Re: 2011/2012 Arsenal Prediction Game

by fatman123 Thu May 17, 2012 11:28 am

Spider wrote:lol Thanks a lot fatman , i don't know if you know this but this " Hopefully " will be my second win in a row of this tournament :king:

spider winning back to back championships :bow:

shame those slackers in the chelsea section gave up, i was ahead by a long way

or maybe am i the winner by defualt hmm

by beatrixasdfghjk. Thu May 17, 2012 11:34 am

fatman123 wrote:
Spider wrote:lol Thanks a lot fatman , i don't know if you know this but this " Hopefully " will be my second win in a row of this tournament :king:

spider winning back to back championships

shame those slackers in the chelsea section gave up, i was ahead by a long way

or maybe am i the winner by defualt

Bleh, last season's prediction league was a mess Razz

.

by Forza Fri May 18, 2012 6:03 am

I see no reason to enforce this ridiculously high standard where a difference of 1 second on only one website could determine this title race.

Looking back over this thread, there is no evidence to suggest that Arsenal.com was the official timekeeping website for this prediction competition.

Furthermore, other websites, such as whoscored.com, have been regularly relied upon for information in similar circumstances. That website would suggest that my client has won this particular prediction.

Whilst Arsenal's official website does provide one account of the time a goal was scored, it is most certainly not the exclusive source of information for this competition. Therefore, I move for any evidence from this website to be heard in conjunction with other sources.

It would simply be unconscionable to and highly emotionally damaging to my client if these rules were applied inconsistently to his detriment.

I trust that in the spirit of fairness and Gunnership, the defendants will agree to settle to avoid a lengthy and costly appeals process.

Good day gents. :coffee:

by mani88 Fri May 18, 2012 6:07 am

Forza Rossoneri wrote:I see no reason to enforce this ridiculously high standard where a difference of 1 second on only one website could determine this title race.

Looking back over this thread, there is no evidence to suggest that Arsenal.com was the official timekeeping website for this prediction competition.

Furthermore, other websites, such as whoscored.com, have been regularly relied upon for information in similar circumstances. That website would suggest that my client has won this particular prediction.

Whilst Arsenal's official website does provide one account of the time a goal was scored, it is most certainly not the exclusive source of information for this competition. Therefore, I move for any evidence from this website to be heard in conjunction with other sources.

It would simply be unconscionable to and highly emotionally damaging to my client if these rules were applied inconsistently to his detriment.

I trust that in the spirit of fairness and Gunnership, the defendants will agree to settle to avoid a lengthy and costly appeals process.

Good day gents.

by Forza Fri May 18, 2012 6:14 am

mani88 wrote:
Forza Rossoneri wrote:I see no reason to enforce this ridiculously high standard where a difference of 1 second on only one website could determine this title race.

Looking back over this thread, there is no evidence to suggest that Arsenal.com was the official timekeeping website for this prediction competition.

Furthermore, other websites, such as whoscored.com, have been regularly relied upon for information in similar circumstances. That website would suggest that my client has won this particular prediction.

Whilst Arsenal's official website does provide one account of the time a goal was scored, it is most certainly not the exclusive source of information for this competition. Therefore, I move for any evidence from this website to be heard in conjunction with other sources.

It would simply be unconscionable to and highly emotionally damaging to my client if these rules were applied inconsistently to his detriment.

I trust that in the spirit of fairness and Gunnership, the defendants will agree to settle to avoid a lengthy and costly appeals process.

Good day gents.

Costly for the reputation of this noble and amicable competition. :coffee:

by fatman123 Fri May 18, 2012 7:27 am

Forza Rossoneri wrote:I see no reason to enforce this ridiculously high standard where a difference of 1 second on only one website could determine this title race.

Looking back over this thread, there is no evidence to suggest that Arsenal.com was the official timekeeping website for this prediction competition.

Furthermore, other websites, such as whoscored.com, have been regularly relied upon for information in similar circumstances. That website would suggest that my client has won this particular prediction.

