Re: Is La Liga dead?

by eelir Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:48 pm

Nameless wrote:
eelir wrote:
The Messiah wrote:
eelir wrote:Why do you quote me without anything? You got something to say, say it. Every team has a player who dives and cheats, RM have them Bayern have them. the topic is not about that. And not all barca fans defend what's happening. Try and read a bit instead of just quoting and reposting. Your post number does not make you a better then the rest. Grow up!

I am more concerned about the TV deals to be honest with you, I also feel to an extent Madrid and Barcelona can pretty much get away with anything in La-Liga that's the reason why other teams can not challenge, among many other reasons, like Play-acting, cheating, Referee and officials helps Barcelona, Madrid Arrogant and many other things associated with their fans.

How can the league be competitive when Madrid and Barcelona gets so much help, particularly Barcelona.

Are you for real? Barca and RM get more calls on their way in contrast to other teams, but separating Barca from RM is ridiculous to say the least. Especially last season. I dont wann discuss this thing but you are way off with this.

There are two main problems with la liga as it is:

1. Most important, la liga teams do not know how to manage money and they screw up.

2. TV money contract is ridiculous.
Oh so Madrid was helped by refs to retain the league, is it?. Tell me a game where we needed refs help to win a game.

Dude, i am with you on this one. I am saying that both RM and Barca get favors when playing with small teams. And you cant differentiate one or the other, especially in the long run. Although i do not follow other leagues that much i think it happens everywhere with big teams playing small ones. But in no way i see this as a problem of other teams not winning la liga.

by The Messiah Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:51 pm

I think Barcelona gets more favour, it's quite obvious. Madrid doesn't even get any favour or whatsoever on the field, I just feel they are arrogant people

by the xcx Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:52 pm

This is not really a thread about who gets more favors. Go away

by rwo power Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:22 pm

The Franchise wrote:Please get off the high horse.

Bayern have a tax on buying every half decent player in Germany year after year and have done for aslong as I can remember.

Talking of "tax"... AFAIK La Liga only needs to pay a largely reduced tax when compared to Bundesliga, EPL or Serie A, IIRC...

by Onyx Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:38 pm

So if other clubs get better TV deals, their games can be shown instead of Real Madrid/Barca games?

by gondov Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:05 pm

The Messiah wrote:I think Barcelona gets more favour, it's quite obvious. Madrid doesn't even get any favour or whatsoever on the field, I just feel they are arrogant people

I feel fans from other leagues who "feel" an injustice in laliga basically fear the might of Barca and would like for their reign to end.

Dont tell me you really feel for the fans of Osasuna or Zaragoza. The likes of messi, iniesta, xavi are not the product of some unfair TV rights deal.

by Harmonica Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:29 pm

Nameless wrote:
eelir wrote:
The Messiah wrote:
eelir wrote:Why do you quote me without anything? You got something to say, say it. Every team has a player who dives and cheats, RM have them Bayern have them. the topic is not about that. And not all barca fans defend what's happening. Try and read a bit instead of just quoting and reposting. Your post number does not make you a better then the rest. Grow up!

I am more concerned about the TV deals to be honest with you, I also feel to an extent Madrid and Barcelona can pretty much get away with anything in La-Liga that's the reason why other teams can not challenge, among many other reasons, like Play-acting, cheating, Referee and officials helps Barcelona, Madrid Arrogant and many other things associated with their fans.

How can the league be competitive when Madrid and Barcelona gets so much help, particularly Barcelona.

Are you for real? Barca and RM get more calls on their way in contrast to other teams, but separating Barca from RM is ridiculous to say the least. Especially last season. I dont wann discuss this thing but you are way off with this.

There are two main problems with la liga as it is:

1. Most important, la liga teams do not know how to manage money and they screw up.

2. TV money contract is ridiculous.
Oh so Madrid was helped by refs to retain the league, is it?. Tell me a game where we needed refs help to win a game.

