Crimson Special: Statistical Analysis of Creativity between Ronaldo and Messi

I don't think these statistics has showed me anything becouse I'm fully aware he has given up on his selfishness this season but only in smaller games.

I'm sure you've heard the critique that he forces himself into the game and completly flops, and ignores teammates in better positions than him.

We saw a Ronaldo like that in Copa and if he keeps it up then I'd call him a team player becouse he also was very very lazy with his defending before but showed he can run miles for the club if you want him to.

Let's hope he continues like this, it would help him alot as a person and a player imo.

Of course Billion and Jiopsi would enter a Ronaldo v Messi thread, which Messi wins (and the result is presented by arguably the biggest Real Madrid fan on this entire forum) and STILL find something to bitch about!

Myth: Ronaldo contributes with nothing except goals to his team.

BUSTED!

BiasedMilanFan3 wrote:Of course Billion and Jiopsi would enter a Ronaldo v Messi thread, which Messi wins (and the result is presented by arguably the biggest Real Madrid fan on this entire forum) and STILL find something to bitch about!

Yup they obviously did not read what I posted at all especially the part:

Crimson wrote:Ok, read this and understand. I am not posting this to to prove one is better than the other. The purpose of this is to show and possibly change some peoples views that Ronaldo is by and large selfish and not as team player.

By comparing him to Messi which I believe to be one of the best final passes in the game today it shows an accurate representation of just where he stands. No point comparing him to anyone else, as I figured might as well throw him in the deep end and see how he stacks up.

Which is the very first part of the post

paperbackwriter wrote:Myth: Ronaldo contributes with nothing except goals to his team.

BUSTED!

Yup no matter the level of difficulty in the key passes for each player, the undeniable truth is that Ronaldo creates just as many chances for his teams mates as Messi does. No matter what that is undeniable.

The major difference is that Messi's team mates more often so than Ronaldo's finish off his efforts awarding him the assist.

I feel that Ronaldo gets unfairly labelled for his selfishness at times without alot of praise for his creative ability which he does also have.

Crimson wrote:

paperbackwriter wrote:Myth: Ronaldo contributes with nothing except goals to his team.

BUSTED!

Yup no matter the level of difficulty in the key passes for each player, the undeniable truth is that Ronaldo creates just as many chances for his teams mates as Messi does. No matter what that is undeniable.

The major difference is that Messi's team mates more often so than Ronaldo's finish off his efforts awarding him the assist.

I mean, no, LOL. Even your stats disprove this "undeniable" truth.

Yeah, they are more or less on par in key passes, but as you say, key passes is a pass that ends in shot. Madrid is known to shot from outside the box 10 times more than Barça, so most of those key passes from CRistiano are probably an easy pass to Di Maria/Benzema/Ozil/Higuain who shots from outside the box. Not really a chance creation at all.

While in the "through balls" statistic Messi destroys CR.

Great work Crimson. +1

Very nice work, Crimson. I actually don't watch enough of Messi or Ronaldo, one of the reasons I didn't post in your initial thread. Your stats have proven that Ronaldo has the ability to be on par with Messi when it comes to playmaking and I'm sure that was a shock to many (myself included.) The only thing I wanted to point out is something I usually see when Ronaldo is playing, his decision making to me is what limits him from being a better playmaker than Messi. What I mean by this is that he sometimes (in my opinion) holds onto the ball when he should release it and if he improved his vision, I think your stats prove to me that he could be an even better playmaker than Messi.

I've already stated that I don't watch enough to really judge either player, but that's the one thing I've actually picked up on the few times I've watched Ronaldo.

In previous seasons I've watched Messi play a bit more and the few times I've watched him more recently (this season), I see him becoming a bit more selfish and it's something that has turned me off a bit.

Crimson wrote:As you can see Messi contributes to 26.72% of Barcelona's throughballs over the last three seasons. To me that's a mind blowing number and really categorizes his importance in the middle and final third of the pitch to the overall play of Barcelona. And then through that you see he contributes to just over 15% of all the chances created at Barcelona over the last three seasons, again to me that's an astronomical number and goes to validate the importance that Messi is to Barcelona (like we did not already know that).

As for Ronaldo his numbers are not quite as impressive but again I feel that's down to the different role he plays and the different style of play at Real Madrid. Still though he has managed to contribute to almost 12% of all Real Madrid's chances created over the last three seasons, in a team consisting of Guti, Ozil and Di MAria and Xabi, that's not a bad effort. And to go with that over 15% of the teams throughballs over the past three seasons as well. For a player not known for this area in his game that's a pretty big number.

