Should Barca copy Spains defensive organisation?

I have had this thought during the whole of the Euro's watching Spain, watching how with the use if the double pivot they managed to shut down the likes of France, Portugal and Italy with Arbeloa part of the defense which earns my whole hearted respect. Then you look at their record of not conceding a single knockout goal since the great Zidane in 2006 and you wonder how could a team, which basically has the same/worse defense then Barca(Alves-Puyol-Pique-Abidal>Arbeloa-Pique-Ramos-Alba) keep out Benzema-Ribery, Ronaldo-Nani and Cassano-Balotell in consecutive games? People critize the double pivot of making Spain boring and they do win 1-0 alot, but could you imagine Messi integrated into that system? Games would be more 2/3-0 but the 0 is important. Despite Barce having the better defense we conceded goals in every big game last season(Chelsea, Milan, Leverkuson etc), especially on the counter, with the rare exception of Ronaldo's chance in the semis you rarely see Spain caught like we were last season.

Contd...


Especially the Chelsea games where we were attacking so much that we got caught, which was what lost us the game, not just because Chelsea parked the bus. Alves was no where to be seen in the first leg for the counter and both Chelsea goals being on the counter in the 2nd leg. I'm all for going all out attack in La Liga but we need to be more defensively sound in Europe, a double pivot would solve this, and with Messi team we would play more like Spain did on Sunday, irresitable, but also im(n)penetrable. This Spain defense being able to keep out top players whist we can't keep out Neverkuson is a disgrace, gets under my skin. People say it can't work, no width(lol), Spain just won a WC and european championship using it. Holland, France, Russia, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Paraguay. Robben, Benzema, Arshavin, Ronaldo, Ozil, Cassano, Cardoza could not score against this team.

I will say one thing though... The attacks at this Euro might have had Benz, Ronaldo etc in them but none of them were really that good. Benz was hopeless and CR was invisible against spain. The forward-lines Barca play against are on another level.

I must say their record is impressive but I don't want to make a knee jerk judgment after the final. I wouldn't really want to see a double-pivot at Barca at all.

Only thing I would be happy with is flipping the triangle when we are ahead and want more security. Eg.

Xavi/Thiago-Busquets
Fabregas

I wouldn't ever really want to see us play with Masch and Busquets though.

True, they may not have been at their best, especially Benzema, no idea where his head was, but Ronaldo had just destroyed Holland and the Czechs, whilst Nani had been back to form, Cassano with Mario were amazing, especially in the game before versus Germany, Holland had outplayed Brazil in the run to facing Spain in the WC final, led by Robben and Sneijder who were brilliant that tournament.

All failed to show up and failed to play against Spain, or were they just allowed to? It's no coincidence that all teams who looked good throughout the tournaments suddenly couldn't play their best when they faced Spain, they couldn't, Germany is a prime example having destroyed England and Argentina before facing Spain.

I just think the double pivot gets bad rep because its become associated with "boring" football, which is not actually boring. I do agree that Busquets and Masch in the double pivot together is a big no-no though.

No, Barca should stay out of the double pivot. We have enough quality to play better than that and we've managed to make other world class players invisible as well without it. In my opinion Barca should not look at Spain for advice, but quite the other way around.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:No, Barca should stay out of the double pivot. We have enough quality to play better than that and we've managed to make other world class players invisible as well without it. In my opinion Barca should not look at Spain for advice, but quite the other way around.

Spain can't replicate Barcelona, one big difference. Messi. The amount of space he creates for players is the biggest difference. Plus the width on the right not created by Arbeloa. Notice how Spain did much betetr once the width was created by Alba, that width wasn't there since the WC and that is why they were getting demolished and predictable in frinedlies.

All Barcelona need is width and players to strecth the defence horizontally, in order to create space for Messi to rape like he did in 10/11. He will get less goals but the team will be less predictable.

Preditability was what killed us last season, we had become so one dimensional it was unreal. We ended up passing the ball going no where, we probabaly should have played a more direct style like Spain did on Sunday, that would have done the opponents. Instead we ended up playing like Arsenal.

Last season our 3 main forwards were perpetually injured. That
s what made us predictable.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Last season our 3 main forwards were perpetually injured. That
s what made us predictable.

This. No width, constantluy going through the middle. Messi had to go as deep as busquets to get the ball and had a wall of 7 players, not even he is that good.

Exactly, it was the perfect time to employ the double pivot, play Messi false nine, and go direct. Our possesion would have been lower but even with a higher possession we conceded 5(3 Chelsea, 2 Madrid). We would not have conceded a few of those goals thats for sure.

Before people get confused when I say direct I dont mean hoofball. Basically play the ball foward more, and not constantly sidewards and back like we do when were at our worst. The average fan may say its boring(lol) like the English said of Spain, they weren't saying that after Sunday though

Jonathan28 wrote:Exactly, it was the perfect time to employ the double pivot, play Messi false nine, and go direct. Our possesion would have been lower but even with a higher possession we conceded 5(3 Chelsea, 2 Madrid). We would not have conceded a few of those goals thats for sure.

Before people get confused when I say direct I dont mean hoofball. Basically play the ball foward more, and not constantly sidewards and back like we do when were at our worst. The average fan may say its boring(lol) like the English said of Spain, they weren't saying that after Sunday though

Thye weren t saying that after sunday because italy were open and treid to attack spain leaving gaps. Most team that played spain have set out very defensively hence why spain had to be extra patient and more cautious to avoid the counter. Tiki taka is about patience and probing for gaps.

Barcelona will never play a double pivote. When yu have players like Xavi, iniesta, Cesc, Thiago, Busquets it would be a disgrace.

Barca's pressing and defending is much better than Spain's. Barca don't allow the opposition any time on the ball, which is how it should be. Also there's no need for a double pivot. 4-3-3 has worked well for Barca.