Whilst Arsenal's official website does provide one account of the time a goal was scored, it is most certainly not the exclusive source of information for this competition. Therefore, I move for any evidence from this website to be heard in conjunction with other sources.

It would simply be unconscionable to and highly emotionally damaging to my client if these rules were applied inconsistently to his detriment.

I trust that in the spirit of fairness and Gunnership, the defendants will agree to settle to avoid a lengthy and costly appeals process.

Good day gents.

thats a right pretty speach, Forza but id like to point everyones attention to a few key things:

Firstly Forza you refered to the "reputation of this noble and amicable competition" although i pose a question to the Arsenal fans, what wold be more detrimental to the reputation of this competition, deciding the result of the competition based upon arguments from external parties and disregarding the information posted on your own clubs official website, or using the same unform measure used throughout the competition (common sense) and knowing that Beatrix's prediciton was out my a few seconds means his prediction was incorrect

Moreover evidence has already been presented by the opposition which proves their argument incorrect. A youtube clip posted earlier in this thread (by Forza) shows a replay of the goal in question which infact shows the goal was scored outside of Beatrix's prediciton. Not only that but when replays are shown the clock shown during the replay is infact the clock shown at real time in the game, not the clock that shows the time the goal was actually scored. ie if a goal was scored on 2:00 a replay may show 2:20-2:25 as the replay does not show the clock from when the goal was scored. This point has been highlighted and discussed by the highly reliable Barcakizz

BarcaKizz wrote:
Forza Rossoneri wrote:Don't listen to this amateur advice... Only the knowledge of a student mid-way through their law degree can provide the unique perspective you need to argue your case how you want it.

Show me the money.

Thats a replay... the timer still goes during the replays.

:vagi:

https://goallegacy.forumotion.com/t17804p918-the-official-talk-about-whatever-thread#576739

to quote you again Forza you said "where a difference of 1 second on only one website could determine this title race" by saying this you have admitted that Beatrix's prediction was incorrect, even if ti be by the smallest of margins it was incorrect, and youve said it yourself. You then go on to say that "oher websites, such as whoscored.com, have been regularly relied upon for information in similar circumstances. That website would suggest that my client has won this particular prediction". So by saying this your asking Arsenal fans to decide ther competition using a time which, by your own admitance, is incorrect, doesnt seem right to me

Finally if the Arsenal fans choose not to use the records kept by their own official website then i ask that they use the nest most reliabel website, the premier league website. If you follow the first link provided bellow and click on the ball symbolising Arsenals first goal youll see the goal is recorded at 53:14, a full 1min 46 seconds earlier then the lowest possible acceptable score provided by beatrix.
For further reinforcment, follow the second link provided to the official WBA website which records the goal in question at 54 minutes, a full minute before the 55 predicted by Beatrix
http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/matches/2011-2012/epl.html/west-brom-vs-arsenal
http://www.wba.co.uk/page/MatchReport/0,,10366~59127,00.html

Honestly i think its time this circus is put to rest and we all come to our senses are realise Beatrix's prediction was close, but out by the smallest of margins, and that for the second season running, Spider is Arsenals prediction champion

by Forza Fri May 18, 2012 8:45 am

Time to deal with this. These arguments are, quite frankly, a façade. Seemingly logical on the face of it, but exposed as thin and weak if one takes a moment to step back and analyse their true merit.

fatman123 wrote:Firstly Forza you refered to the "reputation of this noble and amicable competition" although i pose a question to the Arsenal fans, what wold be more detrimental to the reputation of this competition, deciding the result of the competition based upon arguments from external parties…

Is fatman an external party? Yes. So, why listen to him? A good question, I think. Indeed, I am an external party, but you can trust in the fact that I am the ideal person to deal with this situation as I am appropriately distanced from any conflict of interest which may arise. If anything, this would enhance the accountability of the competition. May I pose the idea that my learned colleague, fatman, has the ulterior motive of ensuring that he is the only Australian to win a prediction contest on the forum this season? Unfortunate, but perhaps all too true, gentlemen.