I'll help you, type scandal in la liga in the search, should provide couple hours of material. lol

by jibers Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:37 pm

MAdrid got way more help this season it was embaarasasing. The season before it was Barcelona. I guess the refs back who they think will win. Madrid got away with Pepe and Ramos elbows and got away with so many oenalties whereas Barcelona got nothing for so many legit penalties.

Jiopsi show the gifs ffs

by The Franchise Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:57 pm

The Messiah wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Please get off the high horse.

Bayern have a tax on buying every half decent player in Germany year after year and have done for aslong as I can remember.

Dortmund got more money than us this season, we don't embosom all Bundesliga TV money like Barcelona and Real Madrid. merchandising, Tickets etc is sufficient for us, no need to cheat smaller clubs because you can.

What a disgraceful league, that's why I don't watch it. I rather watch Coca cola championship, it has more prestige and honour than La Liga.

Completely not my point. Your sitting there preaching high and mighty, but Bayern are offenders themselves.

You guys rape the entire rest of your league for players whenever they get good enough. You monopolize the leagues talents year after year and noone can stand up to you.

by The Franchise Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:00 pm

jibers wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Shame shit, different year.

Barcelona and Madrid are very good. 3rd best team cant just keep it. Would be more or less the same in any other league.

Valencia, Bilbao, Atletico and so on lose their players and so on, but yet, manage to outplay their European rivals pretty often.

Small clubs like Depor and Villareal being that high were fantastic for them, but freaks of nature with a combination of amazing coaches, under the radar talented players and then the weakening of other clubs various seasons.

You cant expect that to happen every season, or even very often.

Uh huh. based on what? This Real and Barcelona will win every league is based on what? their domination of the champions league...o wait... Real were outplayed by Bayern et thety will somhow win different leagues wih different styles.

Maybe you should try better to comprehend my point.

Barca and Madrid are the two best La Liga teams are they not?

Okay, now take out the best two teams from England last season (Utd and City), the two best from Serie A (Milan and Juve), the two best from Germany (Bayern and Dortmund), the best from Portugal (Benfica and Porto) and so on, replace those 2 best teams with Barca and Madrid and the exact same thing happens in those leagues, either Barca or Madrid (or both) dominate and win, fair TV deals or not.

by The Franchise Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:04 pm

Gil wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Shame shit, different year.

Barcelona and Madrid are very good. 3rd best team cant just keep it. Would be more or less the same in any other league.

Valencia, Bilbao, Atletico and so on lose their players and so on, but yet, manage to outplay their European rivals pretty often.

Small clubs like Depor and Villareal being that high were fantastic for them, but freaks of nature with a combination of amazing coaches, under the radar talented players and then the weakening of other clubs various seasons.

You cant expect that to happen every season, or even very often.

Not buying that sorry.

Explain why La Liga clubs outside of Barca and Madrid have struggled in the CL if that was the case.

And I seriously doubt Valencia would still be 30 points behind Barca if they could afford to keep their best players in Villa, Mata, Albiol, Silva, Alba etc.

Of course Valencia wouldnt be 30 points behind with all those players, but at some point they had the trio of Villa, Mata, Silva and a somewhat good Albiol and still they got steamrolled.

La Liga clubs struggles in the CL? Yes, they havent done well results wise, but if anyone bothered watchign the games you can see they have been quite unlucky. I seen a watered down Valencia team outplay both you and Man Utd. Besides, my point wasnt that the 3rd and 4th teams in La Liga (those CL teams) are of a higher standard than the 3rd and 4th in the PL for example, however I think the depth from 3 to 8 as a totality stacks up with anything else in Europe.