While that Messi number is impressive, I do think those numbers are a bit misleading. I think Messi benefits from playing on a team with players that aren't as quick to play a through-ball and that in my opinion inflates his statistics . On the other-hand and please correct me if I'm wrong (I don't watch enough Madrid) but I'd like to think Ronaldo's teammates are playing through-balls a bit more frequently and that could potentially deflate Ronaldo's statistics.

How many people on the forum are quick to praise the play-makers at Madrid, quite a bit if you asked me. One of the reasons I'm impressed with Ronald hitting nearly 12 percent. As I said earlier, if he tweaked his game just a little bit, I think there would be huge problems for Messi in the future (award wise.)

I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a bit of a Ronaldo hater, but that started years ago when I was an ignorant football fan and saw/heard tons on people saying C Ronaldo > R9 (his attitude doesn't help either.) But these numbers have given me a whole new perspective on his game and I should definitely invest for time in watching him play. I'm never one who likes to comment on things I don't see with my own eyes, so don't hesitate to correct me and educate me on the facts.

I have to say this again, great work Crimson and I appreciate the hard work you've put into this thread. You mean a lot to this forum and I just wanted to put that out there.

THC 10 wrote:Very nice work, Crimson. I actually don't watch enough of Messi or Ronaldo, one of the reasons I didn't post in your initial thread. Your stats have proven that Ronaldo has the ability to be on par with Messi when it comes to playmaking and I'm sure that was a shock to many (myself included.) The only thing I wanted to point out is something I usually see when Ronaldo is playing, his decision making to me is what limits him from being a better playmaker than Messi. What I mean by this is that he sometimes (in my opinion) holds onto the ball when he should release it and if he improved his vision, I think your stats prove to me that he could be an even better playmaker than Messi.

I've already stated that I don't watch enough to really judge either player, but that's the one thing I've actually picked up on the few times I've watched Ronaldo.

In previous seasons I've watched Messi play a bit more and the few times I've watched him more recently (this season), I see him becoming a bit more selfish and it's something that has turned me off a bit.

Crimson wrote:As you can see Messi contributes to 26.72% of Barcelona's throughballs over the last three seasons. To me that's a mind blowing number and really categorizes his importance in the middle and final third of the pitch to the overall play of Barcelona. And then through that you see he contributes to just over 15% of all the chances created at Barcelona over the last three seasons, again to me that's an astronomical number and goes to validate the importance that Messi is to Barcelona (like we did not already know that).

As for Ronaldo his numbers are not quite as impressive but again I feel that's down to the different role he plays and the different style of play at Real Madrid. Still though he has managed to contribute to almost 12% of all Real Madrid's chances created over the last three seasons, in a team consisting of Guti, Ozil and Di MAria and Xabi, that's not a bad effort. And to go with that over 15% of the teams throughballs over the past three seasons as well. For a player not known for this area in his game that's a pretty big number.

While that Messi number is impressive, I do think those numbers are a bit misleading. I think Messi benefits from playing on a team with players that aren't as quick to play a through-ball and that in my opinion inflates his statistics . On the other-hand and please correct me if I'm wrong (I don't watch enough Madrid) but I'd like to think Ronaldo's teammates are playing through-balls a bit more frequently and that could potentially deflate Ronaldo's statistics.

How many people on the forum are quick to praise the play-makers at Madrid, quite a bit if you asked me. One of the reasons I'm impressed with Ronald hitting nearly 12 percent. As I said earlier, if he tweaked his game just a little bit, I think there would be huge problems for Messi in the future (award wise.)

I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a bit of a Ronaldo hater, but that started years ago when I was an ignorant football fan and saw/heard tons on people saying C Ronaldo > R9 (his attitude doesn't help either.) But these numbers have given me a whole new perspective on his game and I should definitely invest for time in watching him play. I'm never one who likes to comment on things I don't see with my own eyes, so don't hesitate to correct me and educate me on the facts.

I have to say this again, great work Crimson and I appreciate the hard work you've put into this thread. You mean a lot to this forum and I just wanted to put that out there.

Thanks a lot THC

Fantastic work Crimson, Excellent analysis.

Kudo's to the poster for making the thread it must have taken a long time.

I do have a couple questions.