fatman123 wrote:…and disregarding the information posted on your own clubs official website, or using the same unform measure used throughout the competition (common sense)

This is a clear misinterpretation of the facts. There is no evidence to suggest that there was any uniform measure for timekeeping in this competition. Let alone, the Arsenal club website. Furthermore, I have made no indication that the information provided by the aforementioned website should be disregarded. Conversely, it should be included, but only together with the other reputable websites that I have suggested previously.

fatman123 wrote:Moreover evidence has already been presented by the opposition which proves their argument incorrect. A youtube clip posted earlier in this thread (by Forza) shows a replay of the goal in question which infact shows the goal was scored outside of Beatrix's prediciton. Not only that but when replays are shown the clock shown during the replay is infact the clock shown at real time in the game, not the clock that shows the time the goal was actually scored. ie if a goal was scored on 2:00 a replay may show 2:20-2:25 as the replay does not show the clock from when the goal was scored.

There is nothing clear about this evidence other than its inconclusiveness. This actually why was why it was originally posted. In a criminal court, there is a standard of reasonable doubt. A person must be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt or presumed innocent. Simply put, this video only serves to create uncertainty. There is no solid proof either way that the goal was scored a second before or after that minute mark. Of course, the replay is shown at a delayed time, but it tells us nothing of the length of the delay before it was shown.

fatman123 wrote:This point has been highlighted and discussed by the highly reliable Barcakizz

This is foolish to say the least. I would not normally question the reliability of BarcaKizz, however, these are not matters which he has researched at all other than viewing the replay video. It would be shameful to let a Barcelona supporter’s opinion dictate the outcome of this Arsenal fans’ prediction contest, especially when no research has been done to inform that opinion. Of course, my points are researched on the behalf of beatrix.

fatman123 wrote:to quote you again Forza you said "where a difference of 1 second on only one website could determine this title race" by saying this you have admitted that Beatrix's prediction was incorrect, even if ti be by the smallest of margins it was incorrect, and youve said it yourself.

The use of the conditional tense, the word ‘could’, implies possibility. The title race could be decided by as little as one second, but I have not implied that is the case. It is obviously my argument that the goal fell within the time that Beatrix nominated, and therefore, he should be declared a joint winner of the competition.

fatman123 wrote:Finally if the Arsenal fans choose not to use the records kept by their own official website then i ask that they use the nest most reliabel website, the premier league website. If you follow the first link provided bellow and click on the ball symbolising Arsenals first goal youll see the goal is recorded at 53:14, a full 1min 46 seconds earlier then the lowest possible acceptable score provided by beatrix.

Finally, you resort to using the EPL website. Whilst this website has not been used as the standard for this competition, I agree on its reliability. Nevertheless, it is my duty to point out that you have misled the people of this forum in your statement. What the website actually says is that corner was won at 53:14. Robin van Persie takes the corner even later and the goal actually comes significantly later again.

~

Ultimately, interpreting this occurrence in the way that fatman has argued would surely sour the competition for years to come. The only way that I could see his theories working is if every single decision to allocate points over the duration of the competition were debated again thoroughly as this one has been and checked again against a comprehensive database fo timing websites. I understand that this may sound unnecessary to Arsenal fans, but to agree with fatman would set a dangerous precedent and lead to awful implications for the future of the competiton and harmony in the Arsenal section. I implore you to find the graciousness to extend your courtesy to your fellow Gunner in Beatrix, and celebrate together, not for lawyers and arguments, but for the sake of all that you have come to love about your club and this community.

Thank you for your consideration gentlemen.

by beatrixasdfghjk. Fri May 18, 2012 8:47 am

53:14?
~~Their clocks were obviously wrong then...~~
EDIT: My lawyer has a better theory.