Maybe you would cast of what Bilbao did to Man Utd as luck mixed with Man Utd not caring as much, but I would argue that quality wise that is exactly what they are capable of.

by StrikingMidfield Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:55 pm

The question "Is La Liga dead" can really only be answered in one way. Is a league that's extremely top heavy dead? Personally I think it is, because when one of two teams will consistently win the league it's not really a league anymore. It could be compared to the Scottish league right now, with Celtic and Rangers winning every year.

by juventus101 Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:34 pm

La liga has always been the kost overrated league just because of Barca and Real. Especially recently. Theyve rarely if ever beem the best league in the world, and not at all recently. After Barca and Real, theyre all mainly scrubs. Premier League, Bundesliva, and Serie A are all stronger than them. Premier League and Serie A have been the best leagues of all time by far.

by Onyx Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:23 am

Serie A could be considered better because teams are at a similar level. None of the clubs are elite anymore.

by The Messiah Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:18 am

The Franchise wrote:
The Messiah wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Please get off the high horse.

Bayern have a tax on buying every half decent player in Germany year after year and have done for aslong as I can remember.

Dortmund got more money than us this season, we don't embosom all Bundesliga TV money like Barcelona and Real Madrid. merchandising, Tickets etc is sufficient for us, no need to cheat smaller clubs because you can.

What a disgraceful league, that's why I don't watch it. I rather watch Coca cola championship, it has more prestige and honour than La Liga.

Completely not my point. Your sitting there preaching high and mighty, but Bayern are offenders themselves.

You guys rape the entire rest of your league for players whenever they get good enough. You monopolize the leagues talents year after year and noone can stand up to you.

Oh...thesame way Barcelona bought Alba, Villa, Adriano.

and to be fair, we pay all club their full asking price, we dont try to bully people into contract like Barcelona did with Fabregas, Sanchez, Mascherano, and now Song.

em what do you have to say now that I'm exposing your club...? I still have a lot more to say.

by izzy Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:36 am

juventus101 wrote:La liga has always been the kost overrated league just because of Barca and Real. Especially recently. Theyve rarely if ever beem the best league in the world, and not at all recently. After Barca and Real, theyre all mainly scrubs. Premier League, Bundesliva, and Serie A are all stronger than them. Premier League and Serie A have been the best leagues of all time by far.

The Messiah wrote:Oh...thesame way Barcelona bought Alba, Villa, Adriano.

and to be fair, we pay all club their full asking price, we dont try to bully people into contract like Barcelona did with Fabregas, Sanchez, Mascherano, and now Song.

em what do you have to say now that I'm exposing your club...? I still have a lot more to say.

Is La Liga dead? - Page 2 80226-Retard-Horse-HERP-DERP

by BarrileteCosmico Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:59 am

Over the last 10 years, Spanish teams have won the EL 5 times - a feat that no Italian, English or German team has managed in the same decade. Both finalists of the Europa league were Spanish this year, but they're a team of scrubs :facepalm:

Some of you need to get a grip. They're not fantastic, but they're not toilet paper either. Most of you only watch them when they play against Barca or Madrid, and they are made to naturally look worse than they are because the gap in quality is so big. Put Barca or Madrid against an equivalent team in any other league and they wouldn't look much better.

by Real Kandahar Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:02 am

The Messiah wrote:With Madrid and Barcelona around, La Liga is dead.

captain obvious..

by Real Kandahar Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:03 am

The Messiah wrote:I can't believe Barcelona and Madrid fans can manage to defend this injustice, it's not surprising at all.

Fact: Cheating, Diving and Play acting is part of Barcelona as much as Arrogant, delusion and losing to Bayern Munich all of the time is part of Madrid.

uhm... #DidNotRead

by Lord Hades Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:53 am

StrikingMidfield wrote:The question "Is La Liga dead" can really only be answered in one way. Is a league that's extremely top heavy dead? Personally I think it is, because when one of two teams will consistently win the league it's not really a league anymore. It could be compared to the Scottish league right now, with Celtic and Rangers winning every year.

you do know that before your noisy neighbours won it in the last 20 seconds the title would have been shared between united or chelsea as it had been since 2004 right?

by che Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:11 am

been dead for a long time... this season will be even worse, malaga are disintegrating, bilbao selling their best player and replacing him with aduriz, and this is our likely starting lineup for the season opener:

alves - pereira, rami (who played 60 minutes of football in all of preseason), ruiz, lago - gago, tino - feg, jonas, guardado - valdez

that just screams "wait for us segunda, we're coming"

by FennecFox7 Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:45 am

che don't hate on my boy fegoulhi. He'll deliver the goods :coffee:

by The Franchise Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:45 am

The Messiah wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
The Messiah wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Please get off the high horse.