1) Is it possible to do the same analysis for Clasico's over the last 3 years and see how different the numbers are? Not just in La Liga but all the games, I ask because over the last 3 years there has been an unusual amount of games between the two teams and since you are comparing the two against each other wouldn't head to head be the best judge?

2) I like that you used a bunch of different categories as people can generally take a statistic and make it prove there argument when a lot more goes into what there talking about.

With that being said, if all the categories are so close then why is Messi so far ahead in assists? I mean something doesn't add up especially since the two teams I would think but I didn't look it up score about the same amount of goals each year.

By my count in the league only, Messi has 36 assists to Ronaldo's 23 something's gotta give, right? And since the goals are generally the same year in and year out it can't be the finishing.

3) In your other thread you used "selfishness" as a category and every Madrid fan except 1 or 2 just totally ignored my post about the two playing defense as that is half of the game.

Where Messi totally outshine's Ronaldo in this area and IMO is Ronaldo's most "selfish" part of his game as he will track back sometimes when he loses the ball or makes a mistake but when someone else does he rarely ever helps out and is more prone to shout at his own player then help him defensivley. He is better this year but still not good and since this is a 3 year comparison I would say over the last 3 years Ronaldo is one of the most defensivly selfish players in Europe where as Messi is one of the more selfless forwards in Europe when it comes to defense.

Again, KUDOS for doing all the work, it is very interesting.

dnmac4 wrote:Kudo's to the poster for making the thread it must have taken a long time.

I do have a couple questions.

1) Is it possible to do the same analysis for Clasico's over the last 3 years and see how different the numbers are? Not just in La Liga but all the games, I ask because over the last 3 years there has been an unusual amount of games between the two teams and since you are comparing the two against each other wouldn't head to head be the best judge?

2) I like that you used a bunch of different categories as people can generally take a statistic and make it prove there argument when a lot more goes into what there talking about.

With that being said, if all the categories are so close then why is Messi so far ahead in assists? I mean something doesn't add up especially since the two teams I would think but I didn't look it up score about the same amount of goals each year.

By my count in the league only, Messi has 36 assists to Ronaldo's 23 something's gotta give, right? And since the goals are generally the same year in and year out it can't be the finishing.

3) In your other thread you used "selfishness" as a category and every Madrid fan except 1 or 2 just totally ignored my post about the two playing defense as that is half of the game.

Where Messi totally outshine's Ronaldo in this area and IMO is Ronaldo's most "selfish" part of his game as he will track back sometimes when he loses the ball or makes a mistake but when someone else does he rarely ever helps out and is more prone to shout at his own player then help him defensivley. He is better this year but still not good and since this is a 3 year comparison I would say over the last 3 years Ronaldo is one of the most defensivly selfish players in Europe where as Messi is one of the more selfless forwards in Europe when it comes to defense.

Again, KUDOS for doing all the work, it is very interesting.

It would be possible to do the clasico's, except for the CdR as statistics aren't recorded for the CdR in the same way as other games by Opta as it is seen as not in demand enough.

As for your second point it comes down to Barcelona being more efficient in front of goal. If you look at Ozil he created over 100 chances for his team mates last season but his assists simply did not reflect that.

We have far more shots per game than any other team over the last 3 seasons something like 19.93 shots per game compared to Barcelona's 15.84 yet in 3 seasons (97 games) we have only managed to score 21 more goals.

I agree Ronaldo still has work to do in this area but he is getting better, but I also feel thats what makes him the player that he is, the arrogance and the ego. Alot of top class athletes have the same mind set.

and ty for the kind words

Utterly biased statistics as usual. They don't take into account that Messi sucks arse with Argentina! + Ronaldo should get statistics in his favor just for his immaculate looks. Not to mention that La Liga defenders suck!!!

In all seriousness though, I applaud the work you've put into this.

Senor Penguin wrote:Utterly biased statistics as usual. They don't take into account that Messi sucks arse with Argentina! + Ronaldo should get statistics in his favor just for his immaculate looks. Not to mention that La Liga defenders suck!!!

In all seriousness though, I applaud the work you've put into this.

If we include Messi with Argentina, we would do the same with Ronaldo and it doesnt look very good either. Ronaldo is playing against the same defenders no?

Great work no doubt.. but there is too much bias !

These numbers show nothing, i NEVER saw Cristiano do a single pass or an assist at realmadrid that could be compared to Messi's passes/assists..
Just comparing them, is laughable.. [ note, i don't miss a single match for cristiano since he joined real madrid, so i know what i'm talking about].. most Cristiano's passes, are simple [Obvious passes], while Messi has to play a pass through 5, 6 or some times between 8 opponents !!
There is NO WAY u can compare these 2 players in playmaking skills/vision.
[ anyway, Dani explained it very well].