The first minute is between 00:00 and 00:59, and thus the fifty-fifth minute is between 54:00 and 54:59. I maintain the goal was scored in the fifty-fifth minute. My lawyer displaying a clip of the goal in no way suggests that it was not scored in that minute, nor does him stating that one second could decide the title race contradict his argument: he is simply highlighting the magnitude of that second.

I believe that of greater import than consistency, is justice. Fundamentally, this is why FIFA is implementing goal line technology, and possibly further video review systems, to maintain a high standard of accuracy within major decisions and prevent controversy, as has occurred here.

It is plain to see that the Premier League website has made an unconscionable mistake on their reporting of Mister Laurent Koscielny's goal time, and has given this incorrect time to both the official Arsenal and West Bromwich Albion timekeepers.

Also, the defendant's attorney clearly has trouble formulating a coherent sentence (no offence Razz

), and has no qualifications other than a course in high school legal studies. I believe that his defence should be disregarded.

Oh wait, Forza responded first Razz

.

by Forza Fri May 18, 2012 8:51 am

I will take this opportunity to say that I concur with my client's arguments, many of which I have expressed on his behalf in my earlier post.

In addition, I agree with his suggestion to take into account the coherency of the defendant's sentences, which made that thing damn hard to read.

by mani88 Fri May 18, 2012 6:27 pm

I downloaded the game. The goal was scored at 53:59. :coffee:

by Raptorgunner Fri May 18, 2012 7:57 pm

What the hell is going on here? I am so lost.

by Sina Fri May 18, 2012 8:06 pm

DID I Finish Top4? Razz

by Spider Fri May 18, 2012 8:56 pm

mani88 wrote:I downloaded the game. The goal was scored at 53:59.

well done mani , Fatman that post was brilliant Cool

beatrixasdfghjk you lost :coffee:

by fatman123 Fri May 18, 2012 11:45 pm

undefined

Spider wrote:
mani88 wrote:I downloaded the game. The goal was scored at 53:59.

well done mani , Fatman that post was brilliant

beatrixasdfghjk you lost

I was going to refute your futile argument Forza but clearly my surprise witness has said all that needs to be said
Congrats spider, not only Arsenals number one tipster but also a humble victor

by beatrixasdfghjk. Fri May 18, 2012 11:50 pm

Please wait for my lawyer to contact you.

by Raptorgunner Sat May 19, 2012 2:08 am

Can someone please fill me in what is going on? I swear I went through all you guys post and have no Idea what is going on here, why is it taking so long. scratch

by fatman123 Sat May 19, 2012 2:08 am

beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Please wait for my lawyer to contact you.

enough of this, jayp its time to crown the competitions true winner and deserved winner, spider

by Forza Sat May 19, 2012 2:36 am

It's not over until the fatman sings...

I move to strike mani88's evidence from the record. At the time of the game and in the immediate aftermath, beatrix was thought to have won the prediction. The time to change this decision is now over. As precedent, I cite every other game this season, all of which have not been subject to such intense and drawn-out deliberation and scrutiny. Hence, whether the result is correct or not is now irrelevant, there are common law limitations that must be adhered to. To draw an analogy, it's like a referee wrongly awarding a penalty in a game. What's done is done, at the time it appeared to be correct, so for the sake of jurisprudence, appropriate legal conduct and the strict and correct application of administrative and procedural principles to this scenario, I must object to the presentation of mani88's evidence to the court.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a 'surprise witness'. The defence was not given any information about the witness and it is a requirement of any but the most dubious and corrupt courts that evidence must be supplied to the defence in advance for them to be given the opportunity to analyse and refute it. It is far too late now though.

Ultimately, my client has been a victim of FIFA's stubbornness. Goal-line technology may well have shown that my client had the extra second needed to get his prediction within range and become joint winner of this competition. The sad thing is that we will probably never know. In legal terms, the contract which was created by my client entering into the competition was frustrated (it's a technical legal term making the contract void) by external, unforeseeable events.

Right now, this court has a choice... they can become the new FIFA or, just maybe, you can all transcend their filthy, rotten, corrupted, disgusting and sickeningly ignorant ways to become an exemplary model of the the ideal decision makers that the football world deserves. I am sure, that as Arsenal supporters you are more than up to the task. Phoenix Wright is counting on you...

2011/2012 Arsenal Prediction Game - Page 8 2208-1785017026

That's right, I'm pointing at you, noble Gunner!
Join me in the quest for JUSTICE!

by fatman123 Sat May 19, 2012 2:58 am

Forza Rossoneri wrote:[justify]I move to strike mani88's evidence from the record. At the time of the game and in the immediate aftermath, beatrix was thought to have won the prediction. The time to change this decision is now over. As precedent, I cite every other game this season, all of which have not been subject to such intense and drawn-out deliberation and scrutiny. Hence, whether the result is correct or not is now irrelevant, there are common law limitations that must be adhered to. To draw an analogy, it's like a referee wrongly awarding a penalty in a game. What's done is done, at the time it appeared to be correct, so for the sake of jurisprudence, appropriate legal conduct and the strict and correct application of administrative and procedural principles to this scenario, I must object to the presentation of mani88's evidence to the court.

common law :facepalm:

for those who dont know, common law refers to laws made as a result of a judges interpretation of leagislation. After this interpretation is made a precedent is set and all other similar cases follow that ruling.
Now that system is all well and good, but id like to pont out that:
a) nobody in the forum is a judge, thus common law cant be made, and
b) even if we did have a judge, this is an international forum, which countires legislation do we abide to?

and to quote you again Forza "every other game this season, all of which have not been subject to such intense and drawn-out deliberation and scrutiny." if you choose to use this as a precedent thats fine, but then if we arent going to scrutinise this game then all measuring sticks that have been used throughout the competition thus far (PL website, Arsenal.com, oppostion teams website) all point to a victory to spider

to quote you again Forza 'At the time of the game and in the immediate aftermath, beatrix was thought to have won the prediction. The time to change this decision is now over."
so you say because beatrix thought he won and now its a few days after he thought he won, he has to win? at the time of the event spider thought he won too, so does that mean spider has to win because he thought he won? what if someone else in the competition thought they won, does that mean they have to win. Now to quote Beatrix

beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:We're tied, assuming I win my appeal...

he used the phrase assuming i win my appeal not when i win my appeal, people who are confident dont assume, they know. Moreover if he was so confident, why has he requested you, someone with formal training argue on his behalf, if he were so sure that he'd won surely he could prove that point himself. and as a result of that, i have had to inject myself in the situation to level the playing field.
moreover beatrix moved for an appeal before a judgemtn over the winner was even made, would someone who is confident theyre correct move to appeal a judgment that hasnt even been made yet?
i say no
i say the move made by beatrix represents someone clutching at straws, desperate to hold on the small glimmer of remaining hope that would see them crowned champion. Unfortunately beatrix i cant give you the title, but here, have a straw

2011/2012 Arsenal Prediction Game - Page 8 Clutching_at_straws

2011/2012 Arsenal Prediction Game - Page 8 Clutching_at_straws

Forza Rossoneri wrote:Furthermore, there is no such thing as a 'surprise witness'. The defence was not given any information about the witness and it is a requirement of any but the most dubious and corrupt courts that evidence must be supplied to the defence in advance for them to be given the opportunity to analyse and refute it. It is far too late now though.

this int the first time you've seen footage of the goal being scored before the 55th minute, may i remind evveryone that you yourself posted a video of the goal in question being scored before the 55th minute, all the evidence provided by mani88 does is reaffirm an argument presented by you, which supports my stance

Forza Rossoneri wrote:Right now, this court has a choice... they can become the new FIFA or, just maybe, you can all transcend their filthy, rotten, corrupted, disgusting and sickeningly ignorant ways to become an exemplary model of the the ideal decision makers that the football world deserves. I am sure, that as Arsenal supporters you are more than up to the task. Phoenix Wright is counting on you...

for once i agree with the oppostion, Arsenal fans you have a choice, you can become like FIFA and hide behind pretty wordes and false logic as a means of masking your acceptance of flawed and untrue information, or you can become what this football forum needs, a group of fans who are able to analyse information presented to them and come to a logical, just and ultimately correct decision, and i have faith this community of suporters can do just that

Again id like to congratulate spider on his victory

by Forza Sat May 19, 2012 3:30 am

This is all crap and you know it fatman.