Bayern have a tax on buying every half decent player in Germany year after year and have done for aslong as I can remember.

Dortmund got more money than us this season, we don't embosom all Bundesliga TV money like Barcelona and Real Madrid. merchandising, Tickets etc is sufficient for us, no need to cheat smaller clubs because you can.

What a disgraceful league, that's why I don't watch it. I rather watch Coca cola championship, it has more prestige and honour than La Liga.

Completely not my point. Your sitting there preaching high and mighty, but Bayern are offenders themselves.

You guys rape the entire rest of your league for players whenever they get good enough. You monopolize the leagues talents year after year and noone can stand up to you.

Oh...thesame way Barcelona bought Alba, Villa, Adriano.

and to be fair, we pay all club their full asking price, we dont try to bully people into contract like Barcelona did with Fabregas, Sanchez, Mascherano, and now Song.

em what do you have to say now that I'm exposing your club...? I still have a lot more to say.

Do you have reading/comprehension problems or something?

by Doc Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:24 pm

Bullying into contract?! My little understanding is that a club needs to meet the asking price of the other club to get legal permission to enter into contractual arrangements with a player. To my knowledge, Barcelona did that with Arsenal (Fabregas), Udinese (Sanchez) and Liverpool (Mascherano).

Or am I using too much logic with that flippy floppy poster?!

by gondov Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:05 pm

Please read if you want to undestand whats really going on in Laliga, dont just blame barca and madrid

It’s not difficult to pass judgment on the Spanish national football association, LFP (Liga de Fútbol Profesional). In fact it’s not even that difficult. Whether it’s burying their head in the sand when it comes to racism, the refereeing quality and controversy in Spain, or the simple fact they cannot schedule La Liga matches more than 2 weeks in advance, the LFP has, rightly, many critics.

Financially, the LFP have dropped the ball, almost criminally. In January 2012, the fantastic blogger Swiss Ramble published a piece on Juventus, part of it focused on the benefit of the 2010/11 collective bargaining TV deal Serie A negotiated. At that point in time, La Liga had the 4th most valuable TV deal in Europe. Obviously England had the highest, with a domestic deal of nigh 800 million pounds (recently that has been renegotiated to 1 billion annually) and overseas distribution of an additional 500 million (approximately 1.3 billion total), but I was shocked to learn that Spain now ranked behind both Italy and most alarmingly France. In fact, Serie A’s total television rights surpassed the 1 billion pound mark, with nearly 90% of that domestic rights. France totaled just short of 700 million total, while La Liga barely broke the 600 million mark. In simple terms, La Liga’s total TV rights were worth less than 50% of England and barely 60% of Italy. Real Madrid and FC Barcelona are the two richest football clubs. In Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi they have the two most marketable players in world football. Spain and its players are right now gods of the sport. The Premier League has fantastic players, but the best football players in the game on average reside at the Bernabeu and Camp Nou. When these two football clubs square up, the 22 players on the pitch are without argument the crème de la crème of the game, worldclass star side by side to worldclass star. The international explosion of FC Barcelona in the last 8 years, combined with the already established Real Madrid, is the biggest chip on the metaphoric European football table, and the league simply has not capitalized on it. Everyone upstairs is comfy with how it is, why put in effort and rock the boat.

But not everyone is happy. La Liga itself is actually rather unhappy. Total La Liga debt in 2011 totaled over 3.5 billion Euros and it had the worst debt coverage (revenue to debt) over the major 5 European leagues by quite some margin. This season, clubs are threatening to strike again, because at the moment the reality is too many of the smaller clubs are simply not paying their players, they cannot afford it.

Friday August 10th the LFP called an emergency meeting convening of the General Assembly for August 14th under pressure from 13 clubs (Athletic Bilbao, Atletico Madrid, Real Betis, Celta, Espanyol, Getafe, Granada, Mallorca, Osasuna, Rayo Vallecano, Real Sociedad, Sevilla, and Zaragoza) threatening to refuse participating in this year’s season. The order of business tomorrow, attended by all clubs in La Liga and the 22 from Segunda will deal with a few trivial constitutional matters, but the crux of the meeting is around the TV deal.

Of the 2011/12 the 655 million euro TV rights (slightly above the previous year’s amount), 280 million (43%) went to Real Madrid and FC Barcelona (140 each), lowly Real Sociedad got 13 million. Yes, one can argue fairly enough capitalistically, free markets and all, that as Real and Barça are the selling points of La Liga they are entitled to the majority. But the issue appears beyond that now. If La Liga does not follow a collective bargaining agreement, like every other major league, the trend is going to continue. Nobody will be able to compete with the giants, and if the top Spanish players aren’t at the big 2, they will look elsewhere like David Silva, Juan Mata, and Santi Cazorla have, and like Fernando Llorente appears set to do. Clubs will threaten to strike year after year, but because crumbs are better than nothing, will soon fold.

What Juventus showed quite elegantly is that a collective bargaining agreement does not mean less for everyone. Despite their fears of losing 9 million in revenue, the new deal boosted it by 23. Under the collective agreements in Italy and England, the majority of the money still favors the big clubs. Whether it’s done on a “merit” basis in England or based on number of fans, city population, and recent history like Italy, La Liga can formulate a deal that will eventually still see Real Madrid and Barcelona winners, but end seeing others as essentially losers.

The solution lies less in how to divide the pie, and more in increasing the size of the pie. I’m sorry, but the league with the two best football clubs on the planet should not be trailing Italy and France in terms of TV value. It’s simply illogical. Real and Barça won’t earn the stellar 140 million like years gone by, but a number near or above 100 is quite realistic. If Ligue 1 can be sold for 700 million back in 2011, is it fantasy to believe La Liga is worth at least 1 billion? Last year, the Manchester clubs took about 6.5% each, amounting to about 95 million pounds. The English deal is the most equal sharing, so if La Liga, as it likely will, uses more Italian measures like number of fans and past performance to favor the historic super-clubs, Barcelona could expect reasonably a 10% slice. If that pie is 1 billion, that’s 100 million annually.

Real Madrid and FC Barcelona have advantage enough in commercial prowess, business support, and inevitable European spoils. Sandro Rosell has rightly stressed that Barça needs to protect itself against the privately owned super wealthy clubs, correctly so. But with UEFA FFP coming into place, and whispers of an even stricter Premier League financial model, the unfair advantage of the ‘sugardaddy’ club should lessen over time. I personally hope, and I also believe, a collective deal is soon on the cards. Let’s hope today’s meeting is the starting point. Audi are still going to give each and every FC Barcelona player another new car this season, that won’t happen at Rayo Vallecano, new TV deal or not. But a better negotiated, more equitably divided deal can at least see players from Rayo and many other such clubs at least pay their players on time, not months, even years late. It’s about time the LFP stand up and see La Liga for what it is worth, sell it as such, and put an end to annual preseason bickering. All the ingredients are there, it’s only effort and guile missing.

by The Messiah Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:37 pm

Doc wrote:Bullying into contract?! My little understanding is that a club needs to meet the asking price of the other club to get legal permission to enter into contractual arrangements with a player. To my knowledge, Barcelona did that with Arsenal (Fabregas), Udinese (Sanchez) and Liverpool (Mascherano).

Or am I using too much logic with that flippy floppy poster?!

You can bully a club into contract by consistently making bid for a player they dont want to sell, especially if the player is an idiot like Mascherano or a glory hunter like Fabregas.

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