Can u give me a video where Cristiano plays JUST one single assist in the same quality of Messi's assists?

Key Passes =/= Vision !!

for example [ some Stats from La Liga this season]:

~ Alves has 40 key passes this season, Average of 2 per game.
5/13 Through Balls [38.4%].
~ Xavi has 46 key passes [avg: 2.6], 12/42 Through balls [28%].
~Messi has 48 key passes [avg: 2.3], 31/88 Through balls [35%].

~ On the other hand, Cristiano has 34 key passes [1.6/match], 12/27 Through Balls [ 44.4%].

Is this Logical [Through balls]: Cristiano>Alves>Messi>Xavi?
U have too add the degree of difficulty..
Cristiano and Alves passes are MUCH MUCH easier than Messi's or Xavi's passes..

---------------------
~Example [ on some of Messi's assists in last 2 seasons]:





How can u even compare (O_o)?



=====================
I have a question for the mods, why jiopsi's thread was moved to the "My Right-Back Is Better Than Yours" , in terms of quality and hard work.. its at the level of this thread!!

I'm talking about this threadbtw: https://goallegacy.forumotion.com/t16735p54-why-is-penaldo-compared-to-messi-rather-than-rvp-gomez-huntelaar-etc

if u look at some of the comments and replies in that thread, the hate etc.. its not even funny !!lol
some are talking about neg rep? look at jiopsi's thread !!!
>>>Hypocrites !!!<<<

Then Messi should try doing it the easy way.

I just saw this thread, again jiopsi getting bashed, although AGAIN in terms of quality, his thread is too gd.. on the other hand, a stats thread for cristiano/madrid.. crimson is getting praised !! FUNNY PEOPLE [ don't know what to say] !!

https://goallegacy.forumotion.com/t16817-what-does-1-and-04-mean-with-messi-and-cronaldo

Khaled, he isn't saying CR is the more creative player, only that CR's critique (he is selfish, can't pass etc.) is unfair (and he compared him to a player he sees is a creative, non selfish one)

To say Ronaldo is not capable of highly difficult assists is laughable at best

I already showed that Messi plays more throughballs due to his play position and playstyle and noted it was more difficult to complete a proper throughball?? I don't understand what more do you want?

For those that refuse to believe:

Se7en wrote:Khaled, he isn't saying CR is the more creative player, only that CR's critique (he is selfish, can't pass etc.) is unfair (and he compared him to a player he sees is a creative, non selfish one)

glad someone can read lol

Crimson wrote:To say Ronaldo is not capable of highly difficult assists is laughable at best

I already showed that Messi plays more throughballs due to his play position and playstyle and noted it was more difficult to complete a proper throughball?? I don't understand what more do you want?

For those that refuse to believe:

Crimson, Ronaldo pulled that pass out of a magic hat. What we are saying is that he is not capable of delivering that kind of passes with consistency. Robinho can score goals, sure, but he is an horrible finisher nonetheless. Messi is a great passer in that regard because he consistently pulls out difficult passes, ronaldo does not do the same.

Khaledbarca wrote:Great work no doubt.. but there is too much bias !

These numbers show nothing, i NEVER saw Cristiano do a single pass or an assist at realmadrid that could be compared to Messi's passes/assists..
Just comparing them, is laughable.. [ note, i don't miss a single match for cristiano since he joined real madrid, so i know what i'm talking about].. most Cristiano's passes, are simple [Obvious passes], while Messi has to play a pass through 5, 6 or some times between 8 opponents !!
There is NO WAY u can compare these 2 players in playmaking skills/vision.
[ anyway, Dani explained it very well].

Can u give me a video where Cristiano plays JUST one single assist in the same quality of Messi's assists?

Key Passes =/= Vision !!

for example [ some Stats from La Liga this season]:

~ Alves has 40 key passes this season, Average of 2 per game.
5/13 Through Balls [38.4%].
~ Xavi has 46 key passes [avg: 2.6], 12/42 Through balls [28%].
~Messi has 48 key passes [avg: 2.3], 31/88 Through balls [35%].

~ On the other hand, Cristiano has 34 key passes [1.6/match], 12/27 Through Balls [ 44.4%].