Common law is a very valuable source of authority and since I don't see any statutes around here, it is the best we've got. European civil law systems also have some features of this system.

Who is the judge? In the absence of the Honourable Chief Justice RealGunner, the jury must take over in decision-making. That is essentially what you guys have been doing for every other game this season- coming to a consensus after considering the facts. Fatman has also pointed out that this is an international forum, but seems to be blissfully unaware of the existence of International Law. :facepalm:

~~~

Not only did my client believe he had won the competition at that time, the rest of the community also believed that. It was only later that an inquiry was commenced which brought about the uncertainty you mentioned. There would be no reason to argue this if my client was not confident that they had won at the time.

Whilst it might seem nice to intrude and stamp across the rule of law, it is ridiculous to bring evidence to the court so late in the piece. There are good reasons for this other that the jurisprudential ones I mentioned in my previous submission. If it may please the court, I would like to pre-empt any decision and ask that you take into consideration the serious emotional distress that would be caused to my client in the event that he loses this contest...

~~~

After believing, and hoping for so long that today that he, the lowly underdog would finally rise up and sit equal atop the glorious Throne of Prediction Champions, it will all be taken away. Where is the justice in that gentlemen, where? In your hearts, and in your minds, you know that the right thing to do is to affirm your fellow man's dreams, his aspirations, and recognise him, as he would've done for you. You all know what that feels like, to be grasping for the top, with one hand on the edge of Everest - the glory, the passion, the adrenaline coursing through your body - but then, suddenly an avalanche comes out of nowhere and tears you from the mountain, tumbling down, down, into the abyss...

...your bones are broken, your resolve is broken, your dreams are seemingly shattered. But you're not dead yet. Then, out of the corner of your eye, you see a silhouette of a by passer with a backpack...

...the question is, if you put yourself in the by passer's shoes; do you leave the fallen man there to perish, or do you throw a rope down the chasm?

2011/2012 Arsenal Prediction Game - Page 8 Hqdefault

by beatrixasdfghjk. Sat May 19, 2012 4:05 am

beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:The first minute is between 00:00 and 00:59, and thus the fifty-fifth minute is between 54:00 and 54:59. I maintain the goal was scored in the fifty-fifth minute.

fatman123 wrote:this int the first time you've seen footage of the goal being scored before the 55th minute, may i remind evveryone that you yourself posted a video of the goal in question being scored before the 55th minute, all the evidence provided by mani88 does is reaffirm an argument presented by you, which supports my stance

This man's ignorant statements only serve to demonstrate that he has not read the prosecution's case. Once again, I ask to disregard his defence.

by fatman123 Sat May 19, 2012 5:41 am

ive said all that i need to say and im not going to bother with your ignorant aruments, ill leave it all down to the Arsenal fans, jayp in particular, to decide

by MJ Sat May 19, 2012 8:59 am

When I win it next year, I'l be sure to do it by a good 100 points to avoid all this nonsense going on up in here.

by mani88 Sat May 19, 2012 9:19 am

2011/2012 Arsenal Prediction Game - Page 8 Vlcsna10

The ball have not only crossed the line but has hit the net too. Check the time at this moment

by beatrixasdfghjk. Sat May 19, 2012 9:45 am

beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Please wait for my lawyer to contact you.

by Spider Sat May 19, 2012 11:23 am

Come on beatrixasdfghjk Admit it , YOU KILLED HER !!!

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