Thing is though Jibers, all those players play for Spain, who use the double pivot, bar Thiago, they had to bare the whole world calling them boring, and proved them all wrong, I think they would want to prove the haters wrong again at club level too.

Mtfootball, 4-3-3 has worked for us yes, but we hardly used it, Pep was obsessesd with the 3-4-3 last season just to fit in Cesc.

Jonathan28 wrote:Thing is though Jibers, all those players play for Spain, who use the double pivot, bar Thiago, they had to bare the whole world calling them boring, and proved them all wrong, I think they would want to prove the haters wrong again at club level too.

Mtfootball, 4-3-3 has worked for us yes, but we hardly used it, Pep was obsessesd with the 3-4-3 last season just to fit in Cesc.

As I said they didnt prove anything wrong, Italy played open and got demolished, no team has played Spain that way sicen Euro 2008. Most teams sit back and Thats why Spain have to probe, Teams do that for Barcelona, difference is, Barcelona have LIONEL MESSI

1. Messi
2. Double pivot
3. ????
4. Profit?

In all seriousness I think it would help us in european matches, we'll have this discussion later on in the season I guess.

No.

Why?

Because International football is a whole league down from CL/league football. Not to mention that-as jibers said- it would be a shame for Barca to play a double pivot with the players we have.

I see no need to change from what we had last year. What we had last year did decently overall and without such bad luck with injuries, then it could have been a great year.

The systems fine, IMO the system doesn't need changing.

When i was watching euro i thought how teams can be so weak. Clubs are way better than national teams, most national players see each other first time or 3-4 times in a season at national team, while in club they play together every day. only spain is different and they destroy all, but that spain team would fail in club football so that spain defense must be proven in club football before we take lesson from them

Are we making threads just to annoy me or something lol

What are we talking about copying Spain for.

Who wants to copy inferior teams facing inferior opponants.

What the hell you talking about double pivot for? Its shit.

*Sigh* Gonna have to take my ideas to Barcaforum then

Sorry mate but it dont make any sense.

Why would we want to copy anything of anyone? Spain copy us, because we are the reference.

More importantly, why would we copy a team which isnt as good as us and has many more problems then us?

Minus Italy and Ireland, they were shockingly average all tournament.

A double pivot makes no sense, especially for us. Look at Spain, sidepassing back and forth because they have less targets further forward.

Jonathan28 wrote:We ended up passing the ball going no where, we probabaly should have played a more direct style like Spain did on Sunday, that would have done the opponents. Instead we ended up playing like Arsenal.

Do you watch Arsenal? They play a much more direct football than Barcelona. Much more all out shall I say, hence being known for their strong offence and weak defence. I completely disagree that Arsenal are as predictable as Barcelona. They create width alright.

mtfootball wrote:Barca's pressing and defending is much better than Spain's. Barca don't allow the opposition any time on the ball, which is how it should be. Also there's no need for a double pivot. 4-3-3 has worked well for Barca.

Actually, I was far less impressed by Barcelona's pressing this season than a couple of seasons ago. Pressing comes with a few issues:

1. It doesn't involve one or two forwards pressing, it is the whole team pressing. It can be an extremely tiresome task if you can't keep possession for long. Just look at Madrid trying it in Copa second leg. By second half they looked completely jaded despite allowing Barcelona only 56% possession (a record low for Guardiola) compared to 73% possession they had in the first leg.
   
2. Pressing high leaves gaps at the back. Playing a high defensive line means you need quick defenders and a very organised back line to play the offside trap.

I don't know if I can explain Barcelona's less-impressive pressing in 2011-12, one may not agree with my statement in the first place - however having slower centre backs or converted ones as well as a having small squad (compared to 2008-09) and having to avoid risking injuries and fatigue may have had a hand.

We don't press as well as we did in 08/09 because we don't have Eto'o. That guy had such a will to win that he would utterly shut down the opposition. When we sold him to Inter we also sold our first line of pressure. Messi doesn't really do it, Villa tried to do it and exhausted himself, Pedro is probably the best we have at it but not as good as Eto'o.

Also Dani, the double pivot is something which seems to make more sense if you take my path of thinking. I drew some diagrams yesterday where I tried to demostrate how the players would be positioned and filled it with arrows showing player passing positions and defensive/offensive runs, areas of the pitch to pressure etc, which I was gonna upload on here then I reslised it would just confuse people so much.

I wonder if its possible to mail it to Tito though...

Jonathan28 wrote:We don't press as well as we did in 08/09 because we don't have Eto'o. That guy had such a will to win that he would utterly shut down the opposition. When we sold him to Inter we also sold our first line of pressure. Messi doesn't really do it, Villa tried to do it and exhausted himself, Pedro is probably the best we have at it but not as good as Eto'o.

Also Dani, the double pivot is something which seems to make more sense if you take my path of thinking. I drew some diagrams yesterday where I tried to demostrate how the players would be positioned and filled it with arrows showing player passing positions and defensive/offensive runs, areas of the pitch to pressure etc, which I was gonna upload on here then I reslised it would just confuse people so much.

I wonder if its possible to mail it to Tito though...

Barcelona 09 did not press anywhere near the level of 10 or 11. Eto has always harried defenders but it was nowhere near assytematic and structured as 2011. Did you watch Barcelona in 09?

Pressing is about a team and not 1 player. In 11 Messi pressed. As people have said, a double pivote is not the Barcelona way.

Double pivot doesn't provide a sufficient amount of pressing like Barcelona do in the years of 2010 and especially in 2011. Imo, double pivot is only useful when your securing a lead in which Barca can look to Kieta to do that if we want to.

Keita is not and will never be a DM.