Is this Logical [Through balls]: Cristiano>Alves>Messi>Xavi?
U have too add the degree of difficulty..
Cristiano and Alves passes are MUCH MUCH easier than Messi's or Xavi's passes..

---------------------
~Example [ on some of Messi's assists in last 2 seasons]:





How can u even compare (O_o)?



=====================
I have a question for the mods, why jiopsi's thread was moved to the "My Right-Back Is Better Than Yours" , in terms of quality and hard work.. its at the level of this thread!!

I'm talking about this threadbtw: https://goallegacy.forumotion.com/t16735p54-why-is-penaldo-compared-to-messi-rather-than-rvp-gomez-huntelaar-etc

if u look at some of the comments and replies in that thread, the hate etc.. its not even funny !!lol
some are talking about neg rep? look at jiopsi's thread !!!
>>>Hypocrites !!!<<<

Funny you should mention bias. Your argument is filled with it (not to say you don't make some points.) But lots of variables come into play when analyzing these statistics and that's why the thread was created, so we can have a mature conversation on the topic at hand.

What makes your opinion so much greater than everyone else's? Get off your high horse and don't speak of bias when your post is filled with it. Crimson's original post is filled with stats, nothing more, nothing less. I can't say the same for your post, you don't seem to understand that your post is just as much opinion as anyone else's. It'd probably be best if you would just make a post with your points and let the rest of us read them, why must you go the extra mile; a poster like yourself shouldn't have to resort to those type of tactics.

It's like I said earlier, I don't watch much of both players, but I do understand Barcelona's system and feel I can speak on that. I feel as if both players are allowed freedom, but it's not quite the same type of freedom. In my opinion Messi finds himself in more situations where he is deeper in the midfield , this leads me to believe he had more opportunities of playing different sorts of through balls (similar to ones you brought up in your post.) What you don't seem to realize is that you're also making a debate for Ronaldo in your post; Ronaldo doesn't have the same vision or decision making as Messi, yet his statistics are still up there with Messi and in some cases he seems more efficient (although Franchise's post might have explained why that is.)

P.S. jiopsi brings a lot of the hate upon himself; perhaps if he carried himself differently he wouldn't recieve as much "hate." But this is Crimson's thread and I'd prefer not to go more off-topic than that.

If Khaled read this part:

"Ok, read this and understand. I am not posting this to to prove one is better than the other. The purpose of this is to show and possibly change some peoples views that Ronaldo is by and large selfish and not as team player."

Then the need to be all touchy would not have come to pass. I understand what the Crims is trying to portray. What is it you ask? That Cristiano Ronaldo is not as selfish as one thinks and not as one dimensional as one perceives. It's a good take on something that even I pretty much have my concerns with.

And I actually like Ronaldo. Once you see it as that then you'll be fine and not be all sensitive as good old Khaled is...

Doc wrote:If Khaled read this part:

"Ok, read this and understand. I am not posting this to to prove one is better than the other. The purpose of this is to show and possibly change some peoples views that Ronaldo is by and large selfish and not as team player."

Then the need to be all touchy would not have come to pass. I understand what the Crims is trying to portray. What is it you ask? That Cristiano Ronaldo is not as selfish as one thinks and not as one dimensional as one perceives. It's a good take on something that even I pretty much have my concerns with.

And I actually like Ronaldo. Once you see it as that then you'll be fine and not be all sensitive as good old Khaled is...

Do you think these stats will change people's mind? its hard work to watch 140 games (altough i dont believe it) and make these stats. but does it really worth? nobody i think changed their opinions. according same user's previous stats bale was better key passer than all barcelona midfielders and attackers

i thanked for crimson only for his hard work (and i believe majority did so) but i think jiopsi's stats are more accurate and reasonable and shows something that everyone agrees. Only problem is that jiopsi has no skills or experience to announce his stats like a big event and get thanks from people, i believe with time he will develop

billionmillion wrote:i thanked for crimson only for his hard work (and i believe majority did so) but i think jiopsi's stats are more accurate and reasonable and shows something that everyone agrees. Only problem is that jiopsi has no skills or experience to announce his stats like a big event and get thanks from people, i believe with time he will develop

Bingo. Jiopsi tries trolling with stats. Whereas Crim debunks the myths about Ronny. Simple.

thats what jiopsi lacks. he should not troll while making stat threads.instead he should act like a tired saint man who just neutralized a nuclear bomb.

This is crimson's face when he makes stat threads :vagi:

and this is jiopsi's face when he makes stat threads - :lucas: