona votes 1214 (1 WC)

- Enthusiasts: End of Messi's career he will surely be in front of Cruijff, and that's even if he doesn't win WC.
- Normal people: I think Messi already better known and more apreciated than Cruijff.
Those votes come from very sports oriented people. Strange how Maradona is so underrated there.

But I completely agree with your last statement. Messi will be better known than Cruyff simply because of the massive media exposure, along with having a much nicer trophy cabinet.

Messi is already GOAT material, I never said he was. And Ronaldo will live in his shadow, definitely. He'll be remembered a great, just not GOAT material due to being against Messi. Messi might not be rated as much as Pelé/Maradona because of no WCs and "he never played in a Serie C team" or crap like that.

To be fair 3-5 is only decided by 14 votes so it's extremely close margins.

Maradona won the Internet based poll by wide margins, garnering 53.6% of the votes against 18.53% for Pelé.

by FennecFox7 Mon 05 Dec 2011, 23:41

jiopsi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:Messi is still flopping at the NT and we know GOATS have to be successfull in both NT and their clubs in order to be considered GOAT material.

Messi's far from it unless he starts performing for Argentina.
More of a problem with the NT being successful and not really the player being successful with the NT.
Agreed, but that's how it is, sadly. Many great players are undervalued due to them not playing for successful NTs.

Cryuff and Di Stefano are only known to football geeks as ourselves, but to be at Pelé and Maradona level you know you need a World Cup or two. I'd say Xavi, Casillas etc. will in time be better rated than Di Stefano simply because they have Spain's only WC.
Fifa World Player Of The Century by IFFHS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_Player_of_the_Century

1. Pele 1705 votes (3 WC)
2. Johan Cruijff 1303 votes (0 WC)
3. Franz Beckenbauer 1228 votes (1 WC)
4. Alfredo di Stéfano 1215 votes (0 WC)
5. Diego Armando Maradona votes 1214 (1 WC)

- Enthusiasts: End of Messi's career he will surely be in front of Cruijff, and that's even if he doesn't win WC.
- Normal people: I think Messi already better known and more apreciated than Cruijff.

No way messi is better then cryuff. Cryuff was ridiculous as a player, IMO the greatest of all time. I've seen loads of his matches my dad recorded. Just a phenomenon.

by Zealous Tue 06 Dec 2011, 03:10

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Zealous wrote:Well does that mean Cristiano gets to be remembered as one of the best ever?

I see Cristiano being remembered in Van Baasten's tier. Then again his career is not over yet, and neither is Messi's.

True. A CL trophy and a Balon D'Or could go a long way for Cris. Who knows maybe even a successful Euro campaign (although that's a big ask lol)

by Lord Awesome Tue 06 Dec 2011, 04:41

jiopsi wrote:

I like this Gif. Razz

by Lord Awesome Tue 06 Dec 2011, 04:50

OT: I think everyone now realizes what I mean by finding a true unbiased opinion.

Anyway, I believe Messi is better that Maradona in terms of skill, but like I said before what Messi lacks that Maradona obvously had is Mentality. Messi still hasn't "lead" any team to victory simply because he is not a leader. At Barca it's litterally Xavi leading the way for the team. At Argentina well.......... do I have to say anymore.

by billionmillion Tue 06 Dec 2011, 13:52

jiopsi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:
jiopsi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:Messi is still flopping at the NT and we know GOATS have to be successfull in both NT and their clubs in order to be considered GOAT material.

Messi's far from it unless he starts performing for Argentina.
More of a problem with the NT being successful and not really the player being successful with the NT.
Agreed, but that's how it is, sadly. Many great players are undervalued due to them not playing for successful NTs.

Cryuff and Di Stefano are only known to football geeks as ourselves, but to be at Pelé and Maradona level you know you need a World Cup or two. I'd say Xavi, Casillas etc. will in time be better rated than Di Stefano simply because they have Spain's only WC.
Fifa World Player Of The Century by IFFHS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_Player_of_the_Century

1. Pele 1705 votes (3 WC)
2. Johan Cruijff 1303 votes (0 WC)
3. Franz Beckenbauer 1228 votes (1 WC)
4. Alfredo di Stéfano 1215 votes (0 WC)
5. Diego Armando Maradona votes 1214 (1 WC)

- Enthusiasts: End of Messi's career he will surely be in front of Cruijff, and that's even if he doesn't win WC.
- Normal people: I think Messi already better known and more apreciated than Cruijff.
Those votes come from very sports oriented people. Strange how Maradona is so underrated there.

But I completely agree with your last statement. Messi will be better known than Cruyff simply because of the massive media exposure, along with having a much nicer trophy cabinet.

Messi is already GOAT material, I never said he was. And Ronaldo will live in his shadow, definitely. He'll be remembered a great, just not GOAT material due to being against Messi. Messi might not be rated as much as Pelé/Maradona because of no WCs and "he never played in a Serie C team" or crap like that.
To be fair 3-5 is only decided by 14 votes so it's extremely close margins.

Maradona won the Internet based poll by wide margins, garnering 53.6% of the votes against 18.53% for Pelé.

Ask allas to make a video about that sig how messi opens space

by Valkyrja Tue 06 Dec 2011, 19:19

R9 says HI